MTGNexus

Seconded.

I am good with Axing the hatebear strat. I don't like it, personally. I would rather be doing the fun broken things than stopping others from doing them. Especially since we are a graveyard deck, I want to do graveyard things.

But people wanted a different take on Kathril, which is why hatebears were suggested. I don't think we can do Hatebears and Slide and make a good deck.

So if Slide is the objective, we should do that, and play things like Karmic Guide to merge flicker with graveyard synergies.

Yea Reidane regardless, I think it's good enough and doesn't stop what we are doing.
Nay Yahenni's expertise, I want my wraths to kill everything. It hurts me though, I played that card in my Paradox Engine deck in standard.
Nay Duneblast, I want my wraths to cost less than our General if possible.
Questing Beast - I hate the card, but the abilities are so good. So yea.

if we ditch hatebears I will change my Nay on Jarad to a Yea. I still wonder if he will be that good in this deck. Maybe other sac outlets would work better. Jarad can close a game but otherwise is pretty weak.

I think the ultimate problem with the two is Hatebears is a large category, and Slide is a very large category. You can't do both without diluting them and having a 50/50 blend which just...sucks, tbh.

Yea Questing Beast, as keywords are good words.
Yea Reidane, God of the Worthy if we keep the hatebear plan. It's asymmetric and has keywords.
Abstain on Elspeth Resplendent, as my vote depends on how the MV distribution ends up.
Nay Duneblast, if we're distributing indestructible counters then I think that we can play the efficient wraths and make them asymmetric instead for less mana.

On the hatebear topic, while I like the idea of very difficult to remove creatures that keep our opponents playing a version of "fair magic", I'll follow the group regarding whether we keep this subtheme. In hindsight, we probably should have discussed what mechanisms we'd like to hit with the hatebear package, and what routes we'd like to leave open. Realistically, we can keep the subtheme/strategy and tune it to allow the routes we intend to focus on.

I think we all recognize that Hushbringer and Hushwing Gryff are the type of hatebear that we wouldn't want to include, as we baseline intend to use EtB triggers. Building around sacrifice and reanimation effects would push towards only the 1-sided effects like Valentin, Dean of the Vein instead of something like Hushbringer, Kunoros, Hound of Athreos or Yasharn, Implacable Earth. Playing Wrath of God effects push towards Reidane, God of the Worthy instead of Gaddock Teeg. If we intend to use Greater Good type bulk draw effects as a primary draw engine instead of cycling or other cantrips, then Alms Collector is more appealing than Spirit of the Labyrinth. Then there's the options which are extremely symmetric or asymmetric such as Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Collector Ouphe. I think we're not a spellslinger deck, so there's no downside on symmetric Archon of Emeria type of effects.

I guess I'll argue that we don't necessarily remove the subtheme entirely, but instead discuss what gameplans we want to keep and what plans we want to prevent. I personally think that we can safely play any symmetric piece which keeps spells and draw at 1/turn, and disables activated abilities of artifacts. We can play the more corner case or asymmetric options for graveyard, reanimation and dies trigger prevention, or just dedicate normal interaction slots to those strategies.

Although, I'll reiterate that if the group wants to drop that plan, I'll be on board. I know that that I tend to try cramming too many themes/subthemes into decks, often to the detriment or incomplete nature of those theme packages.

I'm gonna be boring and suggest Swords to Plowshares. A nice, safe pick because we have a hundred creatures already.

Yea on the Beast and Swords. Nay on Duneblast and the Expertise. We'll have indestructible or be able to slide out some creatures in response to a wrath, so more mana efficient ones should work.

My nomination for today is Faeburrow Elder. Decent amount of ramp/fixing and vigilance is a handy keyword.

Yay on Duneblast, because things don't always go according to plan, and we won't necessarily be able so slide indestructible whenever we want.
Yay on Swords to Plowshares. Yay to Yahenni's Expertise because I think it'll be more one-sided than we're giving it credit for.

If we really want hatebears, why are we yaying only the ones that directly conflict with our gameplan? Grand Abolisher would be the first thing I'd think of.

Having looked back through the thread, the hatebear idea was there from the start and reanimation sorta slipped in over time. However, I'm not entirely sure why the slide and hatebear packages can't coexist. If we shut off the angles we don't play on and go hard on the ones we can, I think we'll be fine (as @Crazy Monkey also said). That does mean not pushing the reanimation package too much.

Also, just because we have both Yasharn and Greater good in the deck doesn't mean we can't play either of those: there'll be plenty of games where we don't draw both and we can always slide Yasharn out for a turn to sac stuff. If the game needs the hate bear, you play the hatebear, of you want to tempo up, you play greater good.. that makes for interesting choices during gameplay.

So, while I'm open to axing the hatebear package, I'd also like to know what else this deck will be focusing on aside from slide/blink and instead of the hatebear package.

Lastly, a bit in line with the fenceposts comment from Crazy Monkey earlier in the thread: it might be that making hatebear/stax-focused decks is hard in a group process like this, because people like to propose fun/spicy cards and hatebears actively cuts off what fun stuff can be added.

I'm not making my nomination yet as we're re-analyzing our strat, but in the interest of updating tallies before I go to work...

Powshares is the easiest yay in the history of yays. I'm with Karmic Guide and Yahenni's Expertise as well, and I suspect Faeburrow Elder is sneaky good in a non-obvious way.

I think Reidane is interesting because if we're not playing multiples of this effect, it's fairly random and inconsequential, but due to it's totally asymmetric nature it doesn't affect us at all. What side do we anticipate playing most often? The flip side shuts off grapeshot esque wins levied at us completely while the front side while slow for a sphere effect, is inconsistent on whether or not you're playing with more people like me that recognize snow mana is free benefit for no restriction. On the other hand, there really isn't any synergy with the rest of the deck. And that's the crux of the problem we have now. Hatebears are running in direct parallel to our strat, so we need to pick one and go all in. Which btw, reanimator is far stronger anyway, especially as we want to bin things in the first place.

Alicia has a point as well, in that we probably need to look at uhh, things that aren't creatures. We don't want to play some high creature count monstrosity that is slow, clunky, and extra sawft to sweepers, right?

Elspeth, Resplendent yay - 2 nay - 1
Reidane, God of the Worthy yay - 2 nay - 0
Yahenni's Expertise yay - 2 nay - 2
Duneblast yay - 2 nay - 3
Questing Beast yay - 4 nay - 0
Karmic Guide yay - 1 nay - 0
Swords to Plowshares yay - 2 nay - 0
Faeburrow Elder yay - 1 nay - 0

I feel like making a list of bears that don't affect our potential game plan (graveyard shenanigans, sacrificing critters) would be helpful in determining what we want and what we don't. Non-creature going forward is noted.

EDIT - yea Karmic Guide.

I like Reidane because it has two relevant abilities, slows down our opponents, and in a pinch can be used on the flip side. I like that it can come down early too. It can be very annoying so maybe worth cutting if it's the only hatebear.

My issue with hatebears + slide is that hatebears are usually pretty vanilla or have flying only, which means that any critical mass is bad with our general. We also have to forgo some of the better hatebears because of how our general works. And is there any synergy? Like what hatebears are good in commander and good with flickering? Yasharn? Anything else? If someone wants to explain which hatebears work well with slide, then maybe it could convince some of us?
I think a Kathril hatebears deck could be fine, if the deck ran enough tutors to bin a Zetalpa or Akroma consistently and then used Kathril just to buff the army of hatebears. But Slide requires so many more pieces, I don't see how it can be compatible.

A reanimator + slide deck works very well on the other hand. Flickering Karmic Guide, Reveillark, or Sun Titan is a great way to drive synergy between the two strategies. Then you can also picture flickering some of the fatties once we have reanimated them, like Hornet Queen or Titan of Industry.

I'll nominate the hatebear that's most limiting and also best for this deck in my mind. I think that this is the deck for Gaddock Teeg. He blanks nearly all board wipes that get past the ability counters and the top end of many opposing decks. He keeps Farewell and Evacuation from disrupting the board. Add hexproof to Teeg to stop opposing Swords to Plowshares and indestructible to not worry in combat or damage wipes. Basically everything other than Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge doesn't work. And while Teeg can be unpleasant to play against, we're planning on a 10+ power doublestriking commander, right? Let's close the game quickly.

Teeg is sort of the archetypal hatebear that influences deckbuilding choices around MV. I probably should have nominated him earlier because he's a massive guidepost in construction.

Elspeth, Resplendent not sure
Reidane, God of the Worthy yay
Yahenni's Expertise yay
Karmic Guide yay
Swords to Plowshares yay
Faeburrow Elder yay


I don't think hatebears suck. With this high of a creature count Thalia, Guardian of Thraben effects rock. I just think those 2 are nombos with other areas of the deck

Edit : My scryfall powers are weak right now. Isn't there a land with an activated ability to move counters between permanents? I'm not finding it

I was thinking we might want another creature with double strike here. Drizzt Do'Urden, is one we can flicker to reset the cat token and has an excellent damage output for its cost. We have God-Eternal Oketra, that looks very solid with out creature count. There's also Enduring angel. It can be a really interesting flicker target as a life-saving tech. I was worried about the three white pips at first, but it looks like we:d want in the graveyard early and late on the table.

I'd like to nominate one of these but I'd like to hear some opinions.

Oketra is probably the best of that bunch.

The main problem with hatebears is that they have static effects, and thus can't be blinked for value. Also, hatebear decks need quite some creature tutors to ensure they got the right bear at the right time. At the same time, we really need to make sure we have multiple ways to get one of the Astral enchantments. None of the card packages in these two strats really overlap, there's just not enough room.

Found the land.

Id like to nominate Nesting Grounds for today

Yay to Nesting Grounds, Karmic Guide, Gaddock Teeg, and Reidane, God of the Worthy // Valkmira, Protector's Shield.

Nay to Elspeth Resplendent. Sure, it puts counters on stuff, but slowly and for 5 MV. A likely unpopular nay to Faeburrow Elder because relying on dorks isn't something I'm keen on in Commander, especially when they cost three mana.

I'll nominate Ram Through. It should be rather easy for this deck to have a big fat fatty with both deathtouch and trample, so out-of-nowhere KO's can be a thing we do.

Yay to Nesting Grounds, Karmic Guide, Gaddock Teeg, and Reidane, God of the Worthy // Valkmira, Protector's Shield for reasons you guys have already mentioned.

Yay to Ram Through, it can serve as removal if needed or push damage through if combat is blocked by something like Propaganda, though I can see it getting axed because of how reliant it is on having a big creature already.

Nay to Elspeth Resplendent, she isn't really needed for counters and we have better ways of finding one of the slides.

I'll nominate Archon of Valor's Reach. Though he's expensive to cast, he provides good keywords in the graveyard, and he's a strong hate piece that can be reset to block whatever we need. I'd be fine not having him around if his cmc ends up being too high though

Lots of confirmations. Let's stop nominating more creatures given we're already way heavy on those and if we're gonna play mono-creatures then the least we could do is use Umori, the Collector as companion. No one wants that.

Anyway, I'll yay my good buddy Mr Teeg for the confirm, and I think Nesting Grounds has enough upside to justify the colourless land slot to give it a nod into the deck. Yay for Ram Through, this card is reasonable.

Hard nay to archon of valour, six mv cards are not hate cards, they are traps. This one doesn't even have an etb. Serra's Emissary it is not.

For today, let's add Final Parting to the mix.

Elspeth, Resplendent yay - 2 nay - 3
Reidane, God of the Worthy yay - 5 nay - 0
Yahenni's Expertise yay - 3 nay - 2
Karmic Guide|ULG yay - 5 nay - 0
Swords to Plowshares|2ED yay - 3 nay - 0
Gaddock Teeg|UMA yay - 3 nay - 0
Nesting Grounds yay - 3 nay - 0
Faeburrow Elder yay - 2 nay - 1
Ram Through yay - 2 nay - 0
Archon of Valor's Reach yay - 0 nay - 0
Final Parting yay - 0 nay - 0

Yay to Archon of Valor's Reach. It's got the keywords, and it's better in this deck than Akroma, Angel of Wrath, which was voted in pretty easily as I recall. Yay on Final Parting.

Faeburrow Elder yay - 2 nay - 1
Ram Through yay - 2 nay - 0
Archon of Valor's Reach yay - 1 nay - 1
Final Parting yay - 1 nay - 0

Admittedly I like Archon more than Yasharn.

Yea Faeburrow Elder, Ram Through and Nesting Grounds.

Yea Archon of Valor's Reach if we're committing to a hatebear package. Yes it's 6 mana, but the hatebear+keyword theme makes it fit well with me.

A confused Yea on Final Parting, as we just yea'ed in Gaddock Teeg and a lot of the question/concerns about hatebears was that we were getting in our own way.

I don't know how to interpret the last day or so. We had a fair number of people wanting to cut back or remove hatebears to free up card and strategy space in the list (E.g.. sacrifice and reanimator). I nominated Teeg in order to have more specific conversation about what we are planning and where people envision the deck going. There just wasn't really much feedback, so it's hard for me to suggest something. I want to round out the hatebear package if we're going to include it because it does make guidepost for future suggestions, but I don't know if that's actually what we want.

I guess that I'll do it anyway; I nominate Spirit of the Labyrinth. Most of our card advantage so far can be spread over each turn in the cycle, so other than greater good (which can sac the spirit) we don't really get limited by this. I think this is strong and one-sided in game to proactively reduce opponents card engines.

A couple confirmations again,

Faeburrow Elder yay - 3 nay - 1
Ram Through yay - 3 nay - 0
Archon of Valor's Reach yay - 2 nay - 1
Final Parting yay - 2 nay - 0
Spirit of the Labyrinth yay - 0 nay - 0

Crazy Monkey wrote: ↑

1 year ago

I don't know how to interpret the last day or so. We had a fair number of people wanting to cut back or remove hatebears to free up card and strategy space in the list (E.g.. sacrifice and reanimator). I nominated Teeg in order to have more specific conversation about what we are planning and where people envision the deck going. There just wasn't really much feedback, so it's hard for me to suggest something. I want to round out the hatebear package if we're going to include it because it does make guidepost for future suggestions, but I don't know if that's actually what we want.

Feels like the strategy has gotten away from us, again, as everyone has their own ideas of where to take it. Livaan had a linear, combined effort and this, these colours...it's got us all over. And what's it got us? A partial deck of a bunch of random creatures.

I mean, in my opinion, what we have right now really resembles my own deckbuilding methods. I tend to pull out cards for far too many strategies/themes and then cut down to the deck that I play, so this thread feels on-track to me. Maybe we include a 10-15 card overshoot limit, then once everyone can see the whole list we go through a round of cuts?