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Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:57 am
by ChocoDude
@toctheyounger For myself I'm mulling over some changes too - I'm really on the fence with
Crucible of Worlds, it's always one I turf. Does anyone else get good mileage from it?
Yeah, I've mostly pitched it in the bin when I've come across it and have really considered swapping it out. However, I haven't actually played Varina in a couple of months, so I just haven't gotten around to it.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:51 am
by Rframpt
ChocoDude wrote: ↑1 year ago
@toctheyounger
For myself I'm mulling over some changes too - I'm really on the fence with
Crucible of Worlds, it's always one I turf. Does anyone else get good mileage from it?
For me Crucible has been a fine card to have as utility. Works well with Varina as you can easily pitch lands you draw with her and play them in the second main phase.
Tormod, the Desecrator gets some usage from it as well creating more zombie tokens. And if you don't need it immediately pitch it and bring it back with
Sevinne's Reclamation.
Being a former lands player sure it isn't nearly as insane value engine as those decks, but it does honest work. Hardly ever gets removed when it is on the field unless it is part of a boardwipe.
What have been your considerations to replace Crucible with if you do take it out?
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:56 am
by Falkenbach
If you dont run signets or talisman and are on the cabbal coffers/nykthos or crypt of agadeem path i think its a much better stay. Being able to have consistant land drops is really important..
The only bad thing about it is: when to play it as it fights with the 3 drop zombies to be on curve..
I always run against dropping zombies on curve and varina on turn 4. Versus more lands sevinnes with fetch land or the cosmic intervention trick..
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:15 pm
by pzbw7z
Crucible of Worlds probably works well with
Field of the Dead and fetch lands.
Tormod, the Desecrator would make this even better.
I play Field and Tormod and most of the fetch lands that are appropriate, but I no longer have a Crucible to test with.
Tokens aren't a big part of my game plan anyway, but they trigger my guys on EtB and dying, so I have a small investment in them.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:19 pm
by toctheyounger
Rframpt wrote: ↑1 year ago
ChocoDude wrote: ↑1 year ago
@toctheyounger
For myself I'm mulling over some changes too - I'm really on the fence with
Crucible of Worlds, it's always one I turf. Does anyone else get good mileage from it?
For me Crucible has been a fine card to have as utility. Works well with Varina as you can easily pitch lands you draw with her and play them in the second main phase.
Tormod, the Desecrator gets some usage from it as well creating more zombie tokens. And if you don't need it immediately pitch it and bring it back with
Sevinne's Reclamation.
Being a former lands player sure it isn't nearly as insane value engine as those decks, but it does honest work. Hardly ever gets removed when it is on the field unless it is part of a boardwipe.
What have been your considerations to replace Crucible with if you do take it out?
I'll likely try
Dark Ritual,
Entomb or
Enlightened Tutor in its place. I've got 2 of the three and they all seem very good.
For myself, I've found once I'm at 5 or 6 lands I don't really need a ton more, so they quite often just end up Varina fodder.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:00 am
by Rframpt
I can definitely recommend
Entomb .
Enlightened Tutor I can see an argument for but given the many black-aligned tutors I think there are better choices other than
Enlightened Tutor unless the card choice 9/10 times is
Skullclamp
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:06 am
by Rframpt
Also Toctheyounger. You mentioned
Poxwalkers being good for your deck. Anything interesting in how you have made sure to make it work for Varina?
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:33 pm
by pzbw7z
Phyrexian Altar is probably target number one. The trouble with the black tutors is cost; the good ones are pricey. He's already running
Vampiric Tutor and
Diabolic Intent.
Grim Tutor is probably the next best considering price as well as utility.
Beseech the Queen works fine but it doesn't get along with
Ad Nauseam nor does
Dark Petition. With the reprint, Enlightened Tutor looks to be substantially cheaper than
Demonic Tutor and even slightly less than Grim Tutor.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:35 pm
by pzbw7z
I have to admit, I sometimes tutor for
Buried Alive. Anything to get the Haakon engine going.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:28 pm
by pokken
Etutor for altar, mystical tutor for intuition are generally comparable to vamp tutor enough I would run both (significantly before grim tutor or imperial seal)
(I just don't need that many tutors, I prefer to get there by drawing cards)
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:47 pm
by toctheyounger
Rframpt wrote: ↑1 year ago
Also Toctheyounger. You mentioned
Poxwalkers being good for your deck. Anything interesting in how you have made sure to make it work for Varina?
Nothing in particular other than that it works very well with
Gravecrawler and Haakon. And Lili. I've just found it well worth burying alive.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:38 pm
by Falkenbach
Fatestitcher
Wish this was a 3 drop .. as it is i dont think he stands a chance to enter the primer. Tho would work fine with nykthos cabbal coffers and the like
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:41 am
by toctheyounger
Falkenbach wrote: ↑1 year ago
Fatestitcher
Wish this was a 3 drop .. as it is i dont think he stands a chance to enter the primer. Tho would work fine with nykthos cabbal coffers and the like
Honestly it's pretty strong in the right place. There's places it does amazing things. Specifically in blink strategies and with stuff like
birthing pod and
Prime Speaker Vannifar.
All that aside the unearth is pretty amazing.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:24 am
by Rframpt
I do want to know which Zombie cards have been all-stars in the rest of you folks' decks?
Gray Merchant of Asphodel is certainly the top one as it is usually a when condition. But if you have any other amazing tech I would love to know.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:35 pm
by RedCheese
Rframpt wrote: ↑1 year ago
I do want to know which Zombie cards have been all-stars in the rest of you folks' decks?
Gray Merchant of Asphodel is certainly the top one as it is usually a when condition. But if you have any other amazing tech I would love to know.
Noxious Ghoul remain my favourite. Theres one memorable match when this guy kept a fully powered sliver deck at bay
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:18 pm
by pokken
Haakon figures in close to half my wins these days. Enough I'm considering finally adding buried alive. No one expects you to win with ashnods altar in zombies without mikaeus.
Lazotep Reaver is one of the most underplayed I think. Two bodies for two mana and one card is absurd. It's like zombie raise the alarm.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:04 pm
by pzbw7z
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is a personal favorite along with his partners in crime,
Corpse Knight and
Foulmire Knight. These are my go-to
Buried Alive trio. I badly need a
Universal Automaton to round out Haakon's potential.
Zombie Master puts in work for me sometimes.
Living Death and
Zombie Apocalypse are the heavy hitters; mass reanimation is often a factor in my games along with the EtB and dies triggers.
And, yes,
Gray Merchant of Asphodel pulls his weight as well.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:05 pm
by pzbw7z
Somebody ought to shout out
Phyrexian Altar; it's the card that scares people - with good reason.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:36 pm
by pokken
pzbw7z wrote: ↑1 year ago
Somebody ought to shout out
Phyrexian Altar; it's the card that scares people - with good reason.
It sounded like they were asking specifically about zombies
I'll add
Putrid Imp as a little used allstar. I've done so many sick things with the imp. It gets so ridiculous sometimes. The ability to free discard after your Varina trigger can really be huge for a mass reanimation.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:36 pm
by Rframpt
pzbw7z wrote: ↑1 year ago
Somebody ought to shout out
Phyrexian Altar; it's the card that scares people - with good reason.
Phyrexian Altar is definitely an all-star for sure. I was mostly asking for which Zombie cards folks are using in case there had been any I somehow had missed or if others had some hidden all-stars they had not mentioned before.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:39 pm
by toctheyounger
Rframpt wrote: ↑1 year ago
I do want to know which Zombie cards have been all-stars in the rest of you folks' decks?
Gray Merchant of Asphodel is certainly the top one as it is usually a when condition. But if you have any other amazing tech I would love to know.
Cryptbrealer,
Wayward Servant,
Headless Rider and
Champion of the Perished are my current favorites.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:59 pm
by pzbw7z
Tormod, the Desecrator is a good man - er, Zombie. He's made tokens a much stronger sub-theme for me. Tokens don't flip all of the triggers, but they flip many of them.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:00 pm
by Falkenbach
Cryptbreaker has so much utility its crazy,
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:01 pm
by pokken
Single handedly a 1 2 and 3 drop into Varina. So good.
One time I did crypt crypt crypt+1 drop into Varina and crashed for 4.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:12 am
by pzbw7z
Varina's looting ability facilitates many strategies but it also - in my mind at least - elevates some cards' playability.
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the prime example.
Wonder is another, if you like that sort of thing. I also wouldn't likely play
Sidisi, Undead Vizier if I didn't plan to bin her every time she shows up.
Does anyone else think like this?