MTGNexus

@ Sheriff, as it was doing something funny when I went to quote:

I think to understand it is to think about it in the reverse. Sometimes, everything was waiting for Paradox Engine. If everything was running fine, then Paradox engine made that jump to lightspeed. Seedborn Muse can FEEL that way too, but isn't nearly as easy to abuse on an as-cast basis. Paradox Engine did nothing on it's own, true, but it enabled everything with a tap symbol, or attackers to give pseudo vigilance worst case (hi Feather, the Redeemed )

Back to Basics and Blood Moon only hold sway over expensive or I suppose 4-5 color mana bases, so I suppose this is more a concern for cEDH players generally. I myself always bring a healthy dose of basics even when I ran Kozilek, and that wasn't for lack on other lands.

@[mention]Candlemane[/mention],

Aside from Mono-Colored decks, people seem to get really greedy with mana bases (I know I do, but that's mostly because I love non-Basic Lands.. My favorite card type.) Even casual players have a bunch of non-Basics, and I've even seen some casual players with NO Basics.. lol It's not just the cEDH crowd. ;P

Though I imagine Winter Orb would go before either of those Enchantments do.

And Painter's skyrocketing in price. We'll have to see if it sticks or comes crashing down...

[mention]Candlemane[/mention] me too, I reported it.

[mention]Bookstooge[/mention] Protean Hulk went from $2 to $20 minutes after it was unbanned. It settled to around $12 before it got reprinted.

Henlock wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I see the Iona ban more as a casualty of Painter Servant's unban. I don't quite buy the "philosophy" behind the ban, but I can see why they wouldn't want them together

For at least a couple of years now on MTGS when people championed for those two cards to be banned and unbanned respectively, the RC on numerous occasions said that banning Iona wouldn't affect Painter's status, because it was more than just Iona interactions. But I wholeheartedly agree that they can't both be legal at the same time, and if "well we want to unban Painter so we have to axe Iona" is the sacrifice we have to make, its a good sacrifice.

cryogen wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@Candlemane me too, I reported it.

@Bookstooge Protean Hulk went from $2 to $20 minutes after it was unbanned. It settled to around $12 before it got reprinted.

I've been enjoying the salt on r/mtgfiance over PE losing so much value..that's what you get for playing Magic: The Investment.....

I managed to sneak in this morning before my LGS opened. Traded Paradox Engine for $42 store credit before the price plummets. I feel a bit stink about it, but there's also stuff I want, so...

toctheyounger wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I managed to sneak in this morning before my LGS opened. Traded Paradox Engine for $42 store credit before the price plummets. I feel a bit stink about it, but there's also stuff I want, so...

Are we supposed to support you on this? Sure, it behooves an LGS to keep up with this kind of thing, but it's kinda scummy. LGS's aren't typically all that profitable, and you took advantage of them, to put it mildly.

Anyway, someone brought up Flash and Protean Hulk earlier, and I too have never seen this done, even though I understand its power. I have a deck that revolves around death triggers, and let me tell ya, Flashing out a Keiga, the Tide Star to steel an opposing Blightsteel Colossus is a great feeling. I'd be very disappointed if it got the hammer.

pokken wrote: ↑

5 years ago

My markup below

Paradox Engine is a card that has proven to be intensely problematic. Not only does it provide easy wins seemingly out of nowhere, it has demonstrated the potential to unintentionally wreck games. Easily inserted into many decks, it combines with cards which players already have heavy incentives to play, generating a great deal of mana often very early in games with virtually no minimal deck building cost. While we don’t ban cards which are only problematic if you build around them, Paradox Engine has clearly demonstrated that it doesn’t need to be built around to be broken strongly synergizes with enough different gameplans to be too easily broken casually.

That is much more accurately worded. Don;t get me wrong Paradox Engine was easy to build around and break, and oh I did it, but at the same time you had to make sure your configuration was right, for example I made sure that my artifact mana was colored when it came to casting spells for particular decks. Plus you needed to play enough non-land mana sources to make it work.
But I'm not sorry to see it leave.

We had a discussion with Seldon involved with Painter's Servant only a month or so ago, and I pointed out just how many other things were going on in the format with busted stuff, and that Painter's Servant could be used for much more janky themes.

My friends are already swearing that they are going to put Painter's Servant and Grindstone into every deck, but I already know that once they draw both of them 9 out of 10 games without the other, they'll figure out they are dead cards on their own, and figure out their decks are worse for it. My friends always have to learn these things the hard way

If you are going to run this combo, then you want to make sure that each card is individually better.
What makes Painter's Servant better? Color specific removal? Sure, but then that removal is pretty bad on it's own if it doesn't suite the matchups.
I do play Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast in decks due strong blue meta, so if I can work in Painter's Servant into a red deck, that might be OK?
Pitch cards a little better, like Force of Will, Force of Negation, Force of Vigor, ..
There is the All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon board sweeping combos, but they are symmetric, and if you wanted to keep Painter's Servant in play you'd not be able to remove anything above CMC 2 with Ugin, which would be problematic most times as far as getting pressured.

If I was looking to play the Grindstone combo, then I'd want a deck that has a graveyard strategy of realistically mono-colored, maybe two colored.
Meren of Clan Nel Toth or Glissa, the Traitor would probably be fine.
You could try it for Muldrotha, the Gravetide, but the three colors is going to make it pretty much ineffective as far as more mill value.
Arcum Dagsson could look to run it instead of Paradox Engine as a combo, but getting one person at a time, isn't the same as winning on the spot.

They'll definitely be some homes for competitive combos Painter's Servant, but I'd need to really think about it a lot before I'd come to any decisions on what exactly.

RxPhantom wrote: ↑

5 years ago

toctheyounger wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I managed to sneak in this morning before my LGS opened. Traded Paradox Engine for $42 store credit before the price plummets. I feel a bit stink about it, but there's also stuff I want, so...

Are we supposed to support you on this? Sure, it behooves an LGS to keep up with this kind of thing, but it's kinda scummy. LGS's aren't typically all that profitable, and you took advantage of them, to put it mildly.

I didn't ask for your support, just stating a fact. I'm well aware it's crummy, but frankly I am on a very tight budget for this game - every new card I get is on the back of trading for it, so I lose value every time I build a new deck, and my LGS gains value. In fact, within the last month I traded a Mycosynth Lattice for like $15 store credit to the same LGS, who is now selling it for $80. Besides which, when I do have money, I spend it with the same LGS and no one else. So yeah, he might have lost out on this one (by what maybe ten bucks? How low is it going to actually go? It's never going to be a dollar bin rare), but he's done just fine out of both myself and my wife in the past, if not turned a pretty good profit. Not only that, we're on good terms - he's a friend, a fellow player, collector, and knows how this sort of thing plays out, so he's usually happy for one of his patrons to do well from a trade, knowing that it all comes around in the end. And it does, I know he's a good sort of person who looks after his patrons, so I continue to trade, buy, play and game with him, and promote within the local community too.

I get what you're saying man, but context is relevant.

darrenhabib wrote: ↑

5 years ago

We had a discussion with Seldon involved with Painter's Servant only a month or so ago, and I pointed out just how many other things were going on in the format with busted stuff, and that Painter's Servant could be used for much more janky themes.

My friends are already swearing that they are going to put Painter's Servant and Grindstone into every deck, but I already know that once they draw both of them 9 out of 10 games without the other, they'll figure out they are dead cards on their own, and figure out their decks are worse for it. My friends always have to learn these things the hard way

If you are going to run this combo, then you want to make sure that each card is individually better.
What makes Painter's Servant better? Color specific removal? Sure, but then that removal is pretty bad on it's own if it doesn't suite the matchups.
I do play Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast in decks due strong blue meta, so if I can work in Painter's Servant into a red deck, that might be OK?
Pitch cards a little better, like Force of Will, Force of Negation, Force of Vigor, ..
There is the All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon board sweeping combos, but they are symmetric, and if you wanted to keep Painter's Servant in play you'd not be able to remove anything above CMC 2 with Ugin, which would be problematic most times as far as getting pressured.

If I was looking to play the Grindstone combo, then I'd want a deck that has a graveyard strategy of realistically mono-colored, maybe two colored.
Meren of Clan Nel Toth or Glissa, the Traitor would probably be fine.
You could try it for Muldrotha, the Gravetide, but the three colors is going to make it pretty much ineffective as far as more mill value.
Arcum Dagsson could look to run it instead of Paradox Engine as a combo, but getting one person at a time, isn't the same as winning on the spot.

They'll definitely be some homes for competitive combos Painter's Servant, but I'd need to really think about it a lot before I'd come to any decisions on what exactly.

I might be having some kinda weird reading of Painter/Grindstone but killing one person every turn cycle because Grindstone taps seems bad to me especially when both cards are individually quite bad. Helm/Rip doesn't see a ton of EDH play and both of those cards are at least not horrible.

The reason Paradox engine was good is that it let you go infinite playing basically no bad cards. That's why everyone likes Dramatic Scepter - both sides have reasonable uses on their own, with Scepter being grotesque with some other cards (e.g. Mystical Tutor).

Painter and Grindstone will never see competitive play in CEDH in my opinion. Not in anything. It's just an inefficient way to win the game for someone else when they kill it after the biggest threat dies. I think it's distantly possible Painter-Ugin sees play in a variety of areas, since at least half that combo is good. But CEDH decks can't really go around drawing multiple bricks.

These bans were long overdue.

Please unban Sway of the Stars, Gifts Ungiven and Prophet of Kruphix.

I'll settle for just Gifts Ungiven, though.

Jace wrote: ↑

5 years ago

These bans were long overdue.

Please unban Sway of the Stars, Gifts Ungiven and Prophet of Kruphix.

I'll settle for just Gifts Ungiven, though.

Agreed. Gifts needs to come off the list.

Good to see Sheldon finally listening to my infinite wisdom right [mention]cryogen[/mention] . Only took years and years of whining.

Jivanmukta wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Good to see Sheldon finally listening to my infinite wisdom right @cryogen . Only took years and years of whining.

And yet I'm not banned...

Pretty happy to see Iona leave; will free up a couple of slots in my monocolour decks for more fun stuff.

Jace wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Please unban Sway of the Stars, Gifts Ungiven and Prophet of Kruphix.

I'd love to get Sway of the Stars into Nezahal. I'd also love to get Gifts Ungiven, simply because the ability is so unique. (I still remember it being my favourite card when CoK was spoiled and it was one of the main reasons I ever played Modern).

As someone who never experienced Gifts Ungiven in Commander, are there any other two-card combos (excluding the still-banned Iona-Painter combo) that were responsible for its banning? Or was it more generally that it can act as a double Demonic Tutor once you choose Noxious Revival and Unburial Rites (or similar) as the other two cards?

I also never experienced the days of Prophet of Kruphix, but I assume it's good enough having the ability to build our own Prophet v2.0 for now? Although I can certainly appreciate how much better it gets to have two cards printed in one.

There are not any two card combos to my knowledge, and pretty much any combo it can dig for requires a total mana investment equivalent to Tooth and Nail. So the only arguments as I see it are that it's faster (turn 4 EOT gifts into turn 5 combo), and that it's blue (I guess?). But I think with the quantity of blue generals we are seeing that explore graveyard design space, it's a shame that we can only get this effect on an expensive reserve list card.

cryogen wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Jivanmukta wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Good to see Sheldon finally listening to my infinite wisdom right @cryogen . Only took years and years of whining.

And yet I'm not banned...

Oh, I'm sure it'll be coming. Just wait, cryo.

Darn, the Engine I bought for $9 at release and turned into $50 some time ago is now $10. Curse it all, I made $1!

Well, it was fun and I got two years of solid pubstomping with my good ol' engine. Definitely one of my favorite powerful cards of all time, right up there with necropotence and grim monolith. Sad to see it go, but it was all so worth it.

Darn, the Engine I bought for $9 at release and turned into $50 some time ago is now $10. Curse it all, I made $1!

Well, it was fun and I got two years of solid pubstomping with my good ol' engine. Definitely one of my favorite powerful cards of all time, right up there with necropotence and grim monolith. Sad to see it go, but it was all so worth it.

I have no particular issue with the new bans, and I'm always up for an unban, but there has to be a way to phrase the rationale for banning Iona that doesn't paint the RC as out of touch. You don't need a Washington DC spin doctor to come to the conclusion that they thought players weren't casting Iona till turn nine - till now. I can only imagine the revelation that players weren't waiting to play their 9th plains on turn 15 before casting Iona fairly.

Myllior wrote: ↑

5 years ago

As someone who never experienced Gifts Ungiven in Commander, are there any other two-card combos (excluding the still-banned Iona-Painter combo) that were responsible for its banning? Or was it more generally that it can act as a double Demonic Tutor once you choose Noxious Revival and Unburial Rites (or similar) as the other two cards?

Mostly for the double Demonic Tutor effect. You effectively put the opponent in a position where no matter what they give you, they have to give you your combo win. I think Sharuum was the poster child: you could make a Gifts pile along the lines of Sculpting Steel, Disciple of the Vault, Reanimate, and Animate Dead, and your opponent would have to give you a winning hand.

Gifts is probably a card that's gotten stronger over time too... with so many strong 3- and 4-color blue decks out there, there's probably a lot of mayhem it could make.

Myllior wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I also never experienced the days of Prophet of Kruphix, but I assume it's good enough having the ability to build our own Prophet v2.0 for now? Although I can certainly appreciate how much better it gets to have two cards printed in one.

Kinda. The biggest problem with Prophet was that you effectively got to take a turn on each of your opponents turns, which could set you up to Archenemy the table (or, if not win, at least hog up all the play time until your friends murdered you).

no, please don't ever unban Prophet. One of the most broken mistake cards ever to see print for multiplayer games.

Kemev wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Kinda. The biggest problem with Prophet was that you effectively got to take a turn on each of your opponents turns, which could set you up to Archenemy the table (or, if not win, at least hog up all the play time until your friends murdered you).

Thanks for the explanations. I was more wondering what it is that pushed Prophet of Kruphix onto the banlist while the Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Seedborn Muse combo is still free? Although I guess I answered myself already; it's the combination of the two effects on one card that pushes it over the edge, since it can never be played in a way that isn't readily abusable. Cheers again.

To those wondering why flash-hulk is "fine" when Paradox Engine is apparently not, I think part of it is that you really need to be all in on the spikeyness to run Flash-Hulk. It's a complicated combo that you need to learn to perform, and needs specific cards in your deck. If you're playing Flash-Hulk combo it's because you went out of your way to research the most powerful, winningest thing you could do, and decided to do that. Paradox is also capable of busted stuff but you can also just jam it in your artifact deck and oops your way to victory over the course of a 10 minute durdle without ever really knowing what you're doing.