MTGNexus

Ain't nobody playing 6 drops that don't affect the board state these days

I still think there are some interesting 6-drops creatures to play that don't have ETB effects, like Etali, Primal Storm or Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire. The trigger on Treasury Thrull is just too low impact but that doesn't mean every 6-drop in your deck has to have immediate board impact.

Wednesday, May 13th, 2020; Harrow



Do people still play this? Ugh. Maybe I've been blown out too many times by a Spell Pierce to trust it.

Looks like a pretty solid benchmark to determine how cutthroat your meta is:

It's a very powerful ramp and color fixing spell all in one package with many strengths going for it on a great budget card.

But, if yours is the kind of playgroup where countering this turn three is a good play, you're better off running fetches and duals for all your color fixing needs.

Do people really counter this? Hardly seems worth it. I mean, 1v1 it certainly is, but multiplayer that seems kinda like the "cutthroat" move of stripping a karoo - which isn't even a good play. At least a counterspell doesn't set you back a land drop. But it still feels more dickish than actually correct. I guess it depends on board state though.

Historically I've mostly ignored it in favor of actual 2-cmc ramp, but I'm tinkering with a Kalamax, the Stormsire deck, and it's dynamite there. As is Crop Rotation, Thrill of Possibility - basically anything cheap with an additional cost is pretty bonkers. It's also one of the only instant ramp spells.

DirkGently wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Do people really counter this? Hardly seems worth it. I mean, 1v1 it certainly is, but multiplayer that seems kinda like the "cutthroat" move of stripping a karoo - which isn't even a good play.

Counterspells are traditionally CA neutral, but the ability to counter (answer) two cards with one is quite appealing. Speaking of ZEN limited, I got my harrows blown out by an errant dispel on more than a few occasions. You say it's not an optimal play, but the loss of tempo is severe. You just got time walked and went down a land, and all it cost me was a single U.

It really is a killer play.

Sure it's a killer play, but in multiplayer EDH the loss of one opponent's tempo for one blue mana isn't where I want to be.

I like Harrow, I play it in a few decks, obviously great in The Gitrog Monster but solid elsewhere.

I guess it's better in threshold decks too. That's certainly a thing. Looks like one of the better ramp cards if I ever launch that pre-modern deck, which is noticeably both better and worse than white border only.

3drinks wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Counterspells are traditionally CA neutral, but the ability to counter (answer) two cards with one is quite appealing. Speaking of ZEN limited, I got my harrows blown out by an errant dispel on more than a few occasions. You say it's not an optimal play, but the loss of tempo is severe. You just got time walked and went down a land, and all it cost me was a single U.

It really is a killer play.

I did specify that I meant in multiplayer. It's definitely strong in 1v1, unless it's like turn 10 and lands aren't very relevant.

In multiplayer, if someone was "the threat" and I could hobble them by countering their harrow I might do it. If the game was pretty even, though, naw.

Harrow is certainly solid in Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, where I've been quite happy with it. Especially all the extra stuff I'm playing that cares about lands.

It's nice that, like Nature's Lore, it only effectively costs 1 mana on the turn you cast it. Having it countered does hurt, but as has already been mentioned that's usually not a very good play in multiplayer anyway.

But, I feel like there's very little reason for any deck that isn't benefiting from sacrificing that land to be running Harrow over Farseek, Nature's Lore, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wood Elves, etc etc.

Ya, unless you are copying this spell, have a ton of landfall or are benefiting from sacrificing the land, you probably just run Kodama's reach, cultivate, Wood elves, Springbloom Druid (which doesn't hurt you if it gets countered)... Yavimaya Dryad...... basically, there is a long list of good cards you can run that outperform Harrow in most situations.

ZenN wrote: ↑

4 years ago

--snip--
But, I feel like there's very little reason for any deck that isn't benefiting from sacrificing that land to be running Harrow over Farseek, Nature's Lore, Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wood Elves, etc etc.

Dunharrow wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Ya, unless you are copying this spell, have a ton of landfall or are benefiting from sacrificing the land, you probably just run Kodama's reach, cultivate, Wood elves, Springbloom Druid (which doesn't hurt you if it gets countered)... Yavimaya Dryad...... basically, there is a long list of good cards you can run that outperform Harrow in most situations.

I agree there are good alternatives; however, Harrow has one thing over all the cards listed - it's instant. And in a deck, especially where it is multicolor that can use a splash of green and can use the fixing, you can hold up mana for counter magic or other things, and then have the option to cast Harrow at EoT.

Harrow also has the lands enter untapped so you can sequence your plays better. Say you have 5 mana and you want to play Wrath of God. With Harrow you can ramp and still cast wrath while with something like Farseek or Springbloom Druid you can't.

I've occasionally ran it, although with the number of decks I run it's just one more 'pretty efficient ramp/fix' spell, should my deck be on the lookout for one. If I find a Cultivate first, that gets the spot, that sort of thing. Most decks have fairly limited use of the 'side effects' of being instant, or saccing a land.

Tatyova and Kynaios&Tiro are the two decks I specifically dug out for Harrow, both decks very land-centric.

Not much more to be said, it's OK if you're either super greedy for tempo for sequencing or care about lands in the graveyard/sacrificing.

Good discussion. FWIW it keeps rotating in and out of my Gitrog Monster deck, and is currently "in" - given that I run only like 15 non-land, non-creature cards, that's pretty high praise but it has found itself cut at various times for other cards.

I think in a vacuum I'd run this after Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Yavimaya Dryad, and Wood Elves - the first two put you "up a card" and the second two are bodies (with all the implied synergy and value therin) that can fetch duals. All of these are generally below two-CMC ramp (Signets, Nature's Lore, Farseek, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Rampant Growth) but most decks are looking for 10-15 ramp cards so I often go deeper than that .

It's generally on par with Nissa's Pilgrimage and its mighty colleague Springbloom Druid as a deck-dependent call, and ahead of Farhaven Elf, Grow from the Ashes, Primal Growth, Search for Tomorrow, or Omen of the Hunt as "deck dependent but applicable to fewer decks".

I will say being instant rarely feels relevant, as it somewhat plays against the value of it "only costing one" and "ramping one" - unless you are flashing in everything in a Yeva deck you're probably slamming this main phase anyways. But it is still reasonable, and outstanding in a sacrifice-heavy deck.

I got the Player Rewards version in the mail back in the day. Definitely was the best card I ever received from that program.

DirkGently wrote: ↑

4 years ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Counterspells are traditionally CA neutral, but the ability to counter (answer) two cards with one is quite appealing. Speaking of ZEN limited, I got my harrows blown out by an errant dispel on more than a few occasions. You say it's not an optimal play, but the loss of tempo is severe. You just got time walked and went down a land, and all it cost me was a single U.

It really is a killer play.

I did specify that I meant in multiplayer. It's definitely strong in 1v1, unless it's like turn 10 and lands aren't very relevant.

In multiplayer, if someone was "the threat" and I could hobble them by countering their harrow I might do it. If the game was pretty even, though, naw.

No, no, even in multiplayer. If it's not mid-late game, or they're mana stunted, I will absolutely counter this every time. Ramp and mana fixing is a privilege, not a right. And I'll certainly deny you that right when it suits me.

3drinks wrote: ↑

4 years ago

DirkGently wrote: ↑

4 years ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Counterspells are traditionally CA neutral, but the ability to counter (answer) two cards with one is quite appealing. Speaking of ZEN limited, I got my harrows blown out by an errant dispel on more than a few occasions. You say it's not an optimal play, but the loss of tempo is severe. You just got time walked and went down a land, and all it cost me was a single U.

It really is a killer play.

I did specify that I meant in multiplayer. It's definitely strong in 1v1, unless it's like turn 10 and lands aren't very relevant.

In multiplayer, if someone was "the threat" and I could hobble them by countering their harrow I might do it. If the game was pretty even, though, naw.

No, no, even in multiplayer. If it's not mid-late game, or they're mana stunted, I will absolutely counter this every time. Ramp and mana fixing is a privilege, not a right. And I'll certainly deny you that right when it suits me.

Again that can be a test of playgroups. Clearly from a tactical perspective it's an awesome play. A player that kept 3 lands and a harrow may suddenly find that they basically lose the game for U or 1U - which is the most tempo-power play one can hope to make in Magic. lol get wrecked. Even if it doesn't completely kneecap them for the rest of the match, it's still great - they're effectively down two cards; it's great in the same way countering Altar's Reap or whatever is amazing.

From a social perspective, clearly your playgroup tolerates it (or you largely play online where the tears of your enemies are sweet salt for your private meal). In my playgroup and in most every game store I've ever played in, countering Harrow (unless we're all clearly agreed beforehand to be CEDHing it out or the player in question has won literally all night) is a total sociopath move that is likely to get me uninvited to future games. We can have a larger debate on if that's "right" to assume that no one will counter your Harrow, Mine your bounce-land, or Nature's Claim your Sol Ring and to be hurt when someone breaks the unspoken pact, but that's just the nature of the format in most places.

I like the counter-the-Harrow play, but I'd probably prefer to keep something like a Negate or counterspell for some game-ending cards rather than the early value play.

Hawk wrote: ↑

4 years ago

From a social perspective, clearly your playgroup tolerates it (or you largely play online where the tears of your enemies are sweet salt for your private meal). In my playgroup and in most every game store I've ever played in, countering Harrow (unless we're all clearly agreed beforehand to be CEDHing it out or the player in question has won literally all night) is a total sociopath move that is likely to get me uninvited to future games. We can have a larger debate on if that's "right" to assume that no one will counter your Harrow, Mine your bounce-land, or Nature's Claim your Sol Ring and to be hurt when someone breaks the unspoken pact, but that's just the nature of the format in most places.

I do play on modo where people block me because I play wasteland or imp. recruit for magus of the moon. cDH or not, this asinine idea where people throw "social contracts" in your face because they dont like you taking away their fast mana or interacting with them, this idea of "you dont let me do what I want unimpeded" is the most ridiculous spirit of the format cop out I ever heard. If you socially ostracize a player because they killed your mana rock, I don't care, you're a trash human being on a hundred levels. You don't turn someone into a social pariah because of how they interact in a game.

I'm in the 'counter Harrow' faction. Early ramp tends to spiral out of control quickly, and if you're going to play a card with a downside, I believe it's perfectly reasonable to punish you for it. That's partially due to my current meta though - in a more casual meta (where I'm not expecting the tempo loss to be as relevant), I'd be less likely to counter.

....I would Narset's Reversal it in pretty much any meta though.

Anyway, as for the card itself... effectively costs one mana the turn it is played, and ramps by one also, while also filling the graveyard and triggering landfall. If you have land recursion or sacrifice synergies, I'd definitely consider it. I'm running it in Tasigur - instant speed makes it really easy to hold up mana for both it and Tasigur activations, plus I care about having lands in my graveyard. Also, because sacrificing a land is a cost, it's pretty good in Riku of Two Reflections and Kalamax, the Stormsire - the copy just ramps, and doesn't need an additional sacrifice. Getting two lands also makes it pretty good fixing.

It has to be by far the exception where it's right to counter a harrow; early game when you can stall someone out and they're your only real competition. It does happen I guess. In my experience on Gitrog with people trying to "get" me with countering harrow/crop rotation it usually ended badly for them

I wouldn't be salty though if someone saw the opportunity and won, I just think it's rare that you're actually increasing your chance of winning if you're at a table where everyone is a threat.

pokken wrote: ↑

4 years ago

It has to be by far the exception where it's right to counter a harrow; early game when you can stall someone out and they're your only real competition. It does happen I guess. In my experience on Gitrog with people trying to "get" me with countering harrow/crop rotation it usually ended badly for them

I wouldn't be salty though if someone saw the opportunity and won, I just think it's rare that you're actually increasing your chance of winning if you're at a table where everyone is a threat.

Pretty much this. In a multiplayer game, gimping one person early on is rarely a game winning play. It's the sort of thing that used to be fairly common in my group, until people realized how dumb it makes them feel when they do something like counter Player B's Harrow only to watch Player C win the game a few turns later and they're not holding an answer anymore, and Player B has an answer but can't use it because they got gimped.

Obviously it's not completely black and white, but there really aren't many situations where countering a Harrow is going to be "right".

springbloom druid is beter