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Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:48 pm
by Feyd_Ruin
dangerousdice wrote: ↑3 years ago
Krishnath wrote: ↑3 years ago
I also has a suggestion for a general creature mechanic that I think would work well with both the tribal aspects and the enchantment theme. It basically gives the creature with the ability a small power/toughness boost if you control a specific type of permanent (or a specific permanent, it's open ended like that). I call it
Dominion, but it really needs a better name. It basically reads:
Dominion - X (This creature gets +1/+1 if you control X).
would "status" be a better name for dominion?
status - X (This creature gets +1/+1 if you control X).
With our hoitytoity dauthi, maybe "Prestige"?
Prestige — ~ has (ability or +? Or always +?) as long as you control X or more ___s.
We could change what it cares about you controlling so Enchanters could care about enchantments, Aristocrats could care about number of lands, tribal lords a creature type, etc etc.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:02 pm
by Krishnath
dangerousdice wrote: ↑3 years ago
Krishnath wrote: ↑3 years ago
I also has a suggestion for a general creature mechanic that I think would work well with both the tribal aspects and the enchantment theme. It basically gives the creature with the ability a small power/toughness boost if you control a specific type of permanent (or a specific permanent, it's open ended like that). I call it
Dominion, but it really needs a better name. It basically reads:
Dominion - X (This creature gets +1/+1 if you control X).
would "status" be a better name for dominion?
status - X (This creature gets +1/+1 if you control X).
Status could work.
Edit: Prestige would work better, and yes, the whole idea of the ability is that it is something really simple. Always +1/+1. But a creature could have multiple iterations of the ability caring about different things. For example:
Prestige - Enchantments
Prestige - Artifact
Giving the creature +2/+2 if you control both.
Feyd_Ruin wrote: ↑3 years ago
SecretInfiltrator wrote: ↑3 years ago
I don't care too much about enchantment creatures (especially Elementals again) in this set
I'm still not completely sold on the idea, but we haven't had enchantment elementals before?
Lucent Liminid exists, and there were three nyxborn who happened to be elementals. Otherwise nothing. But I posit we could have enchantment creatures if we stuck with nonsentients like elementals / incarnations. They are enchantment magic given physical form.
It's what makes sense to me without being too Theros-like. Having enchantment elves or anything else that has a soul or real physical life — basically anything you expect to be born as a baby, makes it feel too close to nyxborn to me.
Except the nyxborn weren't born, they were created by the gods directly. But that is a minor issue. I really like the idea of using it for the faeries as well, they have such short lives anyway on the plane, and I kind of like the idea of them hatching from some sort of mana fruit, fully formed.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:49 pm
by SecretInfiltrator
I like enchantment for the Fairies, if anywhere. maybe the vegetation, too, if they are connected. I imagine the nights on the plane to be very
Starry Night.
Not hot on dominion/status/prestige. It's backwards and doesn't really support
any theme well, because they could belong to any. How many
Arctic Avens do you even want in your set? You usually have a few cards like that anyway and it just makes this feel like an evergreen, except it wouldn't be evergreen because the freedom to just alter the bonus to e. g. +1/+0 and haste every now and then is more valuable etc.
I like the idea of using Aura tokens over counters though I'd conversely would have suggested ability counters at least for flying. It could be a neat trick to play with the amount of flying in the set if it is achieved e. g. through "renown - flying". Anyway, if we want to use Aura tokens, we probably want to create a keyword action that allows us to skimp on the full wording that usually requires (due to mandatory "with enchant creature" and "enchanted creature gets +1/+1") e. g. "When ~ enters the battlefield, infuse target creature with a white +1/+1 Aura."
One thought I had was to look at mounts again for spider-riding and drake-riding and flying seahorse-riding etc. Maybe not keyworded on just a cycle . I'd model it after crew: "Tap an untapped creature you control with power 2 or less: ~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Activate only once per turn."
Another thought inspired by the "red and shouldn't have enchantment creatures because our red people have other mentality", I thought about maybe having some different focus in Auras for the colors e. g. white-blue would have enchant artifacts, green-white more enchant enchantments, red-green could enchant creatures, and so on. somewhere there could be Curses. Having looked over the enchantment types we might want to return, that's an interesting one.
Sagas are basically deciduous, though funnily enough I don't feel the creative side of the plane particularly calls for them, though we could always use them to tell the current events e. g. "Dragon's Raid" or "<Planeswalker name>'s Stand/Rise/Fall" etc.
An early idea I had was to try and check whether we can actually represent the idea of floating/drifting lands mechanically e. g. lands that enter with flying counters that can be past on to creatures.
Being a top-down set we might want to just start with a list of things that we think really should be represented in the cards and maybe we'll find mechanical space to keyword that way.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:02 pm
by void_nothing
I wouldn't hate if the uncommon dual cycle, for example, were:
"ETB tapped with a flying counter on it.
T: Add M or N.
2, T: Move a flying counter from this onto target creature."
This could be adjusted in a number of ways to move the rarity if we so desire. At rare for example we could do something wacky with a +1/+1 and a flying counter.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:42 pm
by Venedrex
SecretInfiltrator wrote: ↑3 years ago
I like enchantment for the Fairies, if anywhere. maybe the vegetation, too, if they are connected. I imagine the nights on the plane to be very
Starry Night.
Not hot on dominion/status/prestige. It's backwards and doesn't really support
any theme well, because they could belong to any. How many
Arctic Avens do you even want in your set? You usually have a few cards like that anyway and it just makes this feel like an evergreen, except it wouldn't be evergreen because the freedom to just alter the bonus to e. g. +1/+0 and haste every now and then is more valuable etc.
I like the idea of using Aura tokens over counters though I'd conversely would have suggested ability counters at least for flying. It could be a neat trick to play with the amount of flying in the set if it is achieved e. g. through "renown - flying". Anyway, if we want to use Aura tokens, we probably want to create a keyword action that allows us to skimp on the full wording that usually requires (due to mandatory "with enchant creature" and "enchanted creature gets +1/+1") e. g. "When ~ enters the battlefield, infuse target creature with a white +1/+1 Aura."
One thought I had was to look at mounts again for spider-riding and drake-riding and flying seahorse-riding etc. Maybe not keyworded on just a cycle . I'd model it after crew: "Tap an untapped creature you control with power 2 or less: ~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Activate only once per turn."
Another thought inspired by the "red and shouldn't have enchantment creatures because our red people have other mentality", I thought about maybe having some different focus in Auras for the colors e. g. white-blue would have enchant artifacts, green-white more enchant enchantments, red-green could enchant creatures, and so on. somewhere there could be Curses. Having looked over the enchantment types we might want to return, that's an interesting one.
Sagas are basically deciduous, though funnily enough I don't feel the creative side of the plane particularly calls for them, though we could always use them to tell the current events e. g. "Dragon's Raid" or "<Planeswalker name>'s Stand/Rise/Fall" etc.
An early idea I had was to try and check whether we can actually represent the idea of floating/drifting lands mechanically e. g. lands that enter with flying counters that can be past on to creatures.
Being a top-down set we might want to just start with a list of things that we think really should be represented in the cards and maybe we'll find mechanical space to keyword that way.
I agree with you about this plane not needing sagas, I think we could use them if we really wanted to, but I think not having them could be a good way to distinguish ourselves from planes like Kaldheim, Theros, and Dominaria. Like you said, they could be made to work, but as this is a brand new plane that doesn't have a lot of real world mythical stories to draw on, I don't think they are necessary.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:05 pm
by Legend
How many mechanics are intended (other than evergreens) - five?
How many archetypes will the set have and what will they be per color group?
Are four-colored factions a consideration?
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:10 pm
by dangerousdice
void_nothing wrote: ↑3 years ago
I wouldn't hate if the uncommon dual cycle, for example, were:
"ETB tapped with a flying counter on it.
T: Add M or N.
2,
T: Move a flying counter from this onto target creature."
This could be adjusted in a number of ways to move the rarity if we so desire. At rare for example we could do something wacky with a +1/+1 and a flying counter.
I like that! one of the rares could be something along the idea of a island with a fading conection to the leylines, so after you remove the last counter, it sacs itself. maybe something like this?
unstable isle
land -
enters the battlefield tapped with 3 flying counters on it.
T:: Add [card].
3,
T: Move a flying counter from this onto target creature without flying.
at the beginning of your upkeep, if there is no flying counters on unstable isle, sacrifice it. you may have it deal 3 damage to target creature.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:15 pm
by void_nothing
Legend wrote: ↑3 years ago
Are four-colored factions a consideration?
I don't know what anybody else thinks but this is a resounding %$#% no from me for two reasons. One, there's no conceivable reason for this to be a faction set. Two, four-color is fun for something smaller like a few cards for a contest, Commander decks, or Collaborative Create-A-Booster but it has many problems for a full set.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:52 pm
by Legend
void_nothing wrote: ↑3 years ago
Legend wrote: ↑3 years ago
Are four-colored factions a consideration?
this is a resounding %$#% no from me
What I meant was, each mechanic spread through four color, not "factions"..
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:00 am
by Krishnath
Legend wrote: ↑3 years ago
void_nothing wrote: ↑3 years ago
Legend wrote: ↑3 years ago
Are four-colored factions a consideration?
this is a resounding %$#% no from me
What I meant was, each mechanic spread through four color, not "factions"..
You have no idea just how hard that is to accomplish, the only reason that reweave is omitted from black is because of something that black is not allowed to do: Destroying their own enchantments. In general, omitting colors from mechanics is a bad idea unless the mechanic is limited to three or less colors, else you risk the format getting ruled by five color "good stuff" decks that are all the same. Bigger factions work for more limited products like preconstructed decks.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:02 am
by Feyd_Ruin
I'm going to go into a deep dive design tangent for a moment.
(As always, just a thought; don't hesitate to disagree with something)
Our tribes are enemy-colored, and even if we don't go with gold-colored cards, their presence across those main two colors will be pronounced. If we have the mechanics go in an opposing direction, we'll get a lot of coverage and have some interesting layers.
What I propose is to embrace the enemy color concept of each tribe, but have the mechanics spread across three colors like a shard.
Visualized:
Tribes:
Dauthi
Viashino
Elves
Soltari
Thalakos
Mechanics:
Prestige
?Unknown1
?Unknown2
Reweave
?Unknown3
Each tribe would have access to each mechanic, but it would create layers because each tribe would interpret it slightly differently, as well as by seeing it different colors. The Dauthi and the Elves would both be able to Reweave, for instance, but neither from their black aspects; one sees an interpretation in their minor white color, while the other is the centerpiece of both their tribe and mechanic in green. Only the Soltari see reweave in two colors, but they lack the centerpiece green that the elves have.
Each mechanic would likewise be diversified across all tribes. The "faction" barrier would be crossed/destroyed by the mechanics, we can explore a lot of ground, and we can still do mechanics that work in most, but not all, colors.
Thoughts?
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:13 am
by Venedrex
Feyd_Ruin wrote: ↑3 years ago
I'm going to go into a deep dive design tangent for a moment.
(As always, just a thought; don't hesitate to disagree with something)
Our tribes are enemy-colored, and even if we don't go with gold-colored cards, their presence across those main two colors will be pronounced. If we have the mechanics go in an opposing direction, we'll get a lot of coverage and have some interesting layers.
What I propose is to embrace the enemy color concept of each tribe, but have the mechanics spread across three colors like a shard.
Visualized:
Tribes:
Dauthi
Viashino
Elves
Soltari
Thalakos
Mechanics:
Prestige
?Unknown1
?Unknown2
Reweave
?Unknown3
Each tribe would have access to each mechanic, but it would create layers because each tribe would interpret it slightly differently, as well as by seeing it different colors. The Dauthi and the Elves would both be able to Reweave, for instance, but neither from their black aspects; one sees an interpretation in their minor white color, while the other is the centerpiece of both their tribe and mechanic in green. Only the Soltari see reweave in two colors, but they lack the centerpiece green that the elves have.
Each mechanic would likewise be diversified across all tribes. The "faction" barrier would be crossed/destroyed by the mechanics, we can explore a lot of ground, and we can still do mechanics that work in most, but not all, colors.
Thoughts?
I'd be down for something like this. I appreciate the effort you've gone to lay it out in such a helpful way, it really clarifies how things are looking so far. At this point my mind goes to three main things. How other sets have divided mechanics among colors, what returning mechanic(s) we will have, and what our new mechanics require (such as the aforementioned sacrificing of enchantments that makes reweave unable to be found in black). I like reweave being on red cards because sacrificing enchantments feels like the best way to get red in on the action in an enchantment focused set, just like Wizards did in Theros.
Other than that, I think we might want to focus on thinking about what roles our mechanics will fill in the set, in addition to their job in meeting flavor demands. For instance, Dominaria had a big focus on the past, and legendaries, so Wotc came up with Historic to meet that need. Off the top of my head, almost every plane that exists can be mechanically or flavorfully summed up in two words. Eldraine: Fairy Tales, Ikoria: Befriending Monsters, Dominaria: History Matters, Zendikar: Lands Matter, Innistrad: Gothic Horror, and so on and so forth. So for the Shattered Realm, what two words describe it in a nutshell?
We know we have the three races that have some kind of a connection, we know we want an enchantment theme, and we know we want a whole lot of open sky and flight. So what does all that look like when we put it together? Sky World? Limitless Magic? Enchanted World? From there I think we might have a better grasp on what the set needs in terms of mechanics. Just my two cents.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:33 am
by Legend
Venedrex wrote: ↑3 years ago
So for the Shattered Realm, what two words describe it in a nutshell?
"shattered realm" 🤓
I'll see myself out now . . .
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:37 am
by void_nothing
"Unexplored Skies" or "Resilient Cultures" maybe? I'm not sure we need an elevator pitch that's quite so easily distilled primarily because the audience is people who are as enfranchised as all of us are. Take New Phyrexia - that's "Mirrodin + Phyrexia" but you need to know what both those things are to care.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:41 am
by Venedrex
Legend wrote: ↑3 years ago
Venedrex wrote: ↑3 years ago
So for the Shattered Realm, what two words describe it in a nutshell?
"shattered realm" 🤓
I'll see myself out now . . .
I definitely deserved that.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:42 am
by Feyd_Ruin
While the set doesn't have to be distilled down, the mechanical overview — what this set is doing mechanically — should be fairly simple to grok. I think we have two competing ideas: In creative we were looking at Flying Matters fairly strongly, but here in design, we're looking more like Enchantments Matter. We should pick one and run with it.
I prefer the latter.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:46 am
by Venedrex
void_nothing wrote: ↑3 years ago
"Unexplored Skies" or "Resilient Cultures" maybe? I'm not sure we need an elevator pitch that's quite so easily distilled primarily because the audience is people who are as enfranchised as all of us are. Take New Phyrexia - that's "Mirrodin + Phyrexia" but you need to know what
both those things are to care.
You make a good point that this is primarily for the enfranchised. However, I'd argue that New Phyrexia's two words are Completely Metal.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:01 am
by dangerousdice
heres a idea I had for a mechanic that I believe would fit well! it's my take on a enchamtment equivelant for vehicles.
animate N (Tap any number of creatures you control with total mana value N or more: This embodiment becomes an enchantment creature until end of turn.)
and some examples!
geyser-blaze rusher R
enchantment - embodiment
haste
animate 2 (Tap any number of creatures you control with total mana value 2 or more: This embodiment becomes an enchantment creature until end of turn.)
3/1
fractal mindcrawler 2u
enchantment - embodiment
when ~ deals damage to a player, you may exile it. if your do, draw 7 cards. you have no maximium hand size for the rest of the game.
animate 5 (Tap any number of creatures you control with total mana value 5 or more: This embodiment becomes an enchantment creature until end of turn.)
1/1
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:08 am
by void_nothing
Something like Embodiments would be a big help for the as-fan and keying to CMC rather than power is quite clever. I think we would need to nail it with the flavor though, as well as possibly doing some mechanical tweaking - I can tentatively support the concept.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:27 am
by SecretInfiltrator
Krishnath wrote: ↑3 years ago
the only reason that reweave is omitted from black is because of something that black is not allowed to do: Destroying their own enchantments.
Now that you mention it, that kinda mixes badly with Elf/Spider culture being black-green and the mechanic they inspire being excluded from one of their colors.
Venedrex wrote: ↑3 years ago
Eldraine: Fairy Tales, Ikoria: Befriending Monsters, Dominaria: History Matters, Zendikar: Lands Matter, Innistrad: Gothic Horror, and so on and so forth. So for the Shattered Realm, what two words describe it in a nutshell?
Enchanted Skies.
But you are missing 50% of the sales pitch of Eldraine anyway.
Ixalan's pitch was "Vampire Conquistadors" and I dare you to get that first response before "Pirates vs. Dinosaurs" or even "Lost World" after iterating the design process.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:41 am
by Krishnath
Feyd_Ruin wrote: ↑3 years ago
While the set doesn't have to be distilled down, the mechanical overview — what this set is doing mechanically — should be fairly simple to grok. I think we have two competing ideas: In creative we were looking at Flying Matters fairly strongly, but here in design, we're looking more like Enchantments Matter. We should pick one and run with it.
I prefer the latter.
One does not preclude the other, really. Flying (and evasion in general) is keyed to creatures and can simply be represented by having more creatures with flying and reach (and possibly other types of evasion) than usually found in a set. Upping the number of a keyword or two to push the flavor of the set is a very easy tool to use. Adding a spell or two more than normal that is anti that (or those) mechanics further nails the flavor.
I am also heavily in favor of your mechanical "bridges" between the tribes. It is a very clever way to solve the whole thing. Now we just need to find the remaining three mechanics. As such looking at what the three remaining color combinations (
UBR,
BRG, and
GWU) are good at could give us an indication of which way to go when exploring mechanics.
Which raises an interesting question: Should we use an already existing mechanic for any of them, or should we only use new mechanics?
On a side note: While I do not think we necessarily need to lean heavily into multicolor, a few multicolored cards outside of the 10 card signpost uncommon cycle is a good idea. Particularly at higher rarities (uncommon/rare/mythic).
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:28 am
by SecretInfiltrator
I don't mind having seemingly perpendicular themes. Add some Auras that grant flying and already they interact.
Top-down designs (and since we started with a Creative vision, that's what we have here) don't need only a singular theme. Remember the jumbled mess that Theros was thanks to having three "themes" (Gods, Heroes, Monsters)? Remember how Zendikar was land-themed, but had plenty of Traps and Allies that don't really mechanically tied directly into that?
I, personally, am still looking for more mechanical angles to approach the Creative we have laid out (e. g. through lands), not less.
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:00 pm
by Krishnath
SecretInfiltrator wrote: ↑3 years ago
I don't mind having seemingly perpendicular themes. Add some Auras that grant flying and already they interact.
Top-down designs (and since we started with a Creative vision, that's what we have here) don't need only a singular theme. Remember the jumbled mess that
Theros was thanks to having three "themes" (Gods, Heroes, Monsters)? Remember how
Zendikar was land-themed, but had plenty of Traps and Allies that don't really mechanically tied directly into that?
I, personally, am still looking for more mechanical angles to approach the Creative we have laid out (e. g. through lands), not less.
One thought I had, since
GWU are generally good at enchantments, and aura's in particular, why not give them a mechanic tied to auras?
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:20 pm
by Feyd_Ruin
Krishnath wrote: ↑3 years ago
One thought I had, since
GWU are generally good at enchantments, and aura's in particular, why not give them a mechanic tied to auras?
Whenever you cast an aura spell, ___
Whenever an aura becomes attached to ~, ___
When ~ etb, you may put an aura card total mana cost __ or less from your hand on to the battlefield attached to ~
Auras you control have ___
Enchanted creatures you control have ___
~ has ___ as long as it's enchanted.
I could also see something that deals with auras that don't enchant creatures. A mechanic that deals with enchanting yourself. ___ for each aura enchanting you. Or something that is on the cards with "Enchant You"? That might be better served on another color set though? (UBR?) (it could still gain synergy with aura love and reweave)
Edit:
WUB Prestige: As long as ~ is enchanted ...
UBR "Empowered" : enchant player (yourself) cards with ability "number of auras enchanting you"
Re: The Shattered Realm: Mechanical
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:37 pm
by Krishnath
Feyd_Ruin wrote: ↑3 years ago
Krishnath wrote: ↑3 years ago
One thought I had, since
GWU are generally good at enchantments, and aura's in particular, why not give them a mechanic tied to auras?
Whenever you cast an aura spell, ___
Whenever an aura becomes attached to ~, ___
When ~ etb, you may put an aura card with lesser total mana cost from your hand on to the battlefield attached to ~
I could also see something that deals with auras that don't enchant creatures. A mechanic that deals with enchanting yourself. ___ for each aura enchanting you. Or something that is on the cards with "Enchant You"? That might be better served on another color set though? (UBR?) (it could still gain synergy with aura love and reweave)
While it is something written out is certainly an option, it doesn't really give it mechanical coherence. :/