MTGNexus

Honestly, Kuldotha Rebirth is a card I should revisit. I've added enough treasure that a effectively a 2 mana Hordeling Outburst is worth considering.

I think that Fury Storm is overcosted for cEDH. If it was Heat Shimmer instead of Fork, then it would probably be worth the 4 mana.

If i'm understanding the mechanic correctly, Fury Storm goes infinite on any instant or sorc so long as we've cast Zada once as we just retarget the original with the X copies. Even someone else's stuff on the stack. Could potentially turn someone's end step attempt to Snap off a stax piece into an asymmetric board wipe.

I don't think that does much more than infinite magecraft, because it only triggers to make copies on cast. Those copies aren't cast, and won't trigger the first section of text to make copies for each cast of the commander. It ends up being the same as Fork targeting Reiterate because copies are not cast in most cases.

It doesn't seem good unless you already have Storm-Kiln Artist out, which represents at least a 12 mana investment for infinite treasure if you include Zada. I don't think that's efficient enough for the type of games you're building to reach.

Well when you put it that way 😂.... It does sound wildly suboptimal 😁

Quick question -- have you had a lot of reps with Audacious Swap by chance? I remember you were slotting it in for testing recently. We're debating it for both the storm and polymorph lists and figured I'd see if you had any initial learnings/thoughts.

Honestly, outside goldfishing I have not been able to cast it. It takes a specific type of game in my group for my to pull out Zada, and I have not seen it in those games.

In goldfishing, it feels rather good as long as your creature-generation density keeps it from being a self-wipe. There is a chance for a self-blowout where you go from 10 creatures and 3 cards in hand to 3 creatures and 40 cards in hand and now you have to rebuild.

The other play pattern that I have not actually seen is that Audacious Swap is much, much more vulnerable to removal on Zada. Once all the copies are on the stack, Zada might get removed. This means that turning a goblin token into Expedite is much worse. The other thing to keep in mind (especially for the polymorph build) is that it casts those spells. This makes Rule of Law and counterspells relevant interaction points.

Overall, I think it has a maximum ceiling that's higher than Reality Scramble, and a much lower floor. It would be too high variance and 'interact-able' for my local cEDH metagame, but that doesn't mean it can't work.

I appreciate the feedback -- we're tossing around multiple avenues of flipping the board on the polystax list and it came up in discussion. Figured I'd go straight to the tester

Has anyone tried out Defiler of Instinct from the latest set? looks similar to Treasonous Ogre however slightly more restrictive, costs less health and also pings something for damage whenever you use it.

I did some brainstorming for Defiler of Instinct, but because most Zada decks are more instant/sorcery centric I think the limitations to permanents limit it's use. Unless the deck includes Cloudstone Curio, I don't think that mana cost and red mana as life allows it to perform as well as Treasonous Ogre.

That's a reminder that I didn't write up a set review for Dominaria. I'll try to get that finished this weekend.

100% agree on Defiler.....was so excited when I pulled one thinking it was TOgre, Jr and then i read the permanent part and realized it was only 1 pip per spell....

CM -- any testing expereince/thoughts on Indulge // Excess? Too risky b/c we're not necessarily looking to get to combat?

Indulge // Excess is a card that I have been meaning to pick up for testing, but don't own yet. On paper It's Heat Shimmer + Battle Hymn that happens through the combat step, and those cards are good.

The only real limitation is that it is extremely telegraphed, and you need a player not to have blockers. The second one of these is less important in what I expect from the average cEDH game, as board states for most decks aren't dropping creatures for combat. I think for your case that it will probably overperform compared to a Zada deck intended for games outside of cEDH, specifically becuase of how the battlefield gets neglected, and that both halves entirely skip Zada. Depending on the deck, your play pattern may actually intend to curve this into Zada post combat in order to avoid more common interaction points and timing.

Crazy Monkey wrote: ↑

1 year ago

I did some brainstorming for Defiler of Instinct, but because most Zada decks are more instant/sorcery centric I think the limitations to permanents limit it's use. Unless the deck includes Cloudstone Curio, I don't think that mana cost and red mana as life allows it to perform as well as Treasonous Ogre.

Whipsaw wrote: ↑

1 year ago

100% agree on Defiler.....was so excited when I pulled one thinking it was TOgre, Jr and then i read the permanent part and realized it was only 1 pip per spell....

I will admit that I may have misread the fact it only applied to permanents not all spells, a lot less interested now.

Not the first Zada pilot to get excited over this one....all of us in the CEDHU discord were ecstatic then we read it carefully....

CM -- wanted to give you an update on the collab storm list. This is where we've shaken out currently...would appreciate any feedback/commentary.

I feel like it's a little bit on the fragile side in terms of protection (i really want something like Veilstone Amulet in there so that we have some protection intra-turn) but it has been goldfishing well enough. If folks know the angle of attack I doubt it will work as well as we think but into a blind meta I feel like it could be a situation where it gets underestimated and then poof we're 60+ cards deep in the library with 35 floating red.

I'm not entirely happy with the wincon section...if we manage to go infinite it's fine enough going the Grapeshot or Reckless Fireweaver route but I really don't like to be super dependent on dualcastering into victory in combat. The hive mind seems against Impact Tremors and we chose (for now) to throw in fireweaver given how many treasures we can spew out intra-storm. Would definitely appreciate any views on alternatives we should consider.

I made the hard pitch for Fiery Gambit but the group remains highly skeptical

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HJCBGuLazEqzv3kJM9I12A

Really appreciate your assistance on this!

Why are Make Mischief and Spawning Breath listed under "Double Your Creatures" in the OP deck list?

They get copied when you target only Zada and thus double your creature count so long as your creatures have at least 2 toughness at the time of cast.

Zada gets the most value out of the simple number of creatures to copy spells to. It almost doesn't matter whether to tokens made are devil's or Young Pyromancer copies, it's still at least twice as many cards or mana.

@Whipsaw I finally got time to check that list. The thing that stood out to me the most were a couple of choice includes.

Reckless Fireweaver over Guttersnipe or Impact Tremors seems a bit too deep/situational. There aren't that many ways to make treasures and fireweaver does nothing without them Zada virtually always wants to make more creatures and cast more spells into Zada.

I think that Conspicuous Snoop would be a better backup inclusion for alternative methods to win through Torpor Orb than fireweaver. It's the same mana, but can also be card advantage.

I am curious about Kick in the Door, as I had only viewed that as a meme. It's nearly another cantrip in dungeon of the mad mage, is this the intention to dungeon run? Is it just a cantrip or is there an idea to run tomb of annihilation as a wincon with enough creature count?

I was also somewhat surprised that Boiling Blood made the cut as it MV reduction squeeze makes it harder to justify. If you're planning on digging into Dualcaster Mage wins, then the 1 to 2 MV scrytrips like Titan's Strength are very similar. Weaving cantrips and scrytrips gives nearly the same card selection while also lowering curve.

I think the interest in Veilstone Amulet is warranted, but the more potent option is probably Cloudstone Curio. With options such as Priest of Urabrask and dockside, those are easy infinites. Zada usually gets a cantrip cast, so the plan to draw into a combo line that isn't commander centric makes veilstone less important.

I still think that Ardent Elementalist is a strong combo line via Twinflame effects, and works well as a Past in Flames stand-in if needed. I think that would be a good multi-year include.

Crazy Monkey wrote: ↑

1 year ago

I am curious about Kick in the Door, as I had only viewed that as a meme.

I've included it the moment it released. +1/+1 plus haste is a very solid baseline, which enables a few things itself, but once you amass creatures it gets ridiculous.
A few bodies and Dungeon of the Mad Mage is usually gg. Hitting "Runestone Caverns" after "Goblin Bazaar" can see you go off of an empty hand. Let alone "ulting" the Dungeon.

Aside from its absurd ceiling, its big downside is, that it is absolutely tedious to resolve.

Nonetheless, i would always recommend to run it, as it is an absolutely unique synergy that can make for some memorable turns.

Kick in the Door is a card I do like, you want about 7 copies to go right through it at a minimum, but with Zada it's not hard to get 70 copies, as Toshi said it does take a while to resolve :D It's been in my list since the start and I wouldn't consider cutting it yet. You can just keep running through Dungeon of the Mad Mage, which does a little bit of everything, life gain, scry, treasure, card draw etc. it's quite nice.

I guess I brushed off a good card as less effective than it really is because I wasn't paying attention to the dungeons enough. I will add it to my testing list, probably over a scrytrip or something similar. The more I actually use dungeons/initiative in other decks, the more I realized that it can be a strong mechanic. Thanks for the feedback on that one.

60 door kicks on a dungeon does seem like it with take longer to resolve, but *more* is the name of the game in my playstyle of Zada.

Another piece of tech i've been bouncing around in my head is Brallin, Skyshark Rider as an alternative non-combat way to win if we storm off, draw 30+ cards and somehow can't manage to find a wincon.

After checking with the judges, as long as he survives into the end step, every card will ping the table for 1 dmg per card discarded down to hand size even if he is removed after the first trigger.

I'm not convinced on Brallin, Skyshark Rider without discard outlets. Yes, if you enter the cleanup step with 47 cards in hand, then there isn't a priority step to remove him before the triggers try to go onto the stack and the turn rewinds to the end step to get priority for those triggers to actually enter the stack. Just like the untap step, players don't get priority during cleanup. It's like how multiple Seedborn Muses don't stack for floating mana.

However there are two problems. First, what you're doing is extremely telegraphed, so removal during main phase or end step prior to cleanup stops the whole thing. You're relying on opponents not seeing it coming. Second, the idea that 40 cards in your hand can't finish the game implies Angel's Grace or similar, which continues through the turn, even at this step.

I just don't see a case where Brallin ends the game more often than something like Guttersnipe or even Firestorm.

Agreed that Firestorm seems like a better/simpler way to do it. I just fear the one-card wincon in mono red since we just dont have a great way to stop more than one *maybe* two counterspells in response. I actually think Firestorm potentially works better as a cheap board wipe given how many cards we can grab quickly and we can just dump excess lands as we're going off.

I'm torn b/w Impact Tremors and Purphoros, God of the Forge in terms of body count. Tremors is obviously a lot easier to cast but Purphdaddy gets it done 2x faster. I feel like another 4 drop in this deck is kind of hard sell (even though it is admittedly a good one).

I'm leaning towards your tech with Spikeshot Elder which can double as dork/creature stax hate and a finisher if we get rolling hard intra turn.

I'm probably overthinking it, but I'm super skeptical around the Reiterate + Jeska's Will infinite combo given its 9 to make it happen AND it has to depend on someone having 7+ cards at the time we want to execute it. Obviously works great but feels super duper situational and again a high degree of counterspell stack war risk.

Whirling Strike from Brother's War will come with a neat combination of keywords for offensive and defensive uses.
Overall Stolen Vitality has already been solid for me and this will be even better.

Just a quick heads up — the Unfinity "______ Goblin" is a good one to include here. Played it in my deck at the PWP Mox Masters tournament a couple of weeks ago and it was a good experience. Averages out to Seething Song on a stick plus it gives us an extra Goblin body for radiating or Brightstone. Highly recommend!