MTGNexus

Is a great card for go wide stratergies.

My favourite thing I've ever heard with Eldrazi Monument is to use it with Tombstone Stairwell.

You laughed at my prism tokens. I laugh at your screams of-actually on second thought you can kinda keep laughing honestly.

I've consistently found this card to be better in theory than in practice - you have to go really, really, really wide or have a really strong recursion engine to make it work. The average deck, even a tribal deck or token deck, has seemed to lack the oomph for this to feel like it was worthwhile. It has finally found a home in Lurrus of the Dream-Den artifacts because of the recursion Lurrus provides, but I've just found that a deck with 35ish creatures + token makers doesn't have nearly enough support to feed this machine. I don't think I'd run this unless I had a cheap way to recur bodies or make tokens in the command zone as the risk is just too high otherwise.

@Hawk are we talking about the same card? Eldrazi monument probably isn't fast enough for cEDH, but losing 1 token per turn cycle is a pretty low bar to make your entire team immune to (most) wipes, impervious in combat, evasive, and larger all at the same time. If your go-wide deck can't support sacrificing one creature per turn cycle - when you typically won't lose any additional creatures since they're indestructible - I posit that you aren't actually playing a go-wide deck.

The only real negative I have about it, besides not doing a cEDH-tier thing, is that it's quite weak to artifact removal at the wrong moment.

I have no strong feelings about Eldrazi Monument, positive or negative. +1/+1, flying, and indestructible are nice... but five mana and a hefty upkeep cost makes it less exciting. Do you actually need the persistent buff, or is it better to run Akroma's Will / Overrun / Savage Beating / some other one-shot effect? Or alternatively, you could run a bigger anthem like Cathars' Crusade / Beastmaster Ascension / Shared Animosity. I suppose it has applications in blue / black decks that don't have many mass pump effects, but otherwise I'm a bit low on it.

Slow enough that it's often not the best choice. I feel like it's one of those cards we're gonna look back on in 3 years and go 'yeah, it's had its day in the sun'. We might almost be there now. For the cost, you can just drive through much more damage in other ways, and quicker.

Surprised people are so down on it. Tbf I may have rose-tinted glasses from its application in my Minthara, Merciless Soul deck - which doesn't consider the sacrifice a downside, and which already has a major power bump from the commander so durability and evasion are both top priorities.

It's not nearly as explosive as some other anthems like Cathars' Crusade, Coat of Arms, Craterhoof Behemoth, Akroma's Will, Shared Animosity, etc, but I think a lot of go-wide decks that aren't planning to tutor for the same top-tier wincon every game will end up going deep enough to run, or at least seriously consider, eldrazi monument. It's not as much of a "play this card, everyone dies" wincon as much as a "play this card, kill one guy, leave myself difficult to stop against the others". You buff power by a bit and grant solid evasion to kill someone, and the indestructible means you don't lose attackers and can have a strong defensive position.

I agree that there are more immediately-powerful anthems when you want to win the game ASAP, but I really don't get the concern about the upkeep cost. Typically when you play this, it's to end the game within the next two turns or so, meaning you'll only sacrifice one creature, maybe two. That cost should share a border with nil for a go-wide deck in the endgame.

Wednesday, June 28th, 2023; The Archetype Cycle!

I like the green archtype personally. But isn't that good since is too expensive for a protection that won't save you from a board wipe. Betetr use the spot for an actuall threat instead.

I've seen Archetype of Endurance and Archetype of Imagination played.

Archetype of Endurance is an alright topend creature. I've seen it played alongside Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other 'you can't kill my stuff' cards to lock out opponents, but I think it has gotten worse over time as more exile-based board wipes have been printed (like Farewell). I think green has better options these days.

Archetype of Imagination is nice as a budget Sun Quan, Lord of Wu - it effectively makes it so that your creatures can only be blocked by creatures with reach, which are generally somewhat rare. It's a solid way to break a board stall, although it goes down a bit in value if you already have a lot of naturally evasive creatures.

Beyond those two... I don't think I have seen the other three played anywhere. Maybe if you really care about those keywords (i.e. Stonebrow, Krosan Hero), but it's usually easier to just run creatures that have those keywords in the first place. They are enchantment creatures, which can be relevant for some decks (Zur, Eternal Schemer), but the extra card type tends to be a downside if you don't have synergies due to opening them up to more removal.

Going in order of EDHREC played data:

Archetype of Imagination (32,837) is the strongest and for good reason - played with any sorta board, it should end the game or at least remove your primary opponent on the spot if it isn't answered. It's got a great typeline (Human Wizard Enchantment) for a variety of tribal decks. That and its budget friendliness are likely why this is so played compared to some comparable effects like Deepchannel Mentor and Sun Quan, Lord of Wu. As a six mana card that dies to everything and doesn't boost power this clearly isn't nearly as lethal as Craterhoof Behemoth but the card is good.

Archetype of Endurance (20,710) feels a bit overrated in comparison imo. Protecting your board from point removal is a lot less valuable than ending the game and this is eight freaking mana. Given the existence of Asceticism I don't understand other than budget why this is so played. I guess folks just can't resist a Craw Wurm that turns off ALL those rude Doom Blades? Admittedly turning off opposing Hexproof is hot, but Arcane Lighthouse and Shadowspear exist.

Archetype of Aggression (18,074) feels like it's really buoyed by having one of the best bodies of this cycle and a great typeline (Human Warrior). Adding trample can matter if you have a bunch of +X/+0 pumps. Turning off trample is rarely relevant. Overall I'm neutral on this card.

Archetype of Courage (14,503) feels a bit underrated to me actually. This doesn't feel strong at first read, but it makes attacking in to the player with the archetype a nightmare as they gun down all comers with good double and triple blocks. Good typeline in the colors that want to run Soldier and Human tribal (and enchantress for that matter). Card has seemed solid in Heliod, Sun-Crowned.

Archetype of Finality (9,685) is appropriately the least played. The effect can be strong in a swarmy deck, but compared to Imagination at the same MV this makes blocking ugly while Imagination makes blocking impossible. And on defense it can be strong too, but it's double the cost of Courage for modest gains. Being in a color that's the best at just killing stuff without investing so much mana into it first and needing a board to just still trade 1-for-1 doesn't help. Strong in combo with Courage though, and maybe Anikthea, Hand of Erebos will be a powerful new home.

I'm always skeptical of cards like Archetype of Imagination. Well-timed removal can own you, and it's got multiple types to target. That anyone would play it over, say, Eldrazi Monument seems absurd to me.

That's a weakness of the cycle as a whole, though Archetype of Endurance is the strongest against it since you can't generally target it. Obviously the price tag is high enough that it only fits into specific decks, but it's pretty unique at what it does. I don't think the comparison to Asceticism is apt because it grants hexproof to itself. So if you're trying to create an unkillable board state (admittedly a fairly stupid though amusing goal), archetype is fairly unique in that regard. Also, being a creature itself, you can focus on making your creatures invincible rather than needing to protect other permanent types.

Archetype of Aggression is a way to grant trample globally. There are cheaper ways to do it in green, but if you're desperate and in red I guess it's okay. Single-target trample can be much cheaper and more durable though. At least losing trample mid-combat probably doesn't completely ruin you the way flying might.

Archetype of Courage has the typical issue, but it is quite cheap compared to imagination. First strike isn't as exciting of a keyword, though, so it's pretty niche.

Archetype of Finality I think is actually somewhat interesting, but in a really niche spot - if you have a bunch of pingers for some reason (and in black too). It's way too expensive for only having 1 or 2, and not compelling enough for just making your dudes better at combat. Though admittedly a token swarm of deathtouchers is pretty unappealing to attack into. But it's expensive and easy to remove, which can sometimes be acceptable for a big alpha strike when your opponents are tapped out, less so for a defensive wall you want to build to last.

Overall I don't think any of them are very good, but they fit into some niche roles.

Thursday, June 29th, 2023; Cloudstone Curio



No, that's not a combo card,of course not.............

3drinks wrote: ↑

11 months ago

Nothing fun ever included this card

Toshi wrote: ↑

11 months ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

11 months ago

Nothing fun ever included this card

I liked using it with Kaalia, Zenith Seeker at least. Better than Yet Another Panharmonicon Deck^TM.

Yawn combo card

I run Cloudstone Curio in my Animar deck as a combo piece. I'm not sure if there are any fair uses for it, and its pricetag doesn't help. It could be somewhat interesting as a value engine in Panharmonicon decks, or to protect your stuff from removal in a flash-heavy deck... but it's hard to justify spending that much money on a copy when Crystal Shard and other options can do similar things without setting off a ton of alarms for your opponents. Otherwise, bouncing your stuff back to hand tends to be too large of a tempo loss to want to do repeatedly unless your things are extremely cheap.

Outside Animar + morphs, the main uses cases I see for it on EDHREC are Kodama of the East Tree, kobolds, and Dockside Extortionist. So... yeah, nothing fair here.

...on the plus side, it looks like the LOTR-version reprint is significantly cheaper. I suspect a lot of its pricetag is just due to the lack of meaningful reprints.

Mookie wrote: ↑

11 months ago

I run Cloudstone Curio in my Animar deck as a combo piece. I'm not sure if there are any fair uses for it, and its pricetag doesn't help. It could be somewhat interesting as a value engine in Panharmonicon decks, or to protect your stuff from removal in a flash-heavy deck... but it's hard to justify spending that much money on a copy when Crystal Shard and other options can do similar things without setting off a ton of alarms for your opponents. Otherwise, bouncing your stuff back to hand tends to be too large of a tempo loss to want to do repeatedly unless your things are extremely cheap.

Outside Animar + morphs, the main uses cases I see for it on EDHREC are Kodama of the East Tree, kobolds, and Dockside Extortionist. So... yeah, nothing fair here.

...on the plus side, it looks like the LOTR-version reprint is significantly cheaper. I suspect a lot of its pricetag is just due to the lack of meaningful reprints.

Hmm, this tells me I should move mine over to Sauron since I can bounce the big guy when I amass 👌

Yup, use it in Lathliss to replay stuff. Play Scourge of Valkas, make a 5/5, bounce the Scourge and just keep going is the best way I found of dealing with games where I can't swing for lethal.

Dragonlover

Ugh, yeah, not a design I'm fond of. I think most fair uses of the card are too inefficient, and certainly at any pub game even if you intend nothing degenerate the table will probably kill it, or you, on sight.

3drinks wrote: ↑

11 months ago

Hmm, this tells me I should move mine over to Sauron since I can bounce the big guy when I amass 👌

Would need a way to sac the army ofc (assuming you're wanting to bounce in response to removal).

There are absolutely fair uses for this. It can create plenty of value and hit cast triggers that blink misses without going infinite. Just bouncing and replaying a couple cheap etb dudes every turn can be getting your mana's worth. There's plenty of strong but fair, and even fun, things to do with it, you don't just have to go infinite with kobolds.

Playing Cloudstone Curio in Momir Vig, Simic Visionary has ruined both for me. I ignore Curio completely these days.

Archetype of Endurance can be creature-tutored, so that is nice in mono-green.
Archetype of Courage is nuts with Zur 2.0.
Archetype of Aggression provides warrior tribal with trample.
Archetype of Imagination has great typing.

DirkGently wrote: ↑

11 months ago

3drinks wrote: ↑

11 months ago

Hmm, this tells me I should move mine over to Sauron since I can bounce the big guy when I amass 👌

Would need a way to sac the army ofc (assuming you're wanting to bounce in response to removal).

It's a cast trigger. The Army will be there first, though I guess it doesn't matter since you also get a trigger on the reanimated body. This actually doesn't work since Sauron will hit after the two bodies are on board. Damn he actually did need to be ETB to use cloudstone...

Mookie wrote: ↑

11 months ago

I run Cloudstone Curio in my Animar deck as a combo piece. I'm not sure if there are any fair uses for it, and its pricetag doesn't help. It could be somewhat interesting as a value engine in Panharmonicon decks, or to protect your stuff from removal in a flash-heavy deck... but it's hard to justify spending that much money on a copy when Crystal Shard and other options can do similar things without setting off a ton of alarms for your opponents. Otherwise, bouncing your stuff back to hand tends to be too large of a tempo loss to want to do repeatedly unless your things are extremely cheap.

In theory it can be played "fairly", but in the context of Animar, Lord of comboing with a Ham Sandwich, the reality is that if you'd just end up with an overwhelming board state that makes people groan and you public enemy #1 if there was a finite end of using the Curio that didn't just end the game. But then again, the overall power levels of the format are going up, so maybe there may come a day you can actually actually end up with dozen creatures and a full hand with no mana left and it'd still seem fair on the table. But coming from the older era, I'm still instinctively trained to keep the card unplayed until I need to and can combo out to finish a game.