Let's Brew Thalia and The Gitrog Monster: Man I Love Frogs

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago



For years I waited in vain for an Abzan commander that spoke to me. Release after release I was met with disappointment after disappointment. Today, that disappointment ends, because we have the dumb, generic value commander I've always wanted. See, back in my day, Abzan was simply called Junk, because it was just a bunch of good junk jammed together, like some kind of Frankendeck. And lo, it was very good.

Thalia and The Gitrog Monster check virtually every box I wanted and then some. Ramp, disruption, card advantage, and a potent blocker all in one card? What were they thinking? I don't care. They done did it, and they can't undone it, so here we are.

I will state the obvious right away: this deck isn't going to win any awards for originality. Jam all the best two mana ramp spells in to deploy our girl and frog on turn 3, poop out a bunch of lands, slow down your opponents, and protect yourself. Attack as necessary to draw cards, recur those lands with Crucible of Worlds, rinse and repeat. The deck practically builds itself. All that said, I can tell you from experience that these sorts of decks often have problems closing out games. Sure, Field of the Dead is a dumb Magic card, and since we're going to be running Thespian's Stage Dark Depths is an easy include, but those generally aren't enough to consistently win games. My previous attempt at an Abzan lands deck had it easy in this regard since our win cons were in the command zone, but that in and of itself can be problematic since it's sort of telegraphed.

So, my biggest concern is finding a fun and effective win condition. Any boring combo is an option, but yawn. Rude Awakening and Sylvan Awakening might work as in the Kamahl and Ravos deck, but will be far less consistent since it would likely require recurring them multiple times for multiple animations. Good ol' fashioned commander damage seems a bit unrealistic. I'm honestly at a loss on this one.

What do we think?

I am completely aware that Frankenstein is the doctor, not the monster. Don't @ me.

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

Following with great interest

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

I'm my experience, extort always does way more work than anyone expected.
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Post by EonAon » 1 year ago


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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Finally a land deck that can use flagstones.

Finale of devastation is the natural finisher I think.

I kinda lean toward the enchantments that make tokens with a grave pact subtheme but I'm a monster.

Being able to volraths stronghold's loop with just your commander and death effects is gross. World shaper get in the truck buddy.

Dredge guys are great. Cast stinky bash and dredge five. Yay.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
I'm my experience, extort always does way more work than anyone expected.
It would require running a critical density of Extort effects, almost all of which don't really contribute to the overall gameplan of the deck. That said, it's an okay strategy in slower decks.
EonAon wrote:
1 year ago
Conduit of Worlds + Crucible of Worlds + Flagstones of Trokair and Ramunap Excavator seem like decent enough includes.
Don't forget Ancient Greenwarden; doubling up on ETBs for Field of the Dead and Landfall effects is great. I don't like Perennial Behemoth much though. I suppose it's cool that it can be used as a sort of Rampant Growth effect with Unearth, but at five mana I think there's better things we can be doing.

Also, I completely forgot about Flagstones of Trokair. Dang, this deck is already cool.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Finally a land deck that can use flagstones.

Finale of devastation is the natural finisher I think.

I kinda lean toward the enchantments that make tokens with a grave pact subtheme but I'm a monster.

Being able to volraths stronghold's loop with just your commander and death effects is gross. World shaper get in the truck buddy.

Dredge guys are great. Cast stinky bash and dredge five. Yay.
Why Finale of Devastation? I'm not sure what you'd grab with it that automatically closes games.

Other than Stinkweed Imp, Life from the Loam, and Dakmor Salvage I think the dredge cards will underperform. Those three are pretty busted, but Golgari Grave-Troll? Golgari Thug looks like a nonbo unfortunately.

Shout out to Dread Presence/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth/Scapeshift. Is Scapeshift too unfair?

Clearly all the extra land drop cards like Exploration, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Oracle of Mul Daya, et al. Clearly the best Landfall cards like Avenger of Zendikar, Tireless Provisioner, Scute Swarm, et al.

Knight of the Reliquary is the best reason to be in white for lands-centric decks.

It may be premature to think about lands, but my gut says at least 44. With an extra land drop effect in the command zone, it makes sense to load up on lands to really take advantage of it. I worry we'll run out of gas with so many lands and extra drops, which leads me to draw effects. What are we doing for card advantage? Sure, we can draw cards with our commander, but I don't think that's going to be sufficient. Hostile Negotiations seems real good, digging us deep and filling our graveyard. Moonlight Bargain/Search for Blex? I'm fond of Painful Truths as well. Sensei's Divining Top is great for filtering and triggering Dredge.

EDIT: This is 100% a Seasons Past deck. Hell yeah.

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Drownyard Temple + Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth + Knight of the Reliquary = extra value. Beyond that, there are a bunch of sweet white landfall cards - Felidar Retreat and Emeria Shepherd are probably the two most notable, but having a sac outlet (and landfall engine) in the command zone means this may finally be the perfect deck for Trove Warden (who can also recur lands, for some reason).

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Here's a first stab:


Thalia and The Gitrog Monster
Approximate Total Cost:




I suspect it needs one or two more lands and more card draw, but I haven't tested so I don't know what to cut. One more land would mean we would usually hit our first six land drops.

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Post by Avacyn Believer » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
So, my biggest concern is finding a fun and effective win condition.
I came to this thread looking for answers and all I see is questions! :rofl: but seriously though, I was going to ask the same thing because whenever I see commander like this, my thoughts go to 'how do I win that isn't Voltron?' More of a personal question, because that is what I play the most and I am trying to branch out... which sometime leaves me at a loss with how a deck is suppose to win. It's great to have all the utility and card draw in the world, but the deck ought to be able to end the game somehow.

After reading the suggestions here, I thought, why be clever about it and not do something obvious? By that I mean Eldrazi titans. Generally I am not a fan of them because they are not thematic to many decks so I find them boring... but it could be the end game for this deck. You'll have all the value in the early game with many many lands, nobody will want to attack into first strike with deathtouch, and then just generate enough mana to drop down titans. It would justify running Finale of Devastation and other tutors.

Those are my thoughts about how I'd approach this deck, since the commander is just value but not a wincon.
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Post by Arebennian » 1 year ago

Entomb or Unmarked Grave for Life from the Loam? Or maybe other utility lands?

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Post by Arebennian » 1 year ago

Actually, probably pointless when you can run tutors early as efficient and get the effect in hand

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Ob Nixilis, the Fallen can be a wincon. I have seen this card drain amazing amounts of life. Pair with Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Ancient Greenwarden with a fetch land and that would be what, 36 targeted damage and a 39/39 creature? I have one waiting for the 5 color lands deck that I will build sometime in the next 5 years 😄

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Why Finale of Devastation? I'm not sure what you'd grab with it that automatically closes games.
Finale is a 2 cmc ramp spell (Dryad Arbor ) and if you do X = 10 with a bunch of zombie tokens from Field out, you win. It's way, way better than Rude Awakening et al. Scute swarm and field become pretty compact wincons that way. Make a buncha tokens, win the game! With somethin that is also a beginning of the game ramp spell and a graveyard recursion for whatever we need.

Agree re Seasons Past for sure.

I think the loam/salvage/stinky dredge package is probably right. I like stinky because it doesn't take a land drop to trigger commander, but it's cuttable.

I also think this is probably a Earthcraft deck, since I at least will be going deep on Field/Scute swarm antics.But maybe that's jus winmore? With our commander, the odds are in favor of us being at 10 mana on turn 5-6 most games (commander on 3, go to 5 on turn 3, 7 turn 4, 9 turn 5 jus toff your commander).

I wonder if maybe our ramp strategy is just...like you said, always get the commander out on 3 and always have lands to play. Going very consistently to 9 on turn 5 is probably plenty good without too many effects.

It's possible we don't even need to play Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Wayward Swordtooth stuff. Just Nature's Lore and Exploration - 1-2 cmc ramps. ideally ones that don't take mana out of our hand other than exploration and maybe Burgeoning


The more I think about it the more think the 3 cmc ramp bros are just total winmore, and so is The Gitrog Monster. I doubt we even need Dryad of the Ilysian Grove unless going for Dread Presence. I do think that new "all lands are basic" dude might be cool.

Our commander being an exploration effect I think changes the deck to play more like Azusa, Lost but Seeking as a commander.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Arebennian wrote:
1 year ago
Entomb or Unmarked Grave for Life from the Loam? Or maybe other utility lands?
Arebennian wrote:
1 year ago
Actually, probably pointless when you can run tutors early as efficient and get the effect in hand
Entomb for loam is more efficient than Vampiric Tutor for it, beacuse the dredge happens at your draw step, filling your yard with targets.

Generally speaking you want Demonic Tutor then Vampiric Tutor then Entomb in a loam deck in my experience. But Entomb is often the best, since it's 1 cmc draw 1-2 plus demonic tutor in the early game :)

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

You're missing Tireless Tracker. You probably add Urza's Saga since you have a mechanism to regrow it and there's some natural stuff you want to fetch up every game anyway.

I like Worm Harvest in these kinds of lands decks. I really like Countryside Crusher too, but you can't use that here. Ayula's Influence will do some heavy lifting, though.

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

Tracker is in Draw, maybe her cousin Tireless Provisioner can be fun.

I think a couple of mana sinks might be good, no? Either of the Kamahls might be fine, I really like first of Krosa because you can activate multiple times and you can snipe out lands if you have old norn out.

Also, new norn will also double your landfall while hating on oponente triggers. Maja, Bretagard Protector will also pump out creatures and has anthem built in. Tbh why not more of these effects like Emeria Angel or the enchantment?

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Finale is a 2 cmc ramp spell (Dryad Arbor ) and if you do X = 10 with a bunch of zombie tokens from Field out, you win. It's way, way better than Rude Awakening et al. Scute swarm and field become pretty compact wincons that way. Make a buncha tokens, win the game! With somethin that is also a beginning of the game ramp spell and a graveyard recursion for whatever we need.
Oh. Right.
I also think this is probably a Earthcraft deck, since I at least will be going deep on Field/Scute swarm antics.But maybe that's jus winmore? With our commander, the odds are in favor of us being at 10 mana on turn 5-6 most games (commander on 3, go to 5 on turn 3, 7 turn 4, 9 turn 5 jus toff your commander).
I think Earthcraft is winmore. What are you doing with all that mana? We don't have any great mana sinks (see below).
I wonder if maybe our ramp strategy is just...like you said, always get the commander out on 3 and always have lands to play. Going very consistently to 9 on turn 5 is probably plenty good without too many effects.

It's possible we don't even need to play Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Wayward Swordtooth stuff. Just Nature's Lore and Exploration - 1-2 cmc ramps. ideally ones that don't take mana out of our hand other than exploration and maybe Burgeoning

The more I think about it the more think the 3 cmc ramp bros are just total winmore, and so is The Gitrog Monster. I doubt we even need Dryad of the Ilysian Grove unless going for Dread Presence. I do think that new "all lands are basic" dude might be cool.
I like redundancy, but if we're playing our commander ahead of the curve fairly frequently then you might be right. This would free up a few deck slots for other purposes.

EDIT: Azusa is way way way too good to not play. Assuming we have our commander out, a fetch in the graveyard, and a land recursion card (not exactly a tall order), that's eight landfall triggers in one turn. The others can possibly go. OG Gitrog at least doubles as a card draw engine.
3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
I like Worm Harvest in these kinds of lands decks.
Worm Harvest is probably better here than in most land decks, actually.
duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
I think a couple of mana sinks might be good, no?
I agree. I think it could use something like Greed or something to just sink a whole bunch of mana into as necessary.
Also, new norn will also double your landfall while hating on oponente triggers. Maja, Bretagard Protector will also pump out creatures and has anthem built in. Tbh why not more of these effects like Emeria Angel or the enchantment?
Norn... could be good, actually. I was wanting to steer clear of hatebears since our commander is already a speed bump, but new Norn could do work. As for the others, well, I think they're a little underwhelming. Field and Scute Swarm do the same thing (as well as Worm Harvest) and are much more compact win conditions in and of themselves.

I forgot about Titania, Protector of Argoth

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

I've been running the numbers and in order to consistently have drawn six lands by turn four we'd need to play fifty-four of them. That's a bit high, considering we're going to end up running about fifteen ramp spells. The real strength of the bonus land drops is in conjunction with something like Crucible of Worlds. Forty-six lands gives us a roughly fifty-fifty shot at having six on turn five, assuming we don't cast any cheap draw spells. That's pretty reasonable. But... what exactly are we ramping into? It's all well and good to vomit out all the lands, but if we don't do anything with them then it's kind of pointless. I want to see some decent mana sinks here but I can't really think of any.

Speaking of draw spells, we absolutely need more of them. Before we get a Crucible online we're going to quickly run out of cards in hand and be stuck with a boatload of mana and nothing to spend it on. Sign in Blood and Read the Bones are easy includes, and Ransack the Lab and Abundant Harvest are on my radar. In addition to Moonlight Bargain I'm even considering stinkers like Ancient Craving and Ambition's Cost as C-list draw spells that aren't that bad here since we're going to have a plethora of mana available. Skeletal Scrying is a blast from the past that could probably do great work here. I have a weakness for Once and Future, too.

Constant Mists. Why not? We likely don't need Heroic Intervention or Flawless Maneuver since our board can be easily recovered.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
I've been running the numbers and in order to consistently have drawn six lands by turn four we'd need to play fifty-four of them. That's a bit high, considering we're going to end up running about fifteen ramp spells
What I was getting at with the whole 'azusa/et.al' - the engine of this deck is going to be a Ramunap Excavator effect. So what I would do is load up on as many of that effect as you can and as many fetchlands and yard filling effects.

I don't think we need any vanilla card draw spells; Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds == draw X per turn where X is your # of land drops.

When I say *plays like Azusa* that's kinda what I mean. You need a lot of ways to find lands. More Realms Uncharted and less Sign in Blood.

We want crazy bomb card draw like Cultivator Colossus not Wall of Omens or whatever.

I think we want around 45-ish lands and just tons of ways to find crucible effects, and then some bomb spells, mostly? But a sprinkling of "fill the graveyard" and "find a bunch of lands" too.

WE also must run Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying imho. And some cycling lands (at least the GW dual and green 1 mana cycler), and both the enemy horizon lands.

I am kinda interested in trying Titania's Command too

The Realms Uncharted package of Gaea's Cradle Field of the Dead Petrified Field and Deserted Temple is friggin nasty :)

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
I've been running the numbers and in order to consistently have drawn six lands by turn four we'd need to play fifty-four of them. That's a bit high, considering we're going to end up running about fifteen ramp spells
What I was getting at with the whole 'azusa/et.al' - the engine of this deck is going to be a Ramunap Excavator effect. So what I would do is load up on as many of that effect as you can and as many fetchlands and yard filling effects.

I don't think we need any vanilla card draw spells; Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds == draw X per turn where X is your # of land drops.

When I say *plays like Azusa* that's kinda what I mean. You need a lot of ways to find lands. More Realms Uncharted and less Sign in Blood.

We want crazy bomb card draw like Cultivator Colossus not Wall of Omens or whatever.

I think we want around 45-ish lands and just tons of ways to find crucible effects, and then some bomb spells, mostly? But a sprinkling of "fill the graveyard" and "find a bunch of lands" too.

WE also must run Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying imho. And some cycling lands (at least the GW dual and green 1 mana cycler), and both the enemy horizon lands.
I don't think we need too many graveyard filling effects. I have ten fetches in the list which should be sufficient to comfortably pair with the Crucible effects. As for Crucible and fetches, they don't exactly equate to drawing cards; they're card advantage sure but they don't dig us deeper into the deck. I've long been an advocate for running Night's Whisper et al. in virtually every deck that can support them, and it's no different here. Need some more land drops early on? Whisper. Plenty of mana, but no gas? Whisper. I tend to prefer grindy, incremental advantages over bombs, though. I suppose it's the control player in me.

Realms Uncharted is a card I completely forgot about somehow. This is a grave error on my part since Gifts Ungiven is one of my favorite cards.

Maybe Sylvan Scrying, but we're in black and have universal tutors for days, as well as Knight of the Reliquary. I'm already running the one mana cycling lands as they're effectively just bad cantrips that can be recurred in a pinch or become part of a busted draw engine with Life from the Loam. I hate the bicycle lands with a passion. Two is a tough pill to swallow to draw one card, and entering in tapped is a bummer. I guess they're fetchable but meh. I'm running all three Horizon lands.

Anyway, here's decklist 1.1:



Thalia and The Gitrog Monster
Approximate Total Cost:


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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I think you'll find those random card draw spells to be mostly pointless. More Cultivator Colossus more Ohran Frostfang less draw 2 cards.

I'm generally pro 2-cmc draw spells, but your commander is functionally a Phyrexian Arena and just needs 4 mana, so I'd be on more Deathrite Shaman and maybe a Utopia Sprawl / Wild Growth personally before 2 cmc card draw. You are already going to have plenty of card draw.

I think Sylvan Ranger and Satyr Wayfinder will drastically outperform draw spells. There're a lot of those effects, and Sakura-Tribe Elder as well.

Hell Commune with Nature and Oath of Nissa are really going to crush the black draw spells. G on turn 1 is 100% required, so build around that I say :)

especially Sign in Blood which needlessly taxes your black mana.

oh, Grisly Salvage is another one that'll beat most of the black draw spells. Grapple with the Past is *playable* too
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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

Top deck lands are sweet. Oracle does it the best but Courser of Kruphix and Augur of Autumn do it too. These effects will "draw" so many cards each game its crazy.

Some yard filling is very synergistic top, Satyr Wayfinder and Circle of the Land Druid which would be the perfect sacrifice for thalia and gitrog

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
Top deck lands are sweet. Oracle does it the best but Courser of Kruphix and Augur of Autumn do it too. These effects will "draw" so many cards each game its crazy.

Some yard filling is very synergistic top, Satyr Wayfinder and Circle of the Land Druid which would be the perfect sacrifice for thalia and gitrog
Going along with that Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack really, really overperform in these decks in my experience. There're a few other things in the topdeck package too.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
I've been running the numbers and in order to consistently have drawn six lands by turn four we'd need to play fifty-four of them. That's a bit high, considering we're going to end up running about fifteen ramp spells. The real strength of the bonus land drops is in conjunction with something like Crucible of Worlds. Forty-six lands gives us a roughly fifty-fifty shot at having six on turn five, assuming we don't cast any cheap draw spells. That's pretty reasonable. But... what exactly are we ramping into? It's all well and good to vomit out all the lands, but if we don't do anything with them then it's kind of pointless. I want to see some decent mana sinks here but I can't really think of any.
This is an awful lot of text to say "I want to leverage Ayula's Influence."

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I think you'll find those random card draw spells to be mostly pointless. More Cultivator Colossus more Ohran Frostfang less draw 2 cards.

I'm generally pro 2-cmc draw spells, but your commander is functionally a Phyrexian Arena and just needs 4 mana, so I'd be on more Deathrite Shaman and maybe a Utopia Sprawl / Wild Growth personally before 2 cmc card draw. You are already going to have plenty of card draw.

I think Sylvan Ranger and Satyr Wayfinder will drastically outperform draw spells. There're a lot of those effects, and Sakura-Tribe Elder as well.

Hell Commune with Nature and Oath of Nissa are really going to crush the black draw spells. G on turn 1 is 100% required, so build around that I say :)

especially Sign in Blood which needlessly taxes your black mana.

oh, Grisly Salvage is another one that'll beat most of the black draw spells. Grapple with the Past is *playable* too
I've played quite a few land decks. Without consistent draw effects I always found that they tended to peter out after a while. All dressed up and nowhere to go, as it were. I'm willing to concede that the smaller draw effects should be chonkier draw effects, but I fervantly disagree that Ranger/Wayfinder/Commune/Oath would outperform draw spells. It's turn eight. You have eleven mana available. Which is the better topdeck? Scalability is a thing. Sure, the creatures leave behind a body to be sacrificed to draw a card, but so what? Why jump through those hoops when you could just, you know, play a draw spell?

It's like playing a bunch of draw spells in Erebos, God of the Dead or cascade in Maelstrom Wanderer. Some redundancy is okay, but you need to diversify and shore up weaknesses. This deck will already put a metric ton of lands into play without these get-a-land cantrips. Why keep piling them on?

Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth are fantastic, though. Anything to help us get Beauty and the Beast out an extra turn earlier to start the value train.
duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
Top deck lands are sweet. Oracle does it the best but Courser of Kruphix and Augur of Autumn do it too. These effects will "draw" so many cards each game its crazy.

Some yard filling is very synergistic top, Satyr Wayfinder and Circle of the Land Druid which would be the perfect sacrifice for thalia and gitrog
Maybe. I just cut Oracle of Mul Daya but it could easily find its way back in since it pulls double duty, but I've never been a fan of Courser or Augur. Again, I would just draw cards outright instead of having to go through a middle man.

Maybe I'm spoiled. The last Lands deck I played was Search for Blex. Having a card draw spell that also fueled the graveyard in the command zone was pretty bonkers.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Going along with that Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack really, really overperform in these decks in my experience. There're a few other things in the topdeck package too.
These are great suggestions. Probably better than midrange draw spells, for sure.
3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
This is an awful lot of text to say "I want to leverage Ayula's Influence."
One land into a single 2/2 pales in comparison to playing the land and getting a 2/2 all without taking up a meaningful deck slot. We have to think bigger. With Finale of Devastation and possibly Craterhoof Behemoth (yawn) it looks like we're going wide.

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