MTGNexus

It's time for my daily "what about" question.

Reanimate

While I'm not certain it is worth a slot, I don't think it would completely suck. Gary at least is a worthwhile target. I guess the question is, is anything else worth it? It may occasionally be valuable to take a creature from an opponent's graveyard.

People sometimes run Dread Return, and I snagged a copy out of a bulk box for the maybe-board. What are the targets that make it a viable card? I realize it can get two, and that alone is significant. It must be said that the flashback cost is rather steep.

pzbw7z wrote: ↑

2 years ago

It's time for my daily "what about" question.

Reanimate

While I'm not certain it is worth a slot, I don't think it would completely suck. Gary at least is a worthwhile target. I guess the question is, is anything else worth it? It may occasionally be valuable to take a creature from an opponent's graveyard.

People sometimes run Dread Return, and I snagged a copy out of a bulk box for the maybe-board. What are the targets that make it a viable card? I realize it can get two, and that alone is significant. It must be said that the flashback cost is rather steep.

Fair point really. Now that Repository Skaab exists it probably is a bit more viable as an inclusion. I've had Animate Dead for that, and its probably an either or. Animate is slightly more expensive but has no life loss and I can recur it with Hall and Reclamation. Reanimate is cheap and very good and now more useful with recursion options. I feel like 9/10 you're using it on Gary, but most of the stuff in the deck isn't going to kill you to recur anyway, and Varina gains us life so it'd probably do just fine.

Dread Return is more to make a combo come together from what I understand. Ideally you're discarding it the first time, not casting it. And while the flashback cost is steep in having to sacrifice three creatures, thats it - there's no other casting cost past that. So it's essentially a trade 3 for 1 freebie. Myself, I'm not on it, but if you're running a tight combo list and need to make lines efficient itd get you there.

I am using Necromancy and Dread Return right now. Necromancy I like alot because the option to instantspeed reanimate something for an ETB effect. You can also get Necromancy back with Sevinne's Reclamation (I had some really nice Balthor the Defiled + Necromancy + Sevinne's reclamation synergy play, (I was in topdeck mode and all where in my graveyard))

For the same reason as sevinne's reclamation, I like Dread Return. Its castable from the Graveyard but for now its just a test card.

I tried both Animate Dead and Reanimate and they are also very much playable.
For me they are interchangable with Dread Return. They might even be better as they can also reanimate out of opponents graveyards and cost less mana..

I also still run more higher cmc zombies than most do, so target reanimation is alot more viable for my build.

Reanimates go up in value as your cmc goes up generally. I don't have anything worth reanimating.

I have dread return primarily as a way to enable intuition packages and the combos that dump my deck in graveyard. It being free and flashback is what's important.

Reanimate can make some intuition packages stick but not as flexible.

If you're running bug stuff like rot hulk and mikaeus is consider it.

For the most part, I like my recursion on a stick, although that sometimes means back to hand first, but Reanimate intrigued me due to it's lost mana cost.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, fellows.

Today's weird thought, has anyone ever considered Angel's Grace? It's awesome sauce when folks are playing janky Laboratory Maniac/Thassa's Oracle style effects. And sometimes one more turn is all a fellow needs. Angel's anything is a total flavor fail, it must be said.

Sometimes Darkness would be good enough and it's close enough to on-theme. Teferi's Protection is another possibility, I suppose. Neither of these two help against the "I win" conditions, but they will get you that extra turn in many situations, and really, Darkness just seems like fun.

As it is i think my next cuttable slot is Animate Dead. I think mostly I'd rather it be a zombie, and the deck now has plenty of ways to win lower on the curve, so I'm not as dependent on the late game, which makes it somewhat less valuable in general. I still want a copy of Tainted Adversary to try out, and if I really need spot reanimation I've got a Phyrexian Delver kicking about somewhere too.

As far protective spells go I'm not convinced they're necessary myself. Of the three brought up I think Teferi's Protection is the top of the bunch (surprise surprise), but if its outside of budget I'd personally just leave the idea out entirely. I don't think Angel's Grace is going to cut it. The only place I run that is in a lich build with Liesa, Shroud of Dusk that runs Ad Nauseam and a whole lot of other self bleed stuff. Here, I just don't see it doing enough.

I think Reanimate is a great option over Animate Dead (since it can be recurred easier). That said, if lifeloss is a concern, Persist is an option too.

@toctheyounger I'd be curious to see your Liesa decklist if you're willing to share. I run her myself and have really gone all over the board with her. Still trying to settle on a theme, but I'm much closer now than I had been.

Also to ALL, any idea why you'd not run Brainstorm over Ponder? Ponder seems to be in a few decklists including my own and I like it, but I'm now thinking of replacing it with Brainstorm. Or removing Skullclamp for Brainstorm.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Also to ALL, any idea why you'd not run Brainstorm over Ponder? Ponder seems to be in a few decklists including my own and I like it, but I'm now thinking of replacing it with Brainstorm. Or removing Skullclamp for Brainstorm.

Brainstorm is heavily reliant on having something to shuffle away the two cards you push back into your deck. If you can't shuffle your deck Brainstorm's selection is a lot worse than Ponder's. I haven't really done any sort of breakdown on probabilities but I would likely want to be in the realm of 20-25+ shuffle effects in a deck before having confidence that Brainstorm has sufficient shuffle effects that its not a pain to combine them together.

In my mind Ponder takes less setup which in a 100 card singleton format is somewhat desirable. There are decks where Brainstorm will be superior but it depends a lot on how many means of shuffling you have. It is also technically easier to hate on drawing cards than selection of cards so if you see any amount of Notion Thief / Narset, Parter of Veils, or Spirit of the Labyrinth the effect of Brainstorm can suffer a lot more given that you will still need to put cards from your hand back regardless of if you get to draw cards or not.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Also to ALL, any idea why you'd not run Brainstorm over Ponder? Ponder seems to be in a few decklists including my own and I like it, but I'm now thinking of replacing it with Brainstorm. Or removing Skullclamp for Brainstorm.

If you don't have a fetchland, Ponder is much better than brainstorm because it brings its own shuffle. I would usually run it first even with a 10 fetch deck since setting up sequencing to guarantee a shuffling away of bad cards is not trivial. Since we don't run a ton of other shuffle effects (like a green ramp deck with Nature's Lore et al) it can be iffy.

For me anyway, my priority of cantrips is usually
Unless I am really sure I will be able to play Brainstorm as a draw 3, because of repeated shuffle effects. Decks that want to hold up mana are better at using brainstorm because they can usually wait longer to crack their fetchlands to be reactive.

If you're not running fetchlands, Preordain goes > Brainstorm as well.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑

2 years ago

@toctheyounger I'd be curious to see your Liesa decklist if you're willing to share. I run her myself and have really gone all over the board with her. Still trying to settle on a theme, but I'm much closer now than I had been.

Also to ALL, any idea why you'd not run Brainstorm over Ponder? Ponder seems to be in a few decklists including my own and I like it, but I'm now thinking of replacing it with Brainstorm. Or removing Skullclamp for Brainstorm.

I can share a list. Be prepared for a weird mix though. Its kind of based around Lich cards and that sort of weirdness, andits pretty all over the place. Also I don't own a Lich because RL. I don't have a nexus thread but I'll pop it up on Moxfield shortly and fire it through to you.

Thanks to the both of you. That really spells it out clearly. I really need to read all the cards more carefully and mentally play out what the cards actually say. I can see the case where being able to shuffle away the top few cards of your library could be helpful if the top three aren't what you wanted.

ChocoDude wrote: ↑

2 years ago

I can see the case where being able to shuffle away the top few cards of your library could be helpful if the top three aren't what you wanted.

Yeah, being brainstorm or toplocked is literally the worst. Where you put two crappy cards back on top and have to draw through them.

It's a little better with Varina, but at that point you have basically undone what Varina would do -- if you draw 3, put 2 back, then loot 3 with Varina, you saw basically one extra card?

BTW...I'd never heard the term "toplocked" before, but that's a great way to word it. Thanks for that too!

Eburon wrote: ↑

2 years ago

I think Reanimate is a great option over Animate Dead (since it can be recurred easier). That said, if lifeloss is a concern, Persist is an option too.

Great for Gray Merchant of Asphodel, not so much for Shepherd of Rot.

Further on the topic of reanimation, does anyone have experience with Phyrexian Reclamation? It seems to me to be good if one has key, low-CMC creatures. We do have a few of those, I think, Cryptbreaker, Shepherd of Rot come immediately to mind.

I used to run Phyrexian Reclamation and I cut it. My rationale at the time was that this deck wants mass reanimation and getting a single card back to hand wasn't often enough to warrant its inclusion. And I have never regretted cutting it.

I feel the same about most "true" reanimation as well. I am running Dread Return as a test currently, and I do run Apprentice Necromancer thanks to @toctheyounger running it, but I still feel that single reanimation is not where this deck wants to be.

I don't necessarily think Reclamation is bad or wrong, but I do think it plays on an axis that doesn't really need to be played on.

I have to admit I do not get Apprentice Necromancer at all. Use a card, wait a turn and then bring back a creature for a cameo? Perhaps it's good for creatures with tap abilities, such as Shepherd of Rot due to the haste. ETB creatures are also okay, Gray Merchant of Asphodel is a good target for any reanimation.

There's some potential value, I suppose, from having the effect on a Zombie body, ETB or dying triggers and creatures are recurable. . .

Okay, I get it a little, but I'm still not sold.

pzbw7z wrote: ↑

2 years ago

I have to admit I do not get Apprentice Necromancer at all. Use a card, wait a turn and then bring back a creature for a cameo? Perhaps it's good for creatures with tap abilities, such as Shepherd of Rot due to the haste. ETB creatures are also okay, Gray Merchant of Asphodel is a good target for any reanimation.

There's some potential value, I suppose, from having the effect on a Zombie body, ETB or dying triggers and creatures are recurable. . .

Okay, I get it a little, but I'm still not sold.

Really depends on what else is in the deck, but it's a 2 mana zombie with a very relevant ability, and there aren't that many good candidates in that range.

My favorite use has been in loops with Rot Hulk, but it's also been useful to reanimate Sidisi, Gary, a lord for a big attack, Noxious Ghoul to wipe the board (with some help), Havengul Lich to then reanimate some other stuff, or basically ANY zombie while Mikaeus is out. If you've morphed over to the low-curve version of the deck that's chugging along to find a combo, then it's less good, but not a dead card.

pzbw7z wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Further on the topic of reanimation, does anyone have experience with Phyrexian Reclamation? It seems to me to be good if one has key, low-CMC creatures. We do have a few of those, I think, Cryptbreaker, Shepherd of Rot come immediately to mind.

I love the card in other decks. Less so here.

Someone on Facebook mentioned how much they liked From Under the Floorboards in Varina due to its Madness ability. I don't like this particular card, but Madness does make sense.

At least it would if there were good cards in Tribe or on theme. Gisa's Bidding seems better than that floorboard thing, and there are one or two others that don't entirely suck - there's even a Zombie that seems decent if cast for the Madness cost; Grave Scrabbler. All of those Weathered Wayfarers out there, or various Gisas and/or Geralfs might appreciate a second chance.

Has anyone had any experience with any Madness cards at all?

pzbw7z wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Someone on Facebook mentioned how much they liked From Under the Floorboards in Varina due to its Madness ability. I don't like this particular card, but Madness does make sense.

At least it would if there were good cards in Tribe or on theme. Gisa's Bidding seems better than that floorboard thing, and there are one or two others that don't entirely suck - there's even a Zombie that seems decent if cast for the Madness cost; Grave Scrabbler. All of those Weathered Wayfarers out there, or various Gisas and/or Geralfs might appreciate a second chance.

Has anyone had any experience with any Madness cards at all?

I had been planning to try out some cards with Madness and Flashback in the list to get some more mileage out of Varina's looting ability, but then we got a ton of new zombies and I didn't have space for any of those cards I wanted to try. I do agree that Bidding is better than Floorboards as a value piece, though Floorboards scales better with later turns, and can be part of a wincon with aristocrats pieces and big mana on the board.

I find that most Madness cards are a bit underwhelming to include in a deck that does not focus on Madness as a theme. There are some exceptions such as Call to the Netherworld, but I don't think it has a big enough impact to warrant a slot in an already tight list.

While I don't run a Varina deck, I use a lot of concepts used in Varina (like drain & mass reanimation) in my Alesha, Who Smiles at Death deck and I was wondering if a piece of tech I use in that deck would work here. How would you guys feel about including Reconnaissance? In Alesha I find it's a good way to work through board stalls and here I feel it can protect key zombies that you otherwise wouldn't want to attack with, but I was wondering if that was a problem you guys were encountering.

(Edited to clarify points)

pzbw7z wrote: ↑

2 years ago

Someone on Facebook mentioned how much they liked From Under the Floorboards in Varina due to its Madness ability. I don't like this particular card, but Madness does make sense.

At least it would if there were good cards in Tribe or on theme. Gisa's Bidding seems better than that floorboard thing, and there are one or two others that don't entirely suck - there's even a Zombie that seems decent if cast for the Madness cost; Grave Scrabbler. All of those Weathered Wayfarers out there, or various Gisas and/or Geralfs might appreciate a second chance.

Has anyone had any experience with any Madness cards at all?

I think Grave Scrabbler is the only madness creature effect I would include - incredible value for 2 mana and easy to accomplish with no extra work in this deck. I have been meaning to try it out but haven't played in over a month...

Call to the netherworld was in one of my early lists, and I still feel like it belongs in the deck - it's just free card advantage. I feel that way about 115 cards and can only put 100 in my deck lol...

If I could push myself to make a few more difficult cuts I would add both of these cards to my deck. I just have a hard time making those cuts right now.