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Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:08 am
by pokken
Got a game in today with Varina and man just...everyone play
Skullclamp I ran away with the game with
Gravecrawler and
Skullclamp and varina digging. An early
Living Death off of
Carrion Feeder to enable my play sealed the game pretty early but all the clamp cards was too much to stop.
Also
Springleaf Drum was exceptional--had a turn 3 varina (if I had remembered:P) and the ramp was really helpful. I'll definitely be keeping it.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:17 pm
by pzbw7z
pokken wrote: ↑1 year ago
Got a game in today with Varina and man just...everyone play
Skullclamp I ran away with the game with
Gravecrawler and
Skullclamp and varina digging. An early
Living Death off of
Carrion Feeder to enable my play sealed the game pretty early but all the clamp cards was too much to stop.
Also
Springleaf Drum was exceptional--had a turn 3 varina (if I had remembered:P) and the ramp was really helpful. I'll definitely be keeping it.
I can testify to the power of the 'Clamp - 'Crawler duo and to the effectiveness of Living Death. 'Clamp has additional, equally effective targets in a
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge list. With Haakon,
Foulmire Knight,
Changeling Outcast and
Universal Automaton work as well as 'Crawler. I wish I could find an Automaton to slot in.
All indicators point to the Drum being good here but I haven't had it in my list long. Many of you run even more creatures than I do - 32 - so it should nearly always put in some work.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:41 pm
by toctheyounger
pzbw7z wrote: ↑1 year ago
pokken wrote: ↑1 year ago
Got a game in today with Varina and man just...everyone play
Skullclamp I ran away with the game with
Gravecrawler and
Skullclamp and varina digging. An early
Living Death off of
Carrion Feeder to enable my play sealed the game pretty early but all the clamp cards was too much to stop.
Also
Springleaf Drum was exceptional--had a turn 3 varina (if I had remembered:P) and the ramp was really helpful. I'll definitely be keeping it.
I can testify to the power of the 'Clamp - 'Crawler duo and to the effectiveness of Living Death. 'Clamp has additional, equally effective targets in a
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge list. With Haakon,
Foulmire Knight,
Changeling Outcast and
Universal Automaton work as well as 'Crawler. I wish I could find an Automaton to slot in.
All indicators point to the Drum being good here but I haven't had it in my list long. Many of you run even more creatures than I do - 32 - so it should nearly always put in some work.
I literally had to order an Automaton from overseas to get a copy.
And yeah, thirding the Clamp. It's so, so good here. Crawler and Clamp just go right off, but even just as a value add it's crazy good.
I've had a little bit of experience goldfishing with
Springleaf Drum and all signs point to it being a pretty solid addition. It's flexible and quite often means mana acceleration without necessarily taking a turn off in the early game, which is exactly what we want.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:12 am
by toctheyounger
Also, got a bit of an update:
We've gone over most of it in discussion here and there. Intervention is pretty great value, and Intent is as cheap as it's ever been so there was no reason not to give it a try. Pact is something I was reluctant to try due to the upkeep cost, but I'm sure most of the time it's going to work out. Otawara and Underground are here for flexibility; Otawara is cheap, non-counterable removal or a way to stop myself decking with
Kindred Discovery, and Underground is really just more flexible than filter lands. The life loss is less of an issue here than anywhere else. Razorlash I'd talked about already, and I know I said Poxwalkers wouldn't get in here for lore reasons. Well, it was a moot point as I couldn't get a copy, but....then I found one. The lore thing I'm not totally psyched on, but the card is good.
For cuts, I really like
Apprentice Necromancer. It's neat but it's a trick up my sleeve that never comes out of the sleeve.
Diregraf Colossus honestly just kinda sucks here. It's fine, but nothing amazing, so I'm not sad to lose it. Infestation is great, but I don't know that it's really required so it's out. Void Rend we've talked about, it's too color splashy and too expensive. And Bidding, I think, is the weakest reanimation spell still in the deck. It's good, but does have the potential to backfire, so it was an easy swap for Intervention.
Feel free to tell me if I've made mistakes
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:25 am
by pokken
All very good cuts. Think I cut colossus recently too. Such a donothing
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:50 am
by toctheyounger
pokken wrote: ↑1 year ago
All very good cuts. Think I cut colossus recently too. Such a donothing
It really is. Given that it's a cast trigger it really is just bad.
Headless Rider is my token spammer, card does great stuff.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:35 pm
by pzbw7z
toctheyounger wrote: ↑1 year ago
pokken wrote: ↑1 year ago
All very good cuts. Think I cut colossus recently too. Such a donothing
It really is. Given that it's a cast trigger it really is just bad.
Headless Rider is my token spammer, card does great stuff.
That's how I feel about
Diregraf Colossus as well. It seems as if it ought to work, but it just never does for me.
Headless Rider doesn't always perform well, but sometimes it makes a body or even a few.
With the reprint,
Diabolic Intent seems like a no-brainer for us doesn't it? I've had a copy in my Prosper for a while, and I know I should use it in Varina, I'm a bit more casual with Varina - like a thousand dollars more casual, if you know what I mean - but I still think I would splurge for a second copy if I could swing it.
Has anyone else seen
Saffron Olive's Modern Combo Zombie video? It's unusual for me to take the time to watch MtG videos, but this one was interesting. While I don't think the combo engine (
Thran Vigil and
Putrid Goblin) is good enough for Commander, the video was fun as well as educational!
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:20 pm
by pzbw7z
The filter lands are pretty good when there are spells with double colors; I have two such and I keep
Fetid Heath around mainly for those spells. I have no double
U and I haven't got a copy of
Sunken Ruins anyway - plus it's much more proud of itself than Heath anyway - so I've never bothered with it.
Another thought; if you are on
Field of the Dead or especially
Tainted Pact, you should have some Snow-covered basics in your mix. There really doesn't seem to be a downside.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:57 pm
by yeti1069
One of the things I like about the Colossus is that it sees all the zombies (including itself) when mass-rezzing, so it comes in HUGE every time. Ditto for any single target reanimation. It being a 10/10 or more has come in relevant on more than one occasion for me. That said, I can see how it might be a little underwhelming.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:14 pm
by pzbw7z
yeti1069 wrote: ↑1 year ago
One of the things I like about the Colossus is that it sees all the zombies (including itself) when mass-rezzing, so it comes in HUGE every time. Ditto for any single target reanimation. It being a 10/10 or more has come in relevant on more than one occasion for me. That said, I can see how it might be a little underwhelming.
That is interesting; I did not know that. It certainly does count for something.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:24 pm
by toctheyounger
yeti1069 wrote: ↑1 year ago
One of the things I like about the Colossus is that it sees all the zombies (including itself) when mass-rezzing, so it comes in HUGE every time. Ditto for any single target reanimation. It being a 10/10 or more has come in relevant on more than one occasion for me. That said, I can see how it might be a little underwhelming.
Oh yeah it's very rarely less than double digits for me. I think more because the cast trigger is so tough to get anything from it's a bit disappointing for me personally. But as far as beaters go it's pretty nasty.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:13 pm
by pzbw7z
I actually do like some Zombies that are better just discarded than cast - it just makes the decision making easier. It's perhaps not the soundest strategy, and it takes awhile every game to get in the grove and just bin all of the Zombies, but it seems to work!
Truthfully, since Haakon and company came on board, I win probably as often through combo as through mass reanimation. Still, I'm invested in both strategies.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:14 am
by RedCheese
Varinna ended up been the Token spammer in my matches XD. Colossus never did much and the 3 mana cost is already tight as it is
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:57 pm
by pokken
pzbw7z wrote: ↑1 year ago
Truthfully, since Haakon and company came on board, I win probably as often through combo as through mass reanimation. Still, I'm invested in both strategies.
Yeah tbh I have not cast a mass reanimation other than
Living Death in quite some time. The mana reward is less than it was because my zombies are so cheap, it's often better to just make zombies with Varina
Dread Return /
Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt /
Sevinne's Reclamation get it done for me most of the time, or
Liliana, Untouched by Death.
I'm starting to feel like for me anyway that
Zombie Apocalypse might be cuttable for
Unearth or
Reanimate.
Another thing I've considered is trying the swap for
Wake the Dead /
Rally the Ancestors to be able to beat grave hate more like
Twilight's Call used to. Sadly, a lot of our infinites are sorcery speed, so would probably need to think hard about that?
Q: Are there any other things like
Liliana, Untouched by Death or
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge that let you unlimited cast creatures from the yard in a turn? I can't think of any.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:33 pm
by pzbw7z
I'd cut
Patriarch's Bidding long before
Zombie Apocalypse! Both on performance as well as theme grounds.
Actually, I did cut it already and I'm still on Apocalypse.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:39 pm
by pokken
I use this a lot but all things considered 5 is a lot less than 6
Cutting bidding before apocalypse is flat wrong imho. I may have flipflopped on that
(note: if you're not trying to combo as primary gameplan, bidding is probably worse since it lets other people potentially get you. for me, if I resolve bidding I have won the game like 90% and that extra mana to cast an altar or flashback
Sevinne's Reclamation or whatever is critical)
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:52 pm
by toctheyounger
pokken wrote: ↑1 year ago
I use this a lot but all things considered 5 is a lot less than 6
Cutting bidding before apocalypse is flat wrong imho. I may have flipflopped on that
(note: if you're not trying to combo as primary gameplan, bidding is probably worse since it lets other people potentially get you. for me, if I resolve bidding I have won the game like 90% and that extra mana to cast an altar or flashback
Sevinne's Reclamation or whatever is critical)
To me there's a lot of value in destroying all humans. There's a crap ton of hatebears out there and most of them are human.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:06 pm
by pokken
Hushbringer lols at being the only one that really matters
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:51 pm
by toctheyounger
Well, yeah. But like Drannith can kinda wreck us too. Winota is a monster, so is Kinnan. I'm sure there's a few more.
I think it's flip of a coin stuff myself. There's a case for either, it just depends what matters to the pilot.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:56 pm
by pzbw7z
You gotta play Zombie Apocalypse in Zombie tribal. It's in the manual!
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:23 pm
by pzbw7z
Has anyone given
Takenuma, Abandoned Mire a spin? There was discussion nearly a year ago which I had completely forgotten about, but I'm wondering if anyone has experiences.
I'd love to recur
Liliana, Untouched by Death now and then, but recurring a single creature might occasionally be nice as well. The trouble is, I just don't know where I'd slot it in.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:30 pm
by toctheyounger
pzbw7z wrote: ↑1 year ago
Has anyone given
Takenuma, Abandoned Mire a spin? There was discussion nearly a year ago which I had completely forgotten about, but I'm wondering if anyone has experiences.
I'd love to recur
Liliana, Untouched by Death now and then, but recurring a single creature might occasionally be nice as well. The trouble is, I just don't know where I'd slot it in.
It's probably easy enough to just swap a basic out for. I could see it being valuable from time to time (to be fair even
Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire could be good for favorable combats), and it's virtually unable to be interacted with barring a couple of real corner case cards. I guess the recursion occupies the same space as
Unholy Grotto and
Lord of the Undead (the ability for which I've used for the first time in the last week or so).
For myself I'm mulling over some changes too - I'm really on the fence with
Crucible of Worlds, it's always one I turf. Does anyone else get good mileage from it? I've also got
Entomb on the way and mulling
Dark Ritual too. It's just a nice way to push through for a quicker finish or an earlier start. I think it could be good.
As an aside,
Poxwalkers has been pretty gross. If you're ok with Warhammer in your MtG I can recommend it.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:37 pm
by pzbw7z
toctheyounger wrote: ↑1 year ago
pzbw7z wrote: ↑1 year ago
Has anyone given
Takenuma, Abandoned Mire a spin? There was discussion nearly a year ago which I had completely forgotten about, but I'm wondering if anyone has experiences.
I'd love to recur
Liliana, Untouched by Death now and then, but recurring a single creature might occasionally be nice as well. The trouble is, I just don't know where I'd slot it in.
It's probably easy enough to just swap a basic out for. . .
If I swap out one more Swamp, I might as well run
Tainted Pact!
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:37 am
by pokken
I only run crucible because it gives me some more intuition packages but it's super cuttable. Without intuition I would definitely not run it.
Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:39 am
by toctheyounger
pokken wrote: ↑1 year ago
I only run crucible because it gives me some more intuition packages but it's super cuttable. Without intuition I would definitely not run it.
It's for sure on the block for me. I don't think I've cast it once. I'll likely swap it out for enlightened tutor now that it's affordable lol