MTGNexus

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

materpillar wrote: ↑

5 months ago

I'd say Generous Gift is almost strictly better.

On top of which card is a victim of its own success. It's iconic enough that they've made similar but power crept cards. Legions to Ashes, Anguished Unmaking and Stroke of Midnight are strictly better outside of not-hitting lands. So unless you're meta is infested with Gaea's Cradles it hasn't withstood the test of time.

I don't think it's fair to compare Vindicate to all these other cards because they don't do the same thing. They're not strictly better. Generous Gift is pretty close because instant speed does matter, but a 3/3 is not-insignificant (see also the number of times you get beat down by a Gilded Drake after stealing a threat). Trading a card for a card and still giving them a sword carrier is a bad look; gift isn't a straight one for one trade. Stroke of Midnight is lighter on the drawback but can't hit lands. Though, a 1/1 is insignificant in all cases except when they have a Skullclamp. Vindicate has not been truly, clearly, unequivocally power crept to-date, and there is a reason for that.

I cannot recall the last time the 3/3 from Gift or Beast Within became relevant. It's not been never, but it's rare. Certainly more rare than the number of times I've used either of those, or Vindicate, to hit a land. I'll say that I like the artwork on Vindicate, and recall spending quite a bit for my first copies of the card, but it's been a few years since I last ran it in any deck. I'm not as averse to sorcery speed answers as some posters here (though I agree I'd almost always favor instant speed), but Orzhov has so many options for removal.

Monday, December 4th, 2023; Trepanation Blade

yeti1069 wrote: ↑

5 months ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

materpillar wrote: ↑

5 months ago

I'd say Generous Gift is almost strictly better.

On top of which card is a victim of its own success. It's iconic enough that they've made similar but power crept cards. Legions to Ashes, Anguished Unmaking and Stroke of Midnight are strictly better outside of not-hitting lands. So unless you're meta is infested with Gaea's Cradles it hasn't withstood the test of time.

I don't think it's fair to compare Vindicate to all these other cards because they don't do the same thing. They're not strictly better. Generous Gift is pretty close because instant speed does matter, but a 3/3 is not-insignificant (see also the number of times you get beat down by a Gilded Drake after stealing a threat). Trading a card for a card and still giving them a sword carrier is a bad look; gift isn't a straight one for one trade. Stroke of Midnight is lighter on the drawback but can't hit lands. Though, a 1/1 is insignificant in all cases except when they have a Skullclamp. Vindicate has not been truly, clearly, unequivocally power crept to-date, and there is a reason for that.

I cannot recall the last time the 3/3 from Gift or Beast Within became relevant. It's not been never, but it's rare. Certainly more rare than the number of times I've used either of those, or Vindicate, to hit a land. I'll say that I like the artwork on Vindicate, and recall spending quite a bit for my first copies of the card, but it's been a few years since I last ran it in any deck. I'm not as averse to sorcery speed answers as some posters here (though I agree I'd almost always favor instant speed), but Orzhov has so many options for removal.

Must be a case of meta differentiations. I play in a very enhanced environment where people will care deeply about mana curves and using what's available to them to execute their gameplans. I suppose if you play where every play is a haymaker, then the act of spawning a 3/3 doesn't matter as much when people trample you with large dinos. Here, we don't even use Forbidden Orchard because the act of giving someone a body to turn on a Jitte is a massive swing and the mana fixing isn't even worth shifting the game to such a degree. I suppose that's my bad for assuming all metas played to this degree of efficiency.

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

Monday, December 4th, 2023; Trepanation Blade

This card feels like it's split between two objectives. Either you want damage and there are better options or you want mill and this sucks at that too. I'm not sure what kind of deck wants to straddle those lines hard enough to find this card useful.

TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑

5 months ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

Monday, December 4th, 2023; Trepanation Blade

This card feels like it's split between two objectives. Either you want damage and there are better options or you want mill and this sucks at that too. I'm not sure what kind of deck wants to straddle those lines hard enough to find this card useful.

Captain N'ghathrod is the perfect home for this, but it just doesn't deliver for the cost, in my opinion.

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

yeti1069 wrote: ↑

5 months ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

I don't think it's fair to compare Vindicate to all these other cards because they don't do the same thing. They're not strictly better. Generous Gift is pretty close because instant speed does matter, but a 3/3 is not-insignificant (see also the number of times you get beat down by a Gilded Drake after stealing a threat). Trading a card for a card and still giving them a sword carrier is a bad look; gift isn't a straight one for one trade. Stroke of Midnight is lighter on the drawback but can't hit lands. Though, a 1/1 is insignificant in all cases except when they have a Skullclamp. Vindicate has not been truly, clearly, unequivocally power crept to-date, and there is a reason for that.

I cannot recall the last time the 3/3 from Gift or Beast Within became relevant. It's not been never, but it's rare. Certainly more rare than the number of times I've used either of those, or Vindicate, to hit a land. I'll say that I like the artwork on Vindicate, and recall spending quite a bit for my first copies of the card, but it's been a few years since I last ran it in any deck. I'm not as averse to sorcery speed answers as some posters here (though I agree I'd almost always favor instant speed), but Orzhov has so many options for removal.

Must be a case of meta differentiations. I play in a very enhanced environment where people will care deeply about mana curves and using what's available to them to execute their gameplans. I suppose if you play where every play is a haymaker, then the act of spawning a 3/3 doesn't matter as much when people trample you with large dinos. Here, we don't even use Forbidden Orchard because the act of giving someone a body to turn on a Jitte is a massive swing and the mana fixing isn't even worth shifting the game to such a degree. I suppose that's my bad for assuming all metas played to this degree of efficiency.

I don't see so much equipment that it would be a factor in my decision-making process on card inclusions or not. More often than not, the 3/3 ends up as a chump blocker, in my experience.

Gilded Drake at least has evasion--have definitely beaten down someone with their Drake, but that was in cEDH, where life is already being heavily used as a resource, creature counts and creature removal are low.

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

I don't think it's fair to compare Vindicate to all these other cards because they don't do the same thing. They're not strictly better. Generous Gift is pretty close because instant speed does matter, but a 3/3 is not-insignificant (see also the number of times you get beat down by a Gilded Drake after stealing a threat). Trading a card for a card and still giving them a sword carrier is a bad look; gift isn't a straight one for one trade. Stroke of Midnight is lighter on the drawback but can't hit lands. Though, a 1/1 is insignificant in all cases except when they have a Skullclamp. Vindicate has not been truly, clearly, unequivocally power crept to-date, and there is a reason for that.

I don't agree with this basically at all.

In my experience a 3/3 is effectively insignificant. If you give them an elephant and then die to a Sword of X and Y then your game plan was already completely FUBAR and it wasn't the 3/3 that lost you the game. Gilded Drake has flying. A flying 3/3 versus a vanilla 3/3 is night and day for relevance.

[edit]: I suppose if you're in stax meta the 3/3 might be a bit more noticeable. Which I suppose is a meta that you tend to create.

Sorcery speed vs instant speed massive in relevancy. Having to blow removal preemptively as opposed to reactively effectively equates to card disadvantage way more than any token creature you're giving them. If you're at 3 life with an empty board. Someone else has any creature. You can threaten removal and swing their creature towards someone else, potentially resulting in that person having to burn answers. That basically draws you a card.

Vindicate being sorcery speed is also incapable of interacting with 2-card infinite combos or just cast cards that are threatening immediate lethal.

Vindicate not exiling is a massive downgrade with the amount of recursion and indestructible that exists in the format.

Unless you're needing it specifically for the ability to destroy problematic non-basics, vindicate is noticeably worse than any of the other options.


As for today's equipment. I strongly recommend against milling your opponents ever unless you have very very good reasons to do so.

TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑

5 months ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

Monday, December 4th, 2023; Trepanation Blade

This card feels like it's split between two objectives. Either you want damage and there are better options or you want mill and this sucks at that too. I'm not sure what kind of deck wants to straddle those lines hard enough to find this card useful.

I last used it back in my day with Wrexial, the Risen Deep where I'd also jam Memory Plunder and Ashen Powder and similar to play out of your graveyard as much as my own. It's no Sword of Body and Mind (which was also a roleplayer there), but it'll do. I might add this and SoBaM to The Good Admiral now really, seems to tick some thematical boxes I suppose.

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑

5 months ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

Monday, December 4th, 2023; Trepanation Blade

This card feels like it's split between two objectives. Either you want damage and there are better options or you want mill and this sucks at that too. I'm not sure what kind of deck wants to straddle those lines hard enough to find this card useful.

I last used it back in my day with Wrexial, the Risen Deep where I'd also jam Memory Plunder and Ashen Powder and similar to play out of your graveyard as much as my own. It's no Sword of Body and Mind (which was also a roleplayer there), but it'll do. I might add this and SoBaM to The Good Admiral now really, seems to tick some thematical boxes I suppose.

There's the comparison that I should have made! SoBaM is the same mana cost for a guaranteed +2/+2, two forms of protection, which may themselves equate to evasion, and while the mill is on damage instead of on attack, you're almost never getting enough mill off Trepanation for a bigger damage boost to be relevant, and it's almost never going to mill even half as many cards. That the Sword also provides a blocker body is just gravy. That, too, has been on the list for the Captian, but I haven't pulled the trigger on buying it.

How is the Sword helping The Admiral? Her ability only cares about your own yard.

I still play Vindicate|26480 for the nostalgia. I didn't play in apocalypse, but I did use Vindicate heavily in extended, early modern, and early commander, so it sticks around as a fond reminder without being to inefficient compared to many other powercrept cards from years past. Also I paid around $40 or more for the 2007 judge foil so I'm going to use it somewhere just for that.

Trepanation Blade maybe useful in some mill deck with a commander with evasion. Not sure it's worth the equip cost. Mill and commander damage don't really mix, but sometimes it is good to have a back up plan.

I just remember slapping this on Mindshrieker.

So much nostalgia for the cards I played when I first started in mtg.

OG vindicate is best artwork.

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

Must be a case of meta differentiations. I play in a very enhanced environment where people will care deeply about mana curves and using what's available to them to execute their gameplans. I suppose if you play where every play is a haymaker, then the act of spawning a 3/3 doesn't matter as much when people trample you with large dinos. Here, we don't even use Forbidden Orchard because the act of giving someone a body to turn on a Jitte is a massive swing and the mana fixing isn't even worth shifting the game to such a degree. I suppose that's my bad for assuming all metas played to this degree of efficiency.

Your meta, based on what I've gleaned from it in the past, is %$#% bizarre and shouldn't be used as a test case for anything. In all my years of playing EDH I can't recall a single game that has been decisively ended because of an ape, frog lizard, beast, or elephant. I'm not saying there's no drawback whatsoever, and certainly a body is less negligible than life, but there's a reason those are some of the most played removal cards in the format. Here's the thing: if Jitte is the problem. remove the goddamned Jitte with the removal spell.

Anyway, Vindicate is awesome and you'll pry it from my cold, dead hands.

yeti1069 wrote: ↑

5 months ago

How is the Sword helping The Admiral? Her ability only cares about your own yard.

Pirates seem to have some ancillary mill support, and there's at least the horror pirate guy. Thematically there's something to be said about ransacking a ship (looting) for a specific treasure.

TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑

5 months ago

Your meta, based on what I've gleaned from it in the past, is %$#% bizarre and shouldn't be used as a test case for anything. In all my years of playing EDH I can't recall a single game that has been decisively ended because of an ape, frog lizard, beast, or elephant. I'm not saying there's no drawback whatsoever, and certainly a body is less negligible than life, but there's a reason those are some of the most played removal cards in the format. Here's the thing: if Jitte is the problem. remove the goddamned Jitte with the removal spell.

Sure, with a pongify the difference is a one mv spell is still quite under rate. Even with the body replacement. Spending three and even leaving a problem around anyway though...

It's not like I'm saying generous gift is bad. Because it clearly is not. I'm making the case that it's not so open and shut over vindicate.

Trep Blade mills first, which is nice, compared to the Sword.

Tuesday, December 5th, 2023; Mirage Mirror



Who says you have to be in u to be able to use clones?

This card is wild. The text is misleadingly simple, many shenanigans are to be had with a permanent that can turn into just about anything on the field at instant speed.

"No! Mono red is weak in commander!"
"Haha 2 Fiery Emancipations go boom"

The card's a blast. It's not exactly consistent enough for me to just throw into any deck but if I have spaces left for something funny it's a pretty good pick.

3drinks wrote: ↑

5 months ago

Tuesday, December 5th, 2023; Mirage Mirror

Who says you have to be in u to be able to use clones?

Such a strong, fun card. It's not for every deck, but is especially good in more reactive/passive decks that are able to leave mana open to make full use of this. I run it in Queen Marchesa.

This card is the case for Vindicate. =P

Every time I throw it in a deck, it ends up being fun. That's all I want out of this game anymore.

I finally got a copy of Mirage Mirror for one of my decks (Thada)... but I haven't drawn it yet, so the jury is still out. D: That said, I've certainly heard good things about it. It's one of the most flexible cards in the format, so it will usually do something useful.

Wednesday, December 6th, 2023; Popular Entertainer

Serenade wrote: ↑

5 months ago

This card is the case for Vindicate. =P

Every time I throw it in a deck, it ends up being fun. That's all I want out of this game anymore.

I know you're semi joking, but this card is the argument for instant speed removal.

Ironically, one of the least popular backgrounds.

For a rare it's awkwardly low impact imo. Friggin Baeloth Barrityl, Entertainer over there goading the whole board, why would anyone play this?

WOTC has no idea exactly how powerful goad is. Alela, Cunning Conqueror and Popular Entertainer act like it's better than drawing cards.

Meanwhile Baeloth Barrityl, Entertainer and Marisi, Breaker of the Coil trivially goad the entire board.

Edit: my wording makes it sound like i think goading is secretly busted, I just meant WOTC doesn't seem to have a consistent rate for goading.