MTGNexus

idSurge wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Yeah, I can see it in a not long time frame becoming oppressive in Legacy actually.

Candidate for banned in Legacy but not in Modern?

I know there are others, but I remember some stigma about it being a good frame of reference.

I don't know what tools Legacy has to deal with PW. Then again it's a modern discussion.
Wrenn and Six definitely very strong. Doesn't help it's in an already expensive booster pack.

Hoping for some new PW answers soon, would probably help Legacy as well.

Planeswalkers are super awkward to interact with because a lot of old cards that could or should interact with them can't, simply because the card didn't exist when it was printed. Templating and modal spells since then have helped, but like, if PWs are going to be the future of Magic, there needs to be a LOT more ways to remove.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

idSurge wrote: ↑

4 years ago

At $90, Wrenn is out of stock on SCG, so...yeah that card is going to be nuts. Just read an article that its basically forcing a huge shift in Legacy meta, if it REALLY takes off in Modern its going to be painful for folks.

I could imagine Wasteland loops are a thing with it...

It's long term use in Modern seems really likely. A ridiculously cheap PW that allows you to cut lands and has nothing but upside seems great for any deck that can cast it.

WoTc made the first 2 cmc walker Tibalt laughably weak.. this time they made up for that by making their second 2 cmc walker incredibly strong.

Timing and price hurt vis-a-vis MH1. It needed to be at a different time, or at a different price. Like the Star Wars Solo movie, it paid the price for predecessors' errors; a succession of underwhelming masters sets, the mythic debacle, an already shook up format from WAR, people were ready to hate out of the blocks. The cards were fine, there were role players for obscure decks, top level cards for a variety of decks, and cards to shift the balance.
The broken deck to emerge was to an extent broken by already broken strategy.

Necrofish wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Then again it's a modern discussion.

I meant that a ban in Legacy might appear to set a precedence for it getting a ban in Modern. I remember some talk about how these have seemed to cascade down the chain after WotC makes a decision about the type of interaction it's promoting. I think it's certainly in the realm of Modern discussion because of how we've seen a few things in the past get banned. Probe and DRS for examples... though now that I think about it, I don't remember which direction that ban chain started. Was it Modern then Legacy or Legacy then Modern?

Arkmer wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Candidate for banned in Legacy but not in Modern?

We dont have Wasteland. I believe its that card that drives most of the utility out of Wrenn in Legacy, on top of what it does to Fetch's.

Arkmer wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Necrofish wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Then again it's a modern discussion.

I meant that a ban in Legacy might appear to set a precedence for it getting a ban in Modern. I remember some talk about how these have seemed to cascade down the chain after WotC makes a decision about the type of interaction it's promoting. I think it's certainly in the realm of Modern discussion because of how we've seen a few things in the past get banned. Probe and DRS for examples... though now that I think about it, I don't remember which direction that ban chain started. Was it Modern then Legacy or Legacy then Modern?

Probe was actually Modern, then Vintage and then finally Legacy, so there was a period of time where Legacy was an awkward middle child that still had Probe legal. When it was limited in Vintage, they made a note in the announcement that they wouldn't ban Probe in Legacy just because it was banned in both Modern and Vintage:

Of note is that Legacy is currently the only tournament format where we have not taken action against Gitaxian Probe. Currently, the data does not support doing so in that format, and we examine each format individually.

In other words, a card banned in Legacy doesn't directly lead to a ban in Modern if their data doesn't support taking action

Yeah it's interesting to see what cards like Dreadhorde Arcanist and Wrenn and Six have done to Legacy.

I saw the results of a local 34 person Legacy tournament where 4-5 of the top 8 decks ran Dreadhorde Arcanist. That scared me.

I have a hard time calling modern horizons a success given that it broke modern and we haven't had any major post bridge ban tournaments as far as I am aware.

Not sure how big of a tournament you want, but there was the SCG Worcester Classic as well as 3 Modern IQs. Not only that, most of the decks that got into the top 8 in each tournament were using cards from Modern Horizons. While some may have different definitions of success, it can't be denied that Modern Horizons has noticeably impacted the format, which I'm pretty sure is a win in Wizards' books

its impact on the format is undeniable as it broke the format but it's not a success or it's too early to tell. classics and IQ's are small tournaments so I wouldnt read much into them. I'm waiting for opens and grand prix

The Fluff wrote: ↑

4 years ago

WoTc made the first 2 cmc walker Tibalt laughably weak.. this time they made up for that by making their second 2 cmc walker incredibly strong.

Justice for Tibalt!
Poor guy deserves better.

FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Yeah it's interesting to see what cards like Dreadhorde Arcanist and Wrenn and Six have done to Legacy.

I saw the results of a local 34 person Legacy tournament where 4-5 of the top 8 decks ran Dreadhorde Arcanist. That scared me.

Yeah right, but luckily he is not that overpowered in Modern IMO. The format knows how to deal with him.

If Wrenn and Six becomes oppressive, we all know the hero we need...

DRS.

Diversity looks pretty good right now. Jund has also come back in force between W6 and Seasoned Pyromancer.

I like modern a lot right now, and I'm still very curious to see where we all will end up in a couple of months.

spawnofhastur wrote: ↑

4 years ago

If Wrenn and Six becomes oppressive, we all know the hero we need...

DRS.

Oh lord, that would create a lot more misery i guess

Am I the only one who thinks 2 hogaak decks making top 8 is a warning sign the ban wasn't enough?

robertleva wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Am I the only one who thinks 2 hogaak decks making top 8 is a warning sign the ban wasn't enough?

I don't think so. Maybe they dodged matchups that were heavily suited to fight GY strats, or a majority of players expected a decline in GY decks and so on. I also think that 2 out of 8 is totally fine. But sure, a 8/8 on turn 2 is still a strong play. Remember to pack your grave hate fellas!

robertleva wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Am I the only one who thinks 2 hogaak decks making top 8 is a warning sign the ban wasn't enough?

Eldrazi still put up results after Eye of Ugin got ban. Amulet Titan still put up results after Summer Bloom ban.

We might just be seeing the same thing happening with Hogaak.

By the way, it's Mardu Shadow, not Esper.

spawnofhastur wrote: ↑

4 years ago

If Wrenn and Six becomes oppressive, we all know the hero we need...

DRS.

That would be Chemotherapy - Killing Cancer with Poison.

Regarding Hogaak, it still deserves to be a deck. It's still kind of new so I figure people will find the right balanc ein GY hate and how to play against Hogaak decks. It is also not nearly as dominant as it was before, so for now it seems the ban was enough.

Of course, maybe that might change in a few weeks or months when someone discovers a new strat or card to make Hogaak busted again or completely take it out of modern. Unlikely, but possible. Right now it seems it's going to follow a similar trend as Eldrazi and Amulet Titan, just as Fluff mentioned.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Planeswalkers are super awkward to interact with because a lot of old cards that could or should interact with them can't, simply because the card didn't exist when it was printed. Templating and modal spells since then have helped, but like, if PWs are going to be the future of Magic, there needs to be a LOT more ways to remove.

I agree. I know Maro has said that he/they don't plan on doing anything about being able to interact with PW emblems, but I hope one day that changes as well. Maybe even an enchantment or something similar to Witchbane Orb that removes all current emblems affecting you.

I would doubt that we ever get anything that removes emblems. Like most Planeswalker ultimates, I'm pretty sure most emblems were designed to be game-ending even if you don't immediately win on the spot after getting an emblem. The only ones that aren't are ones like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar or Gideon of the Trials, that you can immediately fire off without gaining loyalty. Besides, printing better Walker killers so you can go after the Walkers before they can ever make their emblems seems like a better use of design space. On the plus side, given how much Spark impacted Standard, there's a chance they make a decent Walker killer in the next Standard set that can actually kill T3feri and Narset

I want more suppression field effects to deal with walkers before the emblem stage, but I guess Wotc want people to be able to play without the frustration of having cards in play or hand that they can't use. Sadly wotc are only just beginning to rediscover the value of answers, and of course answers lead to frustration. A solemnity effect that actually affects walkers, would be ideal. If there was more Walker hate, and I mean HATE, not one for one removal, mtg in general would benefit. Emblems can stay, but please give us better answers.