Zada: Grinding up an Arcane Storm

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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Scout_800 wrote:
2 years ago
Hey everyone, I really want to run Jeska's Will in my list.
Convince otherwise… I mean it makes mana and gives us card to cast,
What's not to like?
Nah, I'm not going to convince you otherwise. If you want to, you should try it out. You'll almost certainly want to cast it after Zada is on the field, but hopefully an opponent regularly has a full grip.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

I agree that there is nothing wrong with Jeska's Will, because it does provided both key resources for any storm based deck: cards and mana. It likely performs well as the first spell cast in a storm turn, making mana equal to opponent's hand and drawing 3 cards. Ideally, this helps set up larger draw effect from the cantrips. Realistically, we can compare Jwill to the rituals and to the cantrips/other draw.

As a ritual, it's one of the higher MV options for a non-engine mana source such as Storm-Kiln Artist or Runaway Steam-Kin. It also checks very different locations for the amount of mana generated, being entirely opponent-sided. There is nothing wrong with this, but mid-storm something like Battle Hymn will likely make more mana at lower MV. So the ritual performs best before critical mass of creatures is reached.

As a draw effect, it's fewer cards per mana than Boiling Blood in most cases once Zada is in play. It will only ever get 3 cards, but it does get those cards without the potential situation where Zada is in play with no other creatures, after a Pyroclasm or something.

Without testing it, I suspect that Jwill could outperform some of the ritual effects by adding on some small amount of draw, but only outperforms a cantrip if you've been board wiped or otherwise have a low creature count. I might try testing it over something like Kari Zev's Expertise, at similar costs but providing mana instead of free spells to increase flexibility? I don't think that I would personally test it over a cantrip. Lastly, it will have a somewhat high bar to reach for me because exiling an arcane spell that I want to splice instead of drawing it is always painful.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

What's up everybody, with kamigawa 'round the corner, what are we hoping to get for Zada?

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

While more Expedite functional reprints are the best cards for Zada, more arcane "carriers" such such as Into the Fray would be great. I'm holding out hope for just more arcane spells in general. This is realistically the only set in a decade where I might have this hope, considering the setting.

If I get a wishlist, I'd like *good* arcane spells, like a printing of Path of Anger's Flame that can splice or an arcane version of Rite of Flame.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

I think that or a card like a loot +1/+0 and first strike that is arcane would also be up there for me. Honestly im sad we are likely never seeing arcane again because i think it is such a cool mechanic if not locked into a single block
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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

Hey everyone,
How relevant could FORK be in our deck?

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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

Or reverberate…

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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Scout_800 wrote:
2 years ago
Hey everyone,
How relevant could FORK be in our deck?
Scout_800 wrote:
2 years ago
Or reverberate…
I'd say only as a protective trick (similar to Deflecting Swat). It'd mostly be used to copy a spell that is not targeting Zada to get extra value - and in that sense it could be quite meta-dependent on what spells of your opponents you might want to copy (draw spells, counters, etc). If you use it to copy something that Zada will copy, it'll only get you a single extra copy - Zada isn't going to do another round of copying to creatures with it.
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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

That's right! They won't trigger ZADA.
Why is PATH OF ANGER'S FLAME in the list? We can't splice it to another arcane spell…is it just there to pump all creatures? Am I missing something?

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

Fork effects don't trigger Zada, so they're generally not great.

Path of Anger's Flame is a pet arcane card of mine for large damage numbers. If you splice onto it, for example with Overblaze, then it now targets a creature. This means that Zada can radiate it and results in each of your creatures generating a Path of Anger's Flame. Effectively, each creature gets +2/+0 for each creature, resulting in power equal to twice the creature count squared. So ten 1/1 creatures with a spliced overblaze on PoAF is each creature gets +200/+0 and deals 402 damage. 100 creatures is 40002 damage per creature, and so on.

Basically, in my effort for maximum possible non-infinite damage, Heat Shimmer until I can't, then Path of Anger's Flame and Overblaze until I can't represents [2^(N overblaze)]*[2^(N heat shimmer)]^2 damage.

If you're running infinites, or don't want to spend an hour calculating damage then Path of Anger's Flame is almost certainly winmore.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

I thought the spell (spliced or not)had to ONLY target zada…path of anger's flame effect all creatures. Doesn't it?

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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Scout_800 wrote:
2 years ago
I thought the spell (spliced or not)had to ONLY target zada…path of anger's flame effect all creatures. Doesn't it?
Here's the way Splice onto Arcane works:
  • you start casting an Path of Anger's Flame
  • as you are casting it is when you choose any Splice onto Arcane cards from your hand and reveal them (Overblaze in this case, which has a single target) and their splice costs will get added to the total mana cost for the spell
  • then the spell on the stack will have the combined text of the original and the ones spliced on and will read:
    Creatures you control get +2/+0 until end of turn.

    Each time target permanent would deal damage to a permanent or player this turn, it deals double that damage to that permanent or player instead.
  • then you pick targets since that text specifies a single target, and you target Zada, pay mana, etc. and you're done casting the spell
  • then Zada triggers because you cast a spell that only targets her, and the trigger when resolving will copy that whole spell for as many other creatures as you control where each is targeted by a copy
  • so each creature's copy of the spell gives all your creatures +2/+0 from the first effect, and the second effect gives that creature damage-doubling.
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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

Super, now I understand. I just thought path of anger's flame targeted all creatures, therefore couldn't be used on Zada
Thank you for explaining in such detail.
Cheers mate!

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Post by Scout_800 » 2 years ago

So? Did we get any new toys from Kamigawa?
Fable of the Mirror-Breaker?
Sokenzan, crucible of defiance?

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

Scout_800 wrote:
2 years ago
So? Did we get any new toys from Kamigawa?
Fable of the Mirror-Breaker?
Sokenzan, crucible of defiance?
I think that Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance is basically a "free" addition because it doesn't have a downside over a basic mountain, and making tokens matters. I think that Fable of the Mirror-Breaker is too much mana and takes too many turns.

If I had to pick a nonland card that I am most likely to add, it would be Mirror Box. Being able to keep copies of Birgi, God of Storytelling or Krark, the Thumbless from our Heat Shimmers is a nice multiplication effect. Even that is probably too situational, if I'm honest. Zada didn't get much this set.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

Alright, I found the Zada card: Smoke Spirits' Aid is a great single target card for 2 MV that turn all creatures into Mogg Fanatic that can make creatures into mana generation. This is definitely a fun card for Zada.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by indemidelo » 2 years ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
2 years ago
Alright, I found the Zada card: Smoke Spirits' Aid is a great single target card for 2 MV that turn all creatures into Mogg Fanatic that can make creatures into mana generation. This is definitely a fun card for Zada.
Actually, the creatures only deal damage to their controller. So not quite Mogg Fanatic (sadly)

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

indemidelo wrote:
2 years ago
Crazy Monkey wrote:
2 years ago
Alright, I found the Zada card: Smoke Spirits' Aid is a great single target card for 2 MV that turn all creatures into Mogg Fanatic that can make creatures into mana generation. This is definitely a fun card for Zada.
Actually, the creatures only deal damage to their controller. So not quite Mogg Fanatic (sadly)
This is almost as bad a misread as I had on Hate Mirage. Although, in this case it would result in dying to self inflicted damage. Thanks for the correction.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by x1372 » 2 years ago

It's possible that Zada could get some use out of Invoke Calamity but that's probably more of a "win more" card or a way to take a second crack at having zada go off on a later turn. Not 100% sure it's good enough for the deck, and if so, what to slot out for it.

Also, I'm sure you haven't been focusing TOO much on the budget decklist, but if you're looking for other "red mana" ramp cards, Ornithopter of Paradise is another cheap and useful creature that can tap for red.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

I didn't consider Invoke Calamity for one main reason: the average MV of instants/sorceries. My average MV for instants and sorceries is around 1.9, so unless it's used for recursion, it ends up being overcosted. That said, in the context of recursion, calamity is lower total mana than something like Past in Flames for the first two spells, but it has a lower ceiling. It's probably with testing on that slot. The other interesting item is that quadruple [r is a bit odd between the colorless mana ramp and cost reduction. If mana is from rituals, treasure, or treasonous ogre then this doesn't change anything, but it's somewhat funny that monored might have difficulty with the cost in some situations.

I've been using Ornithopter of Paradise for pauper decks, and it should be similar or higher listing than Iron Myr in budget listings as well.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

I can't describe how much I love this writeup...thoughtful, examines lots of alternate choices/possibilities, and very thorough!! Thank you for taking the time to do this...I've been wanting to build a Zada deck since I first found her in a bargain bin a few years ago and this really helped me gel my strategy and card choices.

One quick question re; losing mana b/w steps....have you ever looked at Leyline Tyrant as a potential way around it? Obviously expensive (4 CMC) but pretty big body (4/4) with evasion that lets you keep all that ritual-ed mana b/w phases. (sorry missed page 4 of the discussion talking about this one!!}

One final ask -- could someone please walk me through the Ardent Elementalist + Heat Shimmer/Twinflame infinite combo that has been referenced a few times? I'm terrible at stack minutiae/visualization and would appreciate the guidance. Thanks!

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Post by lyonhaert » 1 year ago

Whipsaw wrote:
1 year ago
One final ask -- could someone please walk me through the Ardent Elementalist + Heat Shimmer/Twinflame infinite combo that has been referenced a few times? I'm terrible at stack minutiae/visualization and would appreciate the guidance. Thanks!
So let's say you have Ardent Elementalist already on the field with Zada and a Priest of Urabrask for mana production, Twinflame is in your hand, and Heat Shimmer is in your graveyard for some reason.
  • You cast Twinflame targeting Zada. Her trigger goes on the stack, resolves, and makes copies of Twinflame that each target the other creatures you have. The original Twinflame targeting Zada is still on the stack, not in the graveyard yet.
  • You've stacked them to first resolve making a copy of Priest. When that spell is done resolving, triggers created during it, like his ETB, can go on the stack. You resolve that and get rrr.
  • Next to resolve is making a copy of Elementalist. That all happens and you target Heat Shimmer and get it back to your hand.
  • Last you finally resolve the Twinflame targeting Zada, making a copy of her, doing the legend rule thing when SBAs next get checked, one Zada left again. But now when Twinflame is done resolving it's put into your graveyard.
Now you have 3 mana to cast Heat Shimmer from hand, do the same thing again except getting Twinflame back to hand and after finally resolving the Heat Shimmer targeting Zada, it will be in the graveyard again.
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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

Super helpful -- thank you!

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Post by Whipsaw » 1 year ago

Since y'all are the GOATs on this deck (after reading through about 20 other primers of varying quality)...what would you change ito bring it closer to fringe cEDH if budget/non-infinite restrictions weren't involved?

I've been goldfishing it for the last few days and I've been trying to think about ways to speed it up or make it incrementally more consistent or more adaptable if Zada has been hated into oblivion. I think i've read through all the pages on this post with all your prior analysis but any incremental thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

I think that the largest issue in making Zada cEDH fringe viable is that she is very much the lynchpin for the deck to function. Without Zada, expedite is mediocre no matter how many creatures you control. This means that the game plan to power up is to protect Zada, through a variety of methods, whether they are proactive (Possibility Storm) or reactive (Deflecting Swat). All the available redundant effects cost more mana, so those are a bit painful to include as well. Add on top of this that a storm plan requires certain creature count thresholds for a reasonable probability of finding a certain critical mass of specific cards and there aren't that many available deck slots to feel confident in having protection in the opening hand and operate as a storm deck. This is before considering any attempt to outrace a turbo deck or a turn 1/2 thoracle plan.

If you sacrifice the storm plan and instead try to assemble 2-3 card combos on the back of a heavy draw engine, the threat profile of the deck changes. If your plan is something like dualcaster, breach, or even maybe Godo or reiterate combo lines, then the deck may be able to work through a more stax-heavy meta and drawing 5 or 6 cards at instant speed. The difficulty is that this type of build would want to be much more interactive, and that would also take some deck slots. Eventually, there aren't enough creatures in play to benefit from playing Zada and the cantrips only draw 3 cards. This ends up being sort of a midrange Zada build, and it didn't seem to me that monored could really support the amount of interaction that would be necessary.

Take the following with a grain of salt, because I don't get into the mindset of building at the cEDH power level often. In fact, the deck that I play into cEDH games is exclusively my Unesh deck: tribal sphinx storm.

As much as I enjoy Zada, I believe that the most competitively viable version is to go to General Tazri (to tutor Zada) and build around mana dorks and hatebears, with a couple of combo finishers. Another member of Nexus has a build along this line that I link in the first post. By playing mana producing creatures, you alleviate the "dead cards" that exist only to make tokens. By adding blue, green, and black there are more options for powerful protection and disruption. By adding white, you can play more creatures that further disrupt the opponents. From here, having access to the best 1 MV cantrips across all colors, you still have 5-10 slots for wincons: from Haze of Rage to Thassa's Oracle. You could even run a food chain combo or infinite ally triggers. I think that this would be the most effective way to overlap cards into deck slots and maintain the critical mass needed for a storm build. Having a larger focus on disruptive stax creatures could be a more midrange version.

I owe a set update for New Capenna, which I hope to get to soon. I have been testing Audacious Swap as another way to turn tokens into cards and am not certain if I am happy with it. Being able to turn tokens into spells that go on top of the next swap copies and can radiate off Zada has been hilarious, but losing my board for 8 lands and no cards to rebuild is a painful way to remove my own commander.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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