Zada: Grinding up an Arcane Storm

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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 1 year ago

One thing I'd like to mention is that in high power / cEDH, you may be more likely to run into countermagic in addition to spot removal. Can't cast Deflecting Swat for free to stop Zada from being countered (and spending 2r is probably undesirable), though Ricochet Trap would likely only cost r. Still cutting into the trying-to-go-off mana, but less so.

And I've seen a General Tazri+Zada deck in action a few weeks ago. Still pretty explosive.

Though not a higher-power direction, I've also seen folks take Zada in a direction that's less glass-cannon and more able to function without her. Much less stormy, but that's also a direction that's consistent/resilient/adaptable.
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Post by Ulka » 1 year ago

lyonhaert wrote:
1 year ago
One thing I'd like to mention is that in high power / cEDH, you may be more likely to run into countermagic in addition to spot removal. Can't cast Deflecting Swat for free to stop Zada from being countered (and spending 2r is probably undesirable), though Ricochet Trap would likely only cost r. Still cutting into the trying-to-go-off mana, but less so.

And I've seen a General Tazri+Zada deck in action a few weeks ago. Still pretty explosive.

Though not a higher-power direction, I've also seen folks take Zada in a direction that's less glass-cannon and more able to function without her. Much less stormy, but that's also a direction that's consistent/resilient/adaptable.
I will speak to the power of General Tazri as a Zada deck commander. I could easily up my counterspells ratio slightly and I do think it would fight decently at lower powered cEDH tables.
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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 1 year ago

My memory didn't serve me too well, but yeah it was your Tazri+Zada deck. XD
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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

Beta version of a 5c TaZada cEDH-ish list -- would love some feedback!! (confession: I've already been bothering Ulka to look it over for the last few days :?)

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/9KO-Sh8duE6hrDNKyQlS7A

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Whipsaw wrote:
1 year ago
Beta version of a 5c TaZada cEDH-ish list -- would love some feedback!! (confession: I've already been bothering Ulka to look it over for the last few days :?)

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/9KO-Sh8duE6hrDNKyQlS7A
That's a cool list, I would not have thought about getting mana off of cards like Enter the Unknown or Scale the Heights to drop lands out. I spent a while years ago trying to capitalize on multicolor Zada with an arcane splice in of Kodama's Reach and this seems to be more efficient.

I'm curious about the treasure side of your mana engines. From what cEDH I've played there is increasing centralization about making/staxing out treasures in the past year, so I'm a bit curious whether Storm-Kiln Artist can hold up long term, desire it being an amazing source of mana and in this case specifically mana fixing.

In a similar vein, I'm a bit skeptical of Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy as well. He strikes me as a bit underwhelming early, not providing as much mana as Bloom Tender and his ceiling also seems low once you're casting Heat Shimmer effects. Other than also functioning as a mana sink, I feel like Faeburrow Elder could outperform in most cases, as copies scale better. It also works well with Freed from the Real and Tazri herself can operate as the mana sink, although to a more limited result.

On the cantrips, I personally prefer them to be as mana efficient as possible, so I would look at Dark Dabbling compared to something like shadow rift, or even a good protective scrytrip like Gods Willing or a 'free' protective spell like Ephemeral Shields. The importance of this really depends on the amount of surplus mana you typically encounter and how quickly. I will note that having a couple of instant speed scrytrips often doesn't cause too much pain during a storm turn as long as you draw 1 card at a time. They let you dig into the card you need while adding more functionality at lower MV. Just make sure to keep the count of them low so they don't overly impact your mulligans.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Robobro72 » 1 year ago

Whipsaw wrote:
1 year ago
Beta version of a 5c TaZada cEDH-ish list -- would love some feedback!! (confession: I've already been bothering Ulka to look it over for the last few days :?)

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/9KO-Sh8duE6hrDNKyQlS7A
Super into this list as well. Random thoughts on it as I have done some initial tinkering with Tazri. Seeing that you focus less on pump spells, could Manaweft Sliver / Gemhide Sliver be beneficial over or in addition to Ilysian Caryatid? The upside of Mirror Entity turning everything into a sliver dork and to a lesser extent Orvar seems pretty sick.

Double checking your list I saw that you took out Mirror entity and were changing things in the past few minutes so oops!

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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

Thank you for the kind words -- don't take any of the changes as hard/firm....still very much a WIP and doing some tinkering with wincons, etc.

I agree with you -- the idea with Mirror Entity is to be able to make my entire board either an Ally (to feed Harabaz Druid) for some extra umph or if I ended up going with the dork slivers the same idea.

I ran this build by a small cedh communiy last night and it was complete and utter rejection; the main feedback was "how are you going to aCtIvAtE tAzRi if you're hellbent!?" :rofl:

My response was "I can draw my entire deck in 4.5 turns if a decent opener" and it was met with immense skepticsm :rofl:

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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago

That's a cool list, I would not have thought about getting mana off of cards like Enter the Unknown or Scale the Heights to drop lands out. I spent a while years ago trying to capitalize on multicolor Zada with an arcane splice in of Kodama's Reach and this seems to be more efficient.

I'm curious about the treasure side of your mana engines. From what cEDH I've played there is increasing centralization about making/staxing out treasures in the past year, so I'm a bit curious whether Storm-Kiln Artist can hold up long term, desire it being an amazing source of mana and in this case specifically mana fixing.

In a similar vein, I'm a bit skeptical of Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy as well. He strikes me as a bit underwhelming early, not providing as much mana as Bloom Tender and his ceiling also seems low once you're casting Heat Shimmer effects. Other than also functioning as a mana sink, I feel like Faeburrow Elder could outperform in most cases, as copies scale better. It also works well with Freed from the Real and Tazri herself can operate as the mana sink, although to a more limited result.

On the cantrips, I personally prefer them to be as mana efficient as possible, so I would look at Dark Dabbling compared to something like shadow rift, or even a good protective scrytrip like Gods Willing or a 'free' protective spell like Ephemeral Shields. The importance of this really depends on the amount of surplus mana you typically encounter and how quickly. I will note that having a couple of instant speed scrytrips often doesn't cause too much pain during a storm turn as long as you draw 1 card at a time. They let you dig into the card you need while adding more functionality at lower MV. Just make sure to keep the count of them low so they don't overly impact your mulligans.
I appreciate the kind words and feedback!

I spent a lot of hours over the past month noodling over and tweaking this deck after reading and re-reading your Zada mono red primer and then repeatedly going over Ulka's 4-color version and then Admiral Sultan's Crouching Tazri Hidden Zada thread over at MTG Salvation. This deck started as a ( ridiculous in a bad way) fusion of Tazri Food Chain + Zada storm + Ally tribal, then I ended up cutting the FC line and most of the Ally tricks b/c it was too clunky and the 5-7 cards needs for the core FC line + the tons of mana dorks/non-critical allies ended up diluting my draws too much. After goldfishing a bunch, I basically decided that the deck either had to be FC/Ally focused or Zada Storm focused and I went with Zada. What can I say....I'm a simple person that likes to end up with a hand of 60+ cards by turn 6.

I agree with you completely re: treasure risk....stax pieces like Null Rod, Collector Ouphe, or Karn, the Great Creator will absolutely cripple the treasure generation for this deck (or any treasure centric cards). I don't really know a better solution to play around it beyond getting lucky and playing out a bunch of copies of the extra land drop cantrips. My gut says to play more removal in this deck (I used to run 4-5 removal pieces) but I need to run the geometric distributions to see how taking X draw cantrips out will impact my expected draw percentages vs the current state.

Your point on Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy is well taken -- he's gone from the current version of the deck. I have taken him out and put him back in probably 5 times over the initial 10+ iterations of the deck. My initial thought was that he could help me squeeze out a few extra mana from my dorks/rocks if he showed up early but frankly out of 50+ goldfishing attempts the bonder prodigy showed up once in pre-storm turns and ended up basically being a dead card for most of the testing.

My next phase of revisions is to put the scrytrips back into the ecosystem. I like them a lot with Zada mono-red and frankly they're probably needed here b/c there's a fair amount of time in the goldfishing where I'd get unlucky and draw 5-8 lands out of 10 cards and the storm just kind of peters out. Adding the scry triggers in between draw triggers should def smooth out the draw a lot better if i'm mana flooded.

My long-term goal for this one is to make it as cEDH as possible while keeping the core Zada storm intact. I'm not sure if it will end up making it b/c of the inherent inconsistency but I definitely love the feeling of the playing the deck in its current storm-centric form. Any and all feedback is welcome and appreciated.

(I'd love to link up over spelltable with you and Ulka and do a Zada 4-way mirror match!)

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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

I've been looking over the scrytrips tonight and Capenna gave us a sweet new one in white which seems like it could get bonkers when combined with Veyran, Voice of Duality and/or some method of recursion.



And then we've got the old reliables:

Gods Willing
Samut's Sprint
Sheltering Light
Stand Firm
Battlewise Valor
Inordinate Rage
Titan's Strength

There's even a small part of me that wants to pony up for a fatty 3 drop like Ferocious Charge or bring in some extra tokens with Fated Infatuation since I'm only thinking of adding a couple to the mix.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Honestly, I mainly think of the 1 MV scrytrips. Due to the removal that is exile/bounce I think that protection from colors is likely better than shield counters, but both seem good. The scry 2 cards definitely dig deep, but at 3 MV I'm a bit cautious of using them. I'm curious to hear how you find those in testing, and if you can swing the hard uuu cost for Fated Infatuation it has great overlap into the creature copying. I know mana is often a bit short in monored Zada, but if you can afford the higher MV spells, they can statistically allow for a lower numerical density of cantrips, freeing up space for more interaction or other key deck slots.

I use Veyran, Voice of Duality in a Krark/Sakashima partners deck built around Zada/Orvar, and it can get out of hand quickly. It's a great way to double up on Zada triggers, and if you can spare the space it's probably solid. It does improve cards like Storm-Kiln Artist and Orvar as well, so it's not a Zada only card.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

v3 of the TaZada list -- had to throw in some more card draw...got too diluted in my prior cEDH orientation.

Thoughts/critiques appreciated!

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bM0p4Vpb9kOnxbROAMJVzA

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

It looks like you went for a more ally-centric approach, which is interesting to me because I do enjoy tribal/thematic builds but I wouldn't have expected to see Sea Gate Loremaster simply due to summoning sickness and high MV. I wonder about Hagra Diabolist or Kalastria Healer over the loremaster as an ally-centric "wincon" (arguing the loremaster is more wincon that card advantage). The inclusion of Intruder Alarm makes sense in the current build, but I suspect that Jeskai Ascendancy provides similar effects and better card selection without potentially enabling your opponents. I do enjoy the Retraction Helix line with it though, which the ascendancy does not enable.

I am somewhat skeptical of Halimar Excavator as a wincon due to the number of things which milling out either enables (opposing labman/eldrazi titan/Endurance). Honestly, I think Young Pyromancer is one of the best Zada support cards, so if the intention is a low curve creature that would be my swap. Alternatively, if you intended this as a self-mill strategy then some more recursion may be warranted. I didn't see much beyond Mavinda, Students' Advocate.

On both of the above; I will note that if you intend to stay on the Allies backup plan: Urza's Incubator pulls serious weight on 3+ MV tribal decks. This would almost certainly be better than Thought Vessel if you retain this part of the build. It pays for itself off Tazri+Zada alone, and nearly lets you drop both on the next turn on curve.

I'm also somewhat skeptical of Mavinda, Students' Advocate due to the once/turn limitation. Is the intention to set up over the course of a turn cycle with a cantrip or two on each turn? I'm having a bit of difficulty envisioning a state where Mavinda would outperform something like Underworld Breach for mana efficiency, and the threat profile that would make Mavinda good (3+ creatures with Zada) is nearly kill on sight anyway, so delaying over turns doesn't really fly under the radar. Can you explain the inclusion? Even something like Archaeomancer would potentially have more combo potential while being a creature if the MV can be supported.

If you do include Mavinda with the intention to build over turns, then I'd drop as many sorcery speed cantrips as possible. I think your list currently has 5, likely for color or MV reasons. I found several instant speed options which may work better for a draw-over-time approach. Bandage, Defiant Strike, Twisted Image, or even Fleeting Distraction would give you more options for card sequencing at the cost of less valuable effects than the evasion provided by Ancestral Anger, Cloak of Feathers, Nighthaze or Slip Through Space. Renegade Tactics would probably be the swap before those. The other feature of instant speed cantrips is the "go off in response" option, which is very potent in more control oriented games.

I'm also not entirely sure about the purpose of Harmonic Prodigy. It doesn't have that many creatures that meet it's criteria and it doesn't have a combo that I see with it. It seems like an available deck slot.

I really like Startle as a version of Spawning Breath that also draws cards. That's absurd and I should look into adding that to my blue+Zada list.

I think counting the proactive protection pieces you're around 11 cards of disruption, which is about average, I think. As the deck is proactive, this is reasonable but I'd worry if you sit down against three fast cEDH decks that you might not be disruptive enough. You're in a similar deck space to my only fringe cEDH (Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign) where you don't really start threatening a win in most cases until you've invested 6+ mana on the battlefield. Honestly, I swear by Mana Drain as a semi-ritual that's also disruption and I think it would outperform Thought Vessel as "ramp". I know it helps me land a 6 drop commander in turns 2-4 so it should help ramp Tazri into Zada.

My last comment on your current list is the relatively few was to interact with a Rule of Law effect. These are not uncommon in stax or semi-stax lists and I know from experience that those are very painful. If you can't counter it then you're either drawing on each turn or waiting until you can kill the player controlling it. Force of Vigor or some other removal seems potent here.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Had some work disruption, so I had today off and realized that I have not done an official set review in several months. Of course, this means that it's been 3 full sets due to the current pace of releases. My bad.

After much procrastinating, it's time for the Kawigama: Neon Dynasty
Side note: I'm going to remain sarcastically bitter about the exclusion of the arcane mechanic from its home plane.

Recommended Inclusions
  • Invoke Calamity: It was discussed briefly at release, but I've been impressed by calamity in this and other relatively low MV lists. It's more mana efficient than Past in Flames in virtually all cases, and while it does have a lower ceiling, it really helps that you can cast from hand and/or graveyard. It's also an instant, so I've landed Traitorous Greed + Twinflame at instant speed, which is frankly absurd. I haven't pulled off the absolute nonsense with it that dedicated Krark, the Thumbless decks can, but it's flexible and efficient. I like it.
  • Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance: This is a source of tokens which doesn't take up a card slot, and as a land it has no downsides. I've pivoted away from the heavy sacrifice a mountain alternative costs, so I'd included this in any Zada deck that's not pauper.
Not Recommended, but Possible Considerations
  • Mirror Box: keeping the legendary tokens you make off of Twinflame for a relatively low MV investment helps maintain critical mass, so in the case it's reasonable. However, there is basically no benefit to having 2 Zadas other than your opponents needing 2 removal spells. Even if you're running Krenko, Mob Boss it doesn't really add much. The best case is probably Pia and Kiran Nalaar, which...gives you 1/4/8... more creatures when doubling. It doesn't really outperform a non-legendary token source in most cases.
Not Considered, Do Not Include
  • Atsushi, the Blazing Sky: a 4 MV creature that needs to die for its ability to go off can be great for combos. It generates mana, and "draws" cards, but it's not really a great payoff for the mana when the plan is to sacrifice tokens of it off of heat shimmer.
Next Streets of New Capenna
Recommended Inclusions/Definite Tests
  • Audacious Swap: This is another Reality Scramble that casts the spells off the top of the deck. I've been meaning to test this card here for a month, but only just picked up a copy. Casting the spells off of the top means that they can target Zada mid-resolution to radiate. This will make the stack an utter mess to resolve, and does not guarantee the same/more creatures like normal off of reality scramble, but might make enough mana to redeploy off the lands. It's been a plan stuck in my head for too long not to test.
  • Jaxis, the Troublemaker: a total 3 MV Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker that draws cards off of Heat Shimmer is honestly worthwhile to test here. I have a copy to try, but have not tested it yet.
  • Indulge // Excess: This is effectively another Spawning Breath, but requires going to combat. It can also be a Battle Hymn post combat if a player has no blockers, so as long as the emptied mana pool isn't stopping you, it's probably great.
Possible Considerations/Maybe Goldfish
  • Exhibition Magician: same return on investment as Breya's Apprentice, with the option to make mana instead of creatures when copied later. A surprisingly flexible card, but not worth losing the exile-draw from apprentice.
  • Daring Escape: a low MV scrytrip. May be worth testing if I ever move away from self-damage.
  • Antagonize: relatively efficient pump spell. May be worthwhile in pauper.
Not Considered, Do Not Include (Why not X?) Commander Legends: Battle for Baldur's Gate
Recommended Inclusions/Definite Tests
  • Wild Magic Surge: If you're already running Chaos Warp and want a second copy, this is it. Otherwise, I'll remain disappointed that it can't be a self-polymorph; as busted as that would be.
Possible Considerations/Maybe Goldfish Not Considered, Do Not Include (Why not X?)
  • Ancient Copper Dragon: A 7 MV creature that needs to deal combat damage and averages 10 mana is not the type of card this deck wants.
Now for the changelog:
OutInWhy
Past in FlamesInvoke CalamityMV efficiency and the full yard recast is better handled by Underworld Breach
MountainSokenzan, Crucible of DefianceFree token slot


When the mail comes in, I plan to test Audacious Swap and Indulge // Excess. I'm leaning towards using the slots from Inordinate Rage and Kari Zev's Expertise respectively, but that's not firm.

I've also determined that there is a new best token/MV card for Zada, although it's only accessible in multicolor Zada builds that include g. Luxurious Libation doubles your creature count for a single green mana, far outpacing the previous best in class; Devastating Summons.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

That new chaotic transformation card for 4RR from DMU looks absolutely bonkers....

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Honestly, I think that the MV on Chaotic Transformation is too high for me. Zada only allows it to cast on a single target to gain triggers, so it's rather limited. It's very powerful removal though, so if you want a multipurpose answer to Rule of Law effects, it may be worthwhile.

I am realistically more likely to consider it in my Feather, the Redeemed control deck as a repeated remove option. Turning tokens and treasures into bombs and cost reduction each turn cycle while removing threats is potent, and it just comes back.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Toshi » 1 year ago

Off the current spoilers Twinferno looked far more promising than Chaotic Transformation.

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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

My thinking was more in line with CM's view -- it is removal for stuff that red has a real issue sometimes dealing with...more of a flexible multi-target backup to Chaos Warp or Wild Magic Surge. The cost is a bit prohibitive early but if Zada goes off with something like Sudden Breakthrough or Traitorous Greed then being able to remove multiple hate pieces at once seems pretty versatile.

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Post by Ren » 1 year ago

Hey all, I have been brewing my own Zada deck over the last few weeks and found this thread today, it has been a fascinating read and has given me a few new ideas. One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is man lands, In my own brew I've been using Inkmoth Nexus, Blinkmoth Nexus and Mishra's Factory as man lands that pay for themselves, in a pinch these can provide a few extra creatures at a minimal cost. There are a few ways to untap them and then re-use them for mana as well while storming off, for example, Traitorous Greed, Kari Zev's Expertise, Involuntary Employment, Unwilling Recruit or Fiery Gambit. I'm not 100% sure but I think these could also be copied with Twinflame or Heat Shimmer to make additional lands as well. It does cost a few Mountains but usually, you aren't getting more than 1 of them on the field before a storm turn, so it is a small cost for an extra creature. What are your thoughts on these inclusions?

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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

The man lands are probably fine if you're looking for more bodies but frankly this deck tends to win with maybe 4 lands out at most a large amount of the time and you're going to always be searching for that last red pip to keep the storm going. Packing a bunch of non red lands in is probably not worth it since you can make so many tokens as it is to support the strategy.

CM can give a much better answer to this question as it has been his baby for the longest.

Ren
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Post by Ren » 1 year ago

Whipsaw wrote:
1 year ago
The man lands are probably fine if you're looking for more bodies but frankly this deck tends to win with maybe 4 lands out at most a large amount of the time and you're going to always be searching for that last red pip to keep the storm going. Packing a bunch of non red lands in is probably not worth it since you can make so many tokens as it is to support the strategy.

CM can give a much better answer to this question as it has been his baby for the longest.
Thanks mate, in my own playing I've never managed to go off as quickly as turn 4 so maybe this version is quicker than my own. The man lands have helped me out a little so far, you may be right that there will be a game where I would rather have the red mana than an extra body, but it may also help to start a big turn when not getting enough creatures out otherwise. I checked with a judge, and if they are copied via heat shimmer or twinflame, they would just become new token untapped lands that could then be tapped again for mana, which is cool. Currently, I have a few in my list, inkmoth, blinkmoth, mishra's factory and mutavault (also a goblin) so will keep trying it out for now and see how they go for me.

Another card I'm running which I don't think makes the deck more powerful, but does make it more fun is Krark's Thumb :D I was considering Tavern Scoundrel too but it hasn't made it into any testing yet as I don't think I have enough coin flip payoffs.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Ren wrote:
1 year ago
Hey all, I have been brewing my own Zada deck over the last few weeks and found this thread today, it has been a fascinating read and has given me a few new ideas. One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is man lands, In my own brew I've been using Inkmoth Nexus, Blinkmoth Nexus and Mishra's Factory as man lands that pay for themselves, in a pinch these can provide a few extra creatures at a minimal cost. There are a few ways to untap them and then re-use them for mana as well while storming off, for example, Traitorous Greed, Kari Zev's Expertise, Involuntary Employment, Unwilling Recruit or Fiery Gambit. I'm not 100% sure but I think these could also be copied with Twinflame or Heat Shimmer to make additional lands as well. It does cost a few Mountains but usually, you aren't getting more than 1 of them on the field before a storm turn, so it is a small cost for an extra creature. What are your thoughts on these inclusions?
Sorry for the late reply, have been traveling on vacation and had no internet access. I think your more recent comment is dead on: colorless manlands are great for fitting more creatures into the available deck slots. The relatively low opportunity cost in red mana is where the trade-off shows up. Some games, having animated lands that can be copied for more mana is great (I spent too long trying to get Siege of Towers to work), and having simply targets scales up faster. There will be games where you have fewer red mana, and that will probably depend on whether you stop at 1-2 or run all 4+ (I'd include Kher Keep in that list, despite the differences).

Overall, I think that I'll probably look to pick up a Mutavault for my own testing. It's a good idea.

I'm not really sold on Krark's Thumb, is that only for Krark, the Thumbless and Fiery Gambit, or do you include some other coin oriented cards?

I will admit that my Krark/Sakashima deck makes great use of both the Thumb and Zada (and Orvar).
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



Ren
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Post by Ren » 1 year ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry for the late reply, have been traveling on vacation and had no internet access. I think your more recent comment is dead on: colorless manlands are great for fitting more creatures into the available deck slots. The relatively low opportunity cost in red mana is where the trade-off shows up. Some games, having animated lands that can be copied for more mana is great (I spent too long trying to get Siege of Towers to work), and having simply targets scales up faster. There will be games where you have fewer red mana, and that will probably depend on whether you stop at 1-2 or run all 4+ (I'd include Kher Keep in that list, despite the differences).

Overall, I think that I'll probably look to pick up a Mutavault for my own testing. It's a good idea.

I'm not really sold on Krark's Thumb, is that only for Krark, the Thumbless and Fiery Gambit, or do you include some other coin oriented cards?

I will admit that my Krark/Sakashima deck makes great use of both the Thumb and Zada (and Orvar).
Thanks for your thoughts, hope you enjoyed your vacation, no urgency to respond to my thoughts here, I just enjoyed the thread and wanted to contribute something. I think either Mutavault or Inkmoth Nexus (infect wincon) are probably the two most worthwhile man lands to consider, although Inkmoth is not very budget-friendly, Mutavault got a recent reprint and was priced pretty reasonably for a while, seems to be on the way back up. I did have a Kher Keep in the list originally but I eventually cut it for man lands instead, if it made red mana instead of colourless, or could somehow help to pay its own costs, it might be worth considering. All of the man lands I'm running can pay their own creature costs which makes them quite useful.

And yes the thumb is just there purely for Krark and Fiery Gambit, both quite powerful features of the deck. It's probably not worth a slot if looking to optimize the deck, but I'm trying to make it a bit more fun so I found a space for it. I am also considering Molten Birth but it's currently in my maybe list, along with Tavern Scoundrel, I haven't worked them in yet as I think they would just dilute the deck too much and are less likely to be drawn when I need them. There is some interesting ramp potential if all are drawn in the right order, but it might work better in another deck though.

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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

CM -- here's where we're gotten thus far on the storm vs storm-ish combo discussion currently.

Zada Storm = https://www.moxfield.com/decks/HJCBGuLazEqzv3kJM9I12A
-- more traditional storm/draw a ton of cards shell
-- main wincons are Dualcaster combo, Fiery Gambit on a big field; we're toying with a Kick in the Door loop to drain opponents out with a big enough field of bodies
-- backup wincons are beats with some of the +X/0 and/or trample enabling cantrips

Zada PolyStax = https://www.moxfield.com/decks/KS_iNWJrlkC83us8cUEOZw
-- looking to hit a 5+ token board with a polymorph effect like Reality Scramble, Transmogrify, or Indomitable Creativity and turn them into real stuff to kick start layered combo lines
-- heavier stax tilt
-- Dualcaster combo
-- couple of clone combo lines involving Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and/or Jaxis, the Troublemaker
-- Also some infinite treasure lines with Dockside Extortionist, Cloudstone Curio and Goblin Welder
-- backup wincon can go beats as well via combat-oriented draw cantrips

Would definitely appreciate any follow-up thoughts on the direction(s) we're heading currently. Thank you!

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

On the first deck, there are some cards that I never really got to work well in my experience. Dragon's Rage Channeler is low MV but ends up being functionally the same as 2 creatures. You have gone deeper into graveyard recursion, so surviel fueling it may work but I recall being underwhelmed.

The second thing that sticks out to me is Fork effects. For 1 more mana you can run Reiterate with is infinite with various rituals, including Jeska's Will. I have never been impressed by forks in Zada because they're often redundant with another creature, but perhaps as outs to countermagic.

Another card that sticks out to me is Kuldotha Rebirth. I have never been impressed by this card because of the additional cost. It ended up being more situational than it looks. Devastating Summons is functionally similar and you don't have that many goblin tribal payoffs.

I think Magus of the Moon is better than Blood Moon here. This deck is very creature light and playing creature versions of cards is extra value with minimum card slots.

I would also consider running Ardent Elementalist as another infinite with Heat Shimmer with a ritual. Maybe over Krenko? I don't think Krenko has time to go off at the cEDH level unless you're comboing.

I think Zada and krarkashima are the decks to run Possibility Storm In cEDH. It really screws up decks that need to land precisely 1 card (thoracle) or specific interaction. I would consider it even outside a stax oriented list.

Overall, the first deck looks potent, but somewhat creature light. I suspect that it mulligans hard it get workable hands.

I honestly don't know how to interpret the polystax list. There are cards that you don't really want to flip out like Grafdigger's Cage or Chalice of the Void because they either stop your subsequent copies or you can't set it. There is infinite colorless mana, but I didn't see a way to use it. There's Null Rod Karn, but instead of Mycosynth Lattice to lock it's instead on The Immortal Sun? I feel like I am not familiar with the metagame that this is oriented to play against and can't give good feedback.

I think the second deck is trying to do too many things at once. Polymorph into kiki combo makes sense, but this deck excludes Krenko, Mob Boss or Conspicuous Snoop lines. Turning treasures into stax also makes sense, but I don't understand the chosen pieces. A thought may be to look into artifact token creators so you can polymorph creatures into stax.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Whipsaw
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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

As always -- excellent thoughts/feedback....thank you!

The storm list above is really a proto shell where I went through every competitively tagged Zada list on moxfield (15 or so), looked at several others across TappedOut that were competitive-ish (e.g. particularly TimmyT1000/Wedge's old DDB list and a few more), as well as your golden tablet here. Basically took all the super stormy lists, compared all the cards and then sorted in descending order by frequency of appearance. What ended up coming out was basically the most prevalent across all those Zada storm lists.

I purposely excluded all the zero drop critters b/c I don't think we really want to go to combat except as a complete failsafe whereas a fair amount of the lists that were 2+years old seemed to want to do as a normal operating plan. The sideboard is basically all of the unique cards and anything that showed up less than 50% of time across all the various decks I sifted through. Definitely some gems there that need to be on the mainboard for sure.
Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
On the first deck, there are some cards that I never really got to work well in my experience. Dragon's Rage Channeler is low MV but ends up being functionally the same as 2 creatures. You have gone deeper into graveyard recursion, so surveil fueling it may work but I recall being underwhelmed.
I think this is a fair point...I'm personally not a huge fan of DRC even though many in the CEDH community view it as Breach fuel/rummaging as we storm off. I'd personally rather have something else here
Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
he second thing that sticks out to me is Fork effects. For 1 more mana you can run Reiterate with is infinite with various rituals, including Jeska's Will. I have never been impressed by forks in Zada because they're often redundant with another creature, but perhaps as outs to countermagic.
We discussed Fork as sort of a multi-tool....it can be everything from a counterspell, to a ritual doubler in a pinch, or opportunistic intra-stack removal by copying something that we normally don't have access to such as Abrupt Decay as someone else tries to lift an opposing stax piece. Your point about Reiterate is very valid and that is on the sideboard.
Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
Another card that sticks out to me is Kuldotha Rebirth. I have never been impressed by this card because of the additional cost. It ended up being more situational than it looks. Devastating Summons is functionally similar and you don't have that many goblin tribal payoffs.
This is 100% anecdotal, but I've generally had great success with Kuldotha. I'll generally sac a tapped Vault to it (never once have I untapped it in a game) or a spare treasure given how many this deck can spew out in certain situations. If it required a creature sac, it would prob be more optimal though since if you're running on the razor's edge mana wise, losing a treasure for 2 red isn't a great trade.
Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
I think Magus of the Moon is better than Blood Moon here. This deck is very creature light and playing creature versions of cards is extra value with minimum card slots.
I'm in the Magus camp instead of Blood Moon (more bodies, same effect plus less prevalence of spells that can counter creatures), but the general consensus is avoiding stuff that dies to a board wipe. I'm generally of the view that if we get board wiped the game is likely over for us in a cedh matchup given speed to rebuild, but consensus view was to stick with Blood Moon.
Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
I would also consider running Ardent Elementalist as another infinite with Heat Shimmer with a ritual. Maybe over Krenko? I don't think Krenko has time to go off at the cEDH level unless you're comboing.
I'm against the goblin gangsta as well -- if he actually sticks he's likely to get a single activation at most before the Swords to Plowshares shows up and plus we need to give him haste immediately. If he sticks for a couple of turn cycles its just win more (which is fine, but probably not optimal for pieces that need to get us over the hump). Ardent Elementalist is actually a great idea....forgot about this one!! Going to bring it up tonight with the hive mind.
Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
I think Zada and krarkashima are the decks to run Possibility Storm In cEDH. It really screws up decks that need to land precisely 1 card (thoracle) or specific interaction. I would consider it even outside a stax oriented list.
Agree -- i'm embarrassed to admit this but I remember it being in your list and I don't think I fully grasped/contemplated the ceiling on its disruption capabilities. We don't really care if Zada is out b/c we get n-1 copies of whatever. The other strategies could be absolutely crippled off losing something critical to this. Wonderful point -- another thing to bring up with the group.
Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
I honestly don't know how to interpret the polystax list. There are cards that you don't really want to flip out like Grafdigger's Cage or Chalice of the Void because they either stop your subsequent copies or you can't set it. There is infinite colorless mana, but I didn't see a way to use it. There's Null Rod Karn, but instead of Mycosynth Lattice to lock it's instead on The Immortal Sun? I feel like I am not familiar with the metagame that this is oriented to play against and can't give good feedback.

I think the second deck is trying to do too many things at once. Polymorph into kiki combo makes sense, but this deck excludes Krenko, Mob Boss or Conspicuous Snoop lines. Turning treasures into stax also makes sense, but I don't understand the chosen pieces. A thought may be to look into artifact token creators so you can polymorph creatures into stax.
I'm trying to get the polystax brewer to write out all the various lines he is contemplating b/c frankly I'm not that smart and some of the cards seem out of place. Hopefully once he puts it all down in one place I can better understand the moving parts. Polymorphing the board via Zada makes sense at a high level but some of the stax choices, I agree, don't necessarily seem optimal. That said, I believe he plays cedh almost exclusively, so maybe his tuning to the meta is calibrated super finely....unclear at the moment. Once he gets the combo lines out, I'm going to sleeve it up alongside whatever storm version comes out of this endeavor and see how they play.

What do you think of Fury Storm as a storm enabling combo piece once Zada lands? Could pair with a lot of stuff given the infinite loop to make a bazillion treasures or bazillion critters and function as sort of a backup dualcaster in a pinch.

Thanks again for your feedback!

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