MTGNexus

metalmusic_4 wrote: ↑

motleyslayer wrote: ↑ I think that the Phoenix top 8 seems really diverse, 2 copies each of Lotus Breach and Inverter. Has the format adapted to the decks ?

I didn't watch the whole thing. Also hoping for a Burkhart win, he's one of my favourites

I feel the same way. I also didn't get to watch this weekend either, but I have started buying some of the inverter peices I need. It looks like a cool fun combo control deck, like twin in modern, which is my kind of deck. That T8 looks diverse enough to me.
If the inverter deck takes a ban, DTT may not be enough to stop it because I expect there are other delve cards that could be very functional as replacements. I'm thinking TC or murderous cut most obviously but some others may work too. If they killed it outright by banning inverter, Jace or Oracle I would be very sad.
This may be the deck that gets DTT and TC banned for the same reasons as in modern, one is being abused but they are good enough replacements for each other so they banned the other one too.

I might be speaking too soon but I'd like to see them let the format adapt for a bit before banning anything from the inverter deck. I mean it did have one PT where it put 5 or so copies in the top 8 but I think that could be because the deck was just discovered and people didn't really have time to prepare for it. I was thinking of building it myself

To be clear, I am not hoping for a ban but I do fear one may happen. I also hope they give it more time, at least a month but hopefully a bit longer, or you run the risk of an inadequate ban due to lack of information or rushed planning.
***cough***bridge from below***cough***

I don't think they can even ban anything with the information that they have. One thing I like about having the PT for teh Americas a week after the other 2 is that it gives players information with what to work with and how to build their decks based on the evens the weeks before. That way it allows WotC to see if decks are actually broken or people just need to adjust their 75 to playing against certain decks and allows the meta to evolve

gkourou wrote: ↑ GP Phoenix just put 5 UB Inverter decks into the top 8.

Looks like I might stand corrected in regards to the format adapting to it then. Is there any reason to think a lot of the top players in the PT were better able to answer it or is there any other data we have to support why it did so much better at the GP than the PT?

Inverter as a deck will eat a ban in the near future, as well it should. That type of deck is not okay if Pioneer is supposed to be a home for Standard alumni. It's particularly egregious in its dual use of DTT, a multi-format mistake, as a combo piece and a dispoprtionately powerful draw spell. 5 T8s at a GP following its previous PT/GP performance from the last few weeks is too much for Wizards to take in their new marquee nonrotating format.

Inverter and Breach both seem gross. I'm thinking Thassa's Oracle is the right ban here; both decks can continue to exist in weakened forms while minimizing the number of bans required. It's good to still have combo in the format as long as they're not heads and shoulders above the rest of the competition.

As for Dig Through Time, it's only a matter of time. Though banning it now doesn't really affect Lotus Breach and it will continue to terrorize.

Dig Through Time is the correct card to ban if you want to nerf Dimir Inverter without banning it out of existence, since it uses the card better than just about every other deck since it not only finds the combo, but thins out the graveyard.

As for Lotus Breach, if you are looking for a similar nerf ban there are a couple of options, but I am unsure how good they would be in practice (as there is a chance they are pretty replaceable). First off, for the deck, I don't believe banning Thassa's Oracle would do much considering William Jensen's second place deck didn't even play it. So unless they ban Thassa's Oracle, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, and maybe Laboratory Maniac, the deck probably won't be affected much since they are all easily replaceable in the deck. Fae of Wishes is probably the best choice since it looked like (based purely on what I saw) that Lotus Breach decks with Fae of Wishes did a lot better and were more resilient to hate than those that didn't. It also has the advantage of not harming any other deck. Another choice is Pore Over the Pages as I can't think of a good replacement for the card (though it might exist). I think those are maybe the best choices if they want to nerf it. There are also other cards like Thespian's Stage and Sylvan Scrying, but I feel like the chance for splash damage is higher with those two bans.

The other thing to also discuss is if WotC nerfs Lotus Breach and Dimir Inverter, should they also nerf Sultai Delirium, as out of the most popular decks the only ones Sultai has poor match-ups with (at a some-what relevant sample size) is Bant Spirits, Lotus Breach and Dimir Inverter.

Those win rates are very good, but UW was actually higher than the inverter decks. We may get a ban, or a few bans, relitivly soon but I truly believe we still need to wait a few weeks to see how the meta will shift. 1-2 stand out weeks is just not enough time to allow the meta to adjust adequately.

Going to my first Pioneer FNM on Wednesday and I'm really excited for it.
Haven't been able to attend Pioneer (or modern) FNM's since it started due to being busy, but I have assembled a Golgari Stompy deck and I'm hoping I'll be able to smash just one victory in

I'm thinking I'll get my ass handed to me most of the evening though hehe, but I don't care, I just want to throw some turn 2 Steel Leaf Champions and Ghalta with haste out

@Simto

goodluck on your first pioneer fnm. A short report would be appreciated if you can write one in another thread. ^^

gkourou wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Then, they will probably ban older cards like DTT, or Inverter, even if Breach, Thassa's Oracle are huge mistakes and the right bannings. This will happen on either the next Monday or 2 weeks after today.

This is what worries me. WotC not wanting to just make the correct ban allows formats to dwell with these clearly inappropriate cards. Even if the ban they make "fixes" things for now, we still end up with cards sitting backseat waiting to be busted again when R&D strays too close to "empty your library" in this instance.

I agree that Breach and Oracle are likely the correct bans and I would be elated to see them make those moves. Not doing so and banning something else just leaves the format open to another insurrection by the same cards.

As a side note, I'm not sure we can call out breach yet, but I certainly am no fan of it. It just hasn't put up the numbers, likely in part because of Inverter's over shadowing.

Also, after thinking about Inverter as a stand alone card, it's actually pretty cool in concept and I almost want to just BS around with it without Oracle just for fun stuff.

Does anybody have an idea why Tormod's Crypt isn't seeing more play? Particularly in more aggro based decks.

What decks are you looking to hose with Crypt? I ask because I feel like while yard stuff is common it's more often a sub theme than the center piece of a deck.

Maybe it was just me who was unlucky, but 3/4 decks I played against at fnm had stuff where I wish I could have removed their graveyards.
Stuff like Uro, izzet phoenix and a cycle/drake haven deck with a lot of graveyard stuff going on too. I was just immediately thinking about what to swap out for graveyard hate in my sideboard.

Just thought it was weird it wasn't being used since I realised it was Pioneer legal. It's so good

State of Pioneer = bad. Scg indy 6/8 decks combo. I love modern, Pioneer is a combo format

Even though I enjoy playing Pioneer at FNM myself, I find some joy in the irony of "Pioneer is like Modern but without all the uninteractive combo" turning into "Pioneer is like Modern but with worse interaction"

It was a lie, people often believe such thinks till reality comes back. Pioneer is to me a worse format full of unfair decks... Moden compared to this is fair. Yes they need to ban again decks like inverter and after heliod and after maybe breach... till after this next broken unfair deck will come. Enjoy this till they come to fnm too. The only think why it's funny there is, because people don't buy unfair decks there because of ban frightening

Here we go again...

By the way gkouro, your opinion is your opinion... But fact is, Pioneer top 8 was a combo fest. 6 / 8 is more as modern with ramp. Youbrejember a time where 6/8 decks in modern was ramp decks? What would you say if this happened in modern? I ask you only because you compared it with ramp in modern. Pioneer is objective broken combo at this point

Why do People keep parroting weird opinions about answers is beyond me...

Is it so Hard to grasp that answers have No power level on a vacuum but only a relative one to the threats they're called to deal with? Modern is plagued by big mana decks that effectively Win on t3, super linear aggro decks that actually Win before t3, random %$#% combos that can even Win at t1 and the occasional uw/bg heroes that actually try to play magic (most of the time against a wall of degenerate cards)

Pioneer has some answers that are boarderline broken for the format with the most obvious being TS, unsurprisingly its being used In playsets In a number of sucessfull strategies like sultai delirium, mono Black aggro and of course the dreaded inverter which is naturally the best ts deck

Even if better answers were to be printed you have No reason not to use inverter as your wincon of choice because its simply better than playing random bombs, so yeah inverter is better than scarab god and No amount of answers is going to change this

If anything the pioneer Meta has proven surprisingly resilient to the degerate lotus decks whos reign is already over

Inverter while i agree that the winrate is a bit too high is by No means a problematic deck, if anything its a deck that guarantees a minimum of 5 turns of interactive magic, usually 6-8

As for mono White devotion its Just a value oriented deck with a back up wincon In its combo

Sultai rocks, uw is managing to keep up and aggro is fine In both Red, Black and spirit variants

In short if you want to play either of TS or teferi pioneer is the right format to do so, ironically enough Just like Modern expect it actually Last 6+ turns...

Now can we please not make this the place In which Modern players Come to vent everytime the attendancy of their fnm drops? Or lets make an official Modern vs pioneer thread with loose regulation and let the flames go high!

Come on, modern player? Seems more people playing Pioneer don't want to see reality. No matter if you think inverter or heliod is OK or not... 50% inverter and 25% heliod is to much for a new format which should be funny and different. Combofest, believe it or not Pioneer people's in the world. Trust the meta, no matter if you don't like it

I'm also not exactly ecstatic about the current top level meta either but at least my LGS has avoided it. Though the affect of dodging the combo nonsense has been supplanted with 70ish% aggro decks looking to slide as low as possible under the combo radar. We had a week or two of roughly half and half combo vs aggro and the aggro players seem to have made their point.

It's pretty rough no matter how you want to look at it.

I feel as though the thread is silent because we all quietly agree with the incoming Inverter of Truth or Thassa's Oracle ban. I certainly have no argument.

Does anyone think anything else will go? Maybe a hit to Lotus Breach as well?

Honestly, I think the line of text that wins the game is unfortunate. I've been having fun playing both cards separately in various things. Inverter can stack your deck and set you up for a push if you know what you're doing, Oracle is fun to flicker with new Thassa for deck sifting nnonsense. I'll be sort of sad to see either go at this point.

If Lotus Breach takes a hit I won't shed a tear, real or otherwise.

My personal predictions for bannings are:

Dig Through Time
Lotus Field

I personally don't want Inverter itself banned, it's not the problem here, it's Dig being able to exile the entire graveyard.

As for Field, Pore over the Pages is a possible banning, but I doubt it, they'll probably ban Field and destroy an entire archetype.

Guardman wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Dig Through Time is the correct card to ban if you want to nerf Dimir Inverter without banning it out of existence, since it uses the card better than just about every other deck since it not only finds the combo, but thins out the graveyard.

Boom! That is exactly what I think should happen and for exactly those reasons.

But what will WOTC actually do? Who knows.