MTGNexus

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

All of these problems stem from the fact that WOTC makes format-shaping decision and developments behind closed doors and without the help of the community. Play Design was supposed to help with that but... well, that also gave us likely the single worst year in all of Magic across every format.

One of the reasons Commander has been so successful, not just because of being a casual format, but because it's managed by an open tribunal of people, including taking input from several community members, that is separate from WOTC and their design teams. There is discussion and consensus about what to do, how to act, or if anything is needed at all among people deeply invested (financially, emotionally, etc) in the format, and they have a deep wealth of knowledge specifically about Commander. Out of the history of the format, there have only been a few head-scratchers, and for the most part is revered as excellently managed. It's what happens when you have transparency and community input, instead of behind-closed-doors, circular-logic, lacking-perspective, echo-chamber management WOTC uses for everything else.

It's definitely pushed me pretty much out of Modern indefinitely and laser focused on Commander in paper and Pioneer on MTGO. And unless something drastically changes, I expect many others to follow suit.

The community is incapable of helping here. Deck building skills, which are the primary determinant in cards needing banned, are declining among the player base especially with communities becoming much more fractured. Hogaak is an example here, Wizards got that one wrong and then the deck got better using cards that were already available. Death's Shadow experienced the same thing when Gitaxian Probe was banned, and DS was the deck that got that card banned.

Wizards can't catch these things, and players sit complacent and then build a stronger deck once they're forced to.

Commander maintains what it is, because it doesn't push a competitive scene. Once you add the ability for people to compete in the format and sell it as being a professional job, you fundamentally change the sort of pressure the format has on it. This is the reason why Legacy gets so few bans. The format is incredibly unhealthy but it doesn't have enough pressure to make that obvious.

Aazadan wrote: ↑

4 years ago

repeated short term solutions is a guaranteed format killer, faster than not using any such solutions is.

Do you have historical evidence to back up this claim? I find it hard to believe that you have the confidence to make this claim when 2019 Modern is in the lousiest state it's been since Eldrazi Winter.

Aazadan wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Death's Shadow experienced the same thing when Gitaxian Probe was banned, and DS was the deck that got that card banned

Infect was a bigger factor in getting probe banned than Shadow Zoo.

Everyone remember to vote in the Ban/unban poll!
And tweet to @mtgaaron!

Ban poll: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22437
Unban poll: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22436

Ban urza lands, oko, urza, prized amalgam and narcomoeba. Switch to weekly ban list adjustments and and see what the field looks like.

Modern needs a reboot. If you start from the first set the RL was abolished you get:

Mercadian Masques: Dust Bowl Land Grant, Counterspell, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Gush, Snuff Out, Food Chain, Invigorate, Rishadan Port, Misdirection
Nemesis: Daze, Accumulated Knowledge, Tangle Wire, Massacre, Reverent Silence
Prophecy: Rhystic Study, Overburden, Rhystic Tutor
Invasion: Sterling Grove, Aura Shards, Disrupt
Planeshift: Hull Breach, Orim's Chant, Destructive Flow
Apocalypse: Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Gerrard's Verdict, Overgrown Estate, Fire/Ice, Evasive Action, Sylvan Messenger
Odyssey: Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Tainted Pact, Innocent Blood, Standstill, Wild Mongrel, Entomb, Terravore, Divert,
Torment: Cabal Ritual, Cabal Coffers, Chainer's Edict, Basking Rootwalla, Circular Logic, Deep Analysis, Ichorid, Breakthrough
Judgment: Cabal Therapy, Burning Wish, Living Wish, Cunning Wish, Solitary Confinement, Wonder, Nantuko Monastery
Onslaught: Chain of Vaport, Birchlore Rangers, Steely Resolve, Words of Wind, Unholy Grotto, Riptide Laboratory
Legions: All the slivers, Gempalm Incinerator, Glowrider
Scourge: Tendrils of Agony, Brainfreeze, Undead Warchief, Stifle, Wirewood Symbiote, Form of the Dragon

Then you start with a no-banlist reboot and go from there just like Pioneer. With cards like Stifle, Daze, Rishadan Port, Standstill, Gerrard's Verdict, Vindicate, AK, Tangle Wire, Divert, Disrupt, Destructive Flow, Pernicious Deed, Terravore I bet archetypes that have been dead in Modern since the start of the format would revive like Landstill, White Prison, Blue Delver tempo decks, Deadguy Ale, Scepter Chant, UG Madness and many more. Some cards completely destroy Tron and other degenerate decks which currently lack answers.

gkourou wrote: ↑

4 years ago

In all of that, we have the results of Modern Championship and it's an Urzafest really.

PS: Ban Urza, Oko, see where we go from there. The time has come.

82036408_673524839846456_4173746980851286016_n.jpg

I am more surprised to see at least 39 people showed up.

I'm convinced the format will be fine by the end of january. They'll probably ban oko. And then your tarmogoyfs and snapcasters and lightning bolts will go back to being playable. I'm not selling anything. I'm not really buying anything either. I'll just continue playing every other week at a small shop with pet decks like mardu pyromancer or titanshift.

Obviously we use this forum to vent frustrations. But I always remind myself, what I'm trying to achieve out of playing. I think it's nice to get out of the house for an evening and play for a few hours and maybe win something.

If the format were better and I had more free time I'd be more inclined to grind larger events. Speculate on cards too. But the entry fees and payouts on these events have steadily gotten worse over the years.

Goyf? Bolts? Snaps in UW T3feri Prison...maybe.

If you think is Oko alone that is the issue, well I disagree.

True-Name Nemesis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Do you have historical evidence to back up this claim? I find it hard to believe that you have the confidence to make this claim when 2019 Modern is in the lousiest state it's been since Eldrazi Winter.

There's some problematic cards right now, but out of the issues in Modern that's about the 5th or 6th most pressing issue to the formats long term sustainability, behind Arena, Pioneer, playing in Paper, reprint logistics, and poor design choices.

I've been thinking about this a bit more. Given the timelines we know their sets are printed with, and the inclusion of Force of Negation in Modern Horizons, an effect Wizards had stated they were very much against adding into Modern. I think this is another card that's evidence of the fact that they know there's going to be many more problematic cards over the next year and perhaps longer, and they were hoping for the Force of Will out that Legacy has.

Well what do people want out of modern? I'd like if jund midrange was the best deck again but I don't think that's ever going to happen given all the cards that have entered the format over the past few years. Meta game wise, I think the game will be fine come this spring. My current complaint is that upkeep costs on decks is getting a bit ridiculous though. But that's always been a problem with card games in general.

Ed06288 wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Well what do people want out of modern? I'd like if jund midrange was the best deck again but I don't think that's ever going to happen given all the cards that have entered the format over the past few years. Meta game wise, I think the game will be fine come this spring. My current complaint is that upkeep costs on decks is getting a bit ridiculous though. But that's always been a problem with card games in general.

An actually diverse meta that provides not just deck diversity, but archetype diversity, and a power level which allows for non meta decks to actually sneak into the top tables at the GP level.

Not Oko.
Not ETron.
Not T3feri.
Not Veil of Summer.

Oh, and I want the whole format to revolve around BGx and URx, but I suppose we can't have everything.

Unbelievable they let urza decks again doing this results. Everyone could see long time ago which deck is busted, except selflieing people playing themselves. By the way, Noooo... Urza and oko ban is NOT enough stopping this deck

Aazadan wrote: ↑

4 years ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Do you have historical evidence to back up this claim? I find it hard to believe that you have the confidence to make this claim when 2019 Modern is in the lousiest state it's been since Eldrazi Winter.

There's some problematic cards right now, but out of the issues in Modern that's about the 5th or 6th most pressing issue to the formats long term sustainability, behind Arena, Pioneer, playing in Paper, reprint logistics, and poor design choices.

I've been thinking about this a bit more. Given the timelines we know their sets are printed with, and the inclusion of Force of Negation in Modern Horizons, an effect Wizards had stated they were very much against adding into Modern. I think this is another card that's evidence of the fact that they know there's going to be many more problematic cards over the next year and perhaps longer, and they were hoping for the Force of Will out that Legacy has.

Arena and Pioneer are not pressing issues for Modern. Modern itself is the most pressing issue for Modern.

Pioneer is just another option for standard players if Modern was good.

WoTC will naturally bring Modern to Arena if Modern was good because it would be a gold mine for them.

LGSes would not be giving Modern the shaft to accommodate Pioneer if Modern was good.

Reprint logistics is an obvious problem. While poor design choices is a problem for magic as a whole.

Recognise that the issue with Modern has everything to do with Modern's laundry list of flaws and nothing to do with Pioneer.

The existence of alternative products are not the problem when a mediocre product fails.

True-Name Nemesis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Aazadan wrote: ↑

4 years ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Do you have historical evidence to back up this claim? I find it hard to believe that you have the confidence to make this claim when 2019 Modern is in the lousiest state it's been since Eldrazi Winter.

There's some problematic cards right now, but out of the issues in Modern that's about the 5th or 6th most pressing issue to the formats long term sustainability, behind Arena, Pioneer, playing in Paper, reprint logistics, and poor design choices.

I've been thinking about this a bit more. Given the timelines we know their sets are printed with, and the inclusion of Force of Negation in Modern Horizons, an effect Wizards had stated they were very much against adding into Modern. I think this is another card that's evidence of the fact that they know there's going to be many more problematic cards over the next year and perhaps longer, and they were hoping for the Force of Will out that Legacy has.

Arena and Pioneer are not pressing issues for Modern. Modern itself is the most pressing issue for Modern.

Pioneer is just another option for standard players if Modern was good.

WoTC will naturally bring Modern to Arena if Modern was good because it would be a gold mine for them.

LGSes would not be giving Modern the shaft to accommodate Pioneer if Modern was good.

Reprint logistics is an obvious problem. While poor design choices is a problem for magic as a whole.

Recognise that the issue with Modern has everything to do with Modern's laundry list of flaws and nothing to do with Pioneer.

The existence of alternative products are not the problem when a mediocre product fails.

Or you know the fact that wizards is heavily pushing Pioneer right now and modern is getting nothing. Pioneer is a heavily flawed format with issues but when it's currently getting everything while Modern isn't even getting scraps it doesn't help.

Ed06288 wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Well what do people want out of modern?

people want different things from Modern. Never ending debates, and I find most of the arguments interesting to read.

Don't really have anything to complain about.. so I'm mostly just a spectator on this thread. :$

Amalgam wrote: ↑

4 years ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Aazadan wrote: ↑

4 years ago

There's some problematic cards right now, but out of the issues in Modern that's about the 5th or 6th most pressing issue to the formats long term sustainability, behind Arena, Pioneer, playing in Paper, reprint logistics, and poor design choices.

I've been thinking about this a bit more. Given the timelines we know their sets are printed with, and the inclusion of Force of Negation in Modern Horizons, an effect Wizards had stated they were very much against adding into Modern. I think this is another card that's evidence of the fact that they know there's going to be many more problematic cards over the next year and perhaps longer, and they were hoping for the Force of Will out that Legacy has.

Arena and Pioneer are not pressing issues for Modern. Modern itself is the most pressing issue for Modern.

Pioneer is just another option for standard players if Modern was good.

WoTC will naturally bring Modern to Arena if Modern was good because it would be a gold mine for them.

LGSes would not be giving Modern the shaft to accommodate Pioneer if Modern was good.

Reprint logistics is an obvious problem. While poor design choices is a problem for magic as a whole.

Recognise that the issue with Modern has everything to do with Modern's laundry list of flaws and nothing to do with Pioneer.

The existence of alternative products are not the problem when a mediocre product fails.

Or you know the fact that wizards is heavily pushing Pioneer right now and modern is getting nothing. Pioneer is a heavily flawed format with issues but when it's currently getting everything while Modern isn't even getting scraps it doesn't help.

What are these abundance of stuff that Pioneer has been getting? The only thing Pioneer has gotten over Modern since it's announcement is aggressive bans. They don't even have a committed timeline for Arena other than 'eventually'.

And both Pioneer and Modern have the same number of Magic Fests confirmed so far.

True-Name Nemesis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

The existence of alternative products are not the problem when a mediocre product fails.

True. However, that "mediocrity" is in part due to a lack of clear signaling from the people producing that product.

Personally, I took Modern Horizons to be a signal that Modern was here to stay for a while. Many people see the creation of Pioneer as a sign that WotC is abandoning Modern. I'm not sure if we know. This is the problem. I'm less confident in WotC's support of Modern than I was this time last year. I don't mind spending money on MtG but I don't enjoy swapping formats every 6 months because WotC keeps making new ones. The existence of Pioneer makes the future of Modern uncertain, Wizards should address this. Issuing a statement about their plans seems little to ask considering how much money we throw at them!

Stream scg 5 x urza and 1 mono red. What a joke format. ... Noone could knew this some months ago... Or not? But hey, shadow destroys urza so easy, Lol... Where are this decks now?

SCG Day 2 meta

Flavors of Urza – 17
Flavors of Titan – 13
Bant Snow – 5
Flavors of Shadow – 4
G Tron – 4
Humans – 3
Eldrazi Tron – 2
Infect – 2
Gifts Storm – 2
Mono-Red Prowess – 2
Jund – 1
Gruul Eldrazi – 1
Bring to Light Scapeshift – 1

Top 4 Teams:
1. Bant Snowblade | Sultai Titan | Simic Urza
2. Sultai Urza | Amulet Titan | Amulet Titan
3/4. Gifts Storm | Gifts Storm | Simic Titan
3/4. Amulet Titan | Temur Urza | Temur Urza

https://old.starcitygames.com/events/04 ... umbus.html

Oko and OUAT are down 25%. The writing is on the wall.

gkourou wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Two relevant tweets. I know it does not matter what we are saying here, but

A) Urza or Opal AND oko AND lattice should be banned, and

B) We should push and maybe, maybe Wizards could introduce Modern into Arena (if only, I know chances are slim).

At least, ban those cards, and make Modern better at last. I am sure this is happening at least until Jan, 20.

If they do end up banning from Urza I really do hope it's Urza and/or Astrolobe though. Would hate to see affinity completely crumble and die with an opal ban
Must say we do have our continued meta of every deck being UGX

Pretty funny watching people come around, but not nearly going far enough to make Modern actually good.

I think I'd be fine with an Urza and/or Oko ban at this point. I wasn't too bothered for the longest time but now it's getting absurd

motleyslayer wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I think I'd be fine with an Urza and/or Oko ban at this point. I wasn't too bothered for the longest time but now it's getting absurd

Oko is clearly part of the problem here but can we have a conversation about primeval titan for a bit? I'm not pushing at all for a ban on him but it is note worthy that three cards have been banned from his decks over the years and he is still at the top tables.

#1 Valakut was initially banned and then unbanned quickly after the format got started.
#2 Summer bloom was banned the same time twin was because amulet titan was good at the time.
#3 DTT was once run in a Titanshift deck which commonly ran blue and played a control role at the time. DTT had other bigger problem decks, but this was one of them too.
#4 (banned in standard, but seeing a good amount of play in modern) Field of the dead, once upon a time and oko are all new printings that are being used in titan decks now to great success.

I like primetime personally and I have amulet titan built right now, but is there an arguement that he limits future design space, a similar arguement that they used for birthing pod? We have focused heavily on urza, oko and some others but we should talk about primeval titan some too.

metalmusic_4 wrote: ↑

4 years ago

motleyslayer wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I think I'd be fine with an Urza and/or Oko ban at this point. I wasn't too bothered for the longest time but now it's getting absurd

Oko is clearly part of the problem here but can we have a conversation about primeval titan for a bit? I'm not pushing at all for a ban on him but it is note worthy that three cards have been banned from his decks over the years and he is still at the top tables.

#1 Valakut was initially banned and then unbanned quickly after the format got started.
#2 Summer bloom was banned the same time twin was because amulet titan was good at the time.
#3 DTT was once run in a Titanshift deck which commonly ran blue and played a control role at the time. DTT had other bigger problem decks, but this was one of them too.
#4 (banned in standard, but seeing a good amount of play in modern) Field of the dead, once upon a time and oko are all new printings that are being used in titan decks now to great success.

I like primetime personally and I have amulet titan built right now, but is there an arguement that he limits future design space, a similar arguement that they used for birthing pod? We have focused heavily on urza, oko and some others but we should talk about primeval titan some too.

I actually had a conversation with a few friends back maybe after Eldrazi winter about how broken primeval titan is. Also for the reason that it limits future design space in regards to design of lands .

I don't know if I'd like to see it banned but it's low key just really good