[MCD] Wishes

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 2 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
I don't think the Conspiracy stuff would work regardless. Those don't work in Legacy either, which has wishes and sideboards.
But you could easily have something that exiled 3 random creatures from outside the game (possibly from a subset of types like lessons) or whatever.

Bottom line, I get outside the game as a cool and useful mechanic :)

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4536
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
2 years ago
I don't think the Conspiracy stuff would work regardless. Those don't work in Legacy either, which has wishes and sideboards.
Not literally those designs of course since you didn't "draft" cards outside a limited event, but a design that references cards in the sideboard. I assume it could be done either "when this card etbs" or like the chimera before the game starts - or maybe it only works if it's your commander. Afaik there aren't any cards currently like this, but I don't know why it couldn't work conceptually.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
BeneTleilax
Posts: 1330
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
But you could easily have something that exiled 3 random creatures from outside the game (possibly from a subset of types like lessons) or whatever.
Ah, fair enough.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4536
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, I definitey see the design space as being the biggest pro. I am not blind to the cool side of wishes (and having cards just work as intended, as a side-effect).

It's kinda how I feel about Hybrid cards too, that the rules unnecessarily restrict design space.

But sadly I think, ultimately, that a wishboard mechanism is going to prove 1) unnecessarily restrictive to support all the mechanical options, and 2) problematically good and homogenizing if not restricted.

Think about how the concept of a wishboard just kills it after time. A 3 wish wishboard basically makes it impossible to combine more than one of the cards in a deck, and yet if you go to 7 or 10, things become so good they're autoinclude level. You can't combine even one wish card and a lesson card and Lessons are unnecessarily garbage at 3 card wishboards.

Honestly enabling lessons is more enticing to me than wishes for some reason.

Maybe you could just ban every overly good wish effect with extreme prejudice. I don't have any issue with Golden Wish getting any card you want including the kitchen sink, because the mana cost is just too extreme. If somoene said "my enchantment deck plays golden wish so I can get random cool enchantments" I would be cool with it.

But "my goodstuff deck plays Burning Wish so I can have an answer to every situation at a bargain mana cost" is just not OK.
I think in the 3-wishes model basically everything is safe. Burning is arguably the strongest and, as per my previous example, it's probably gonna end up something like a janky austere command.

Increasing the number makes it more likely you'd need to ban some stuff, but personally that seems fine to me since they're defacto banned anyway.

The exception is stuff like Karn where even having a 1-card wishboard would make him a lot better. But in terms of tradeoffs, I've never liked karn that much so I'm fine with it if people think he has to go.

I do think you're excessively pessimistic about lessons. You couldn't run a bunch of learn in one deck ofc, but as a 1 or 2 off I think some learn cards would still be pretty playable with a 3-card wishboard. As I think I illustrated ad nauseum, there aren't a lot of flexibility in targets, it's basically removal spells, draw spells, and token making spell, so just pick the best of each and you'll be good 90% of the time.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 2 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
Sinis wrote:
2 years ago
duducrash wrote:
2 years ago
Thing is, no ammount of online discourse advances the debate.
100%.

I'm in the pro-wish camp, but everything I've ever seen from the RC has strongly suggested that Wishes should never become legal,
My interactions with the RC on discord make me think, that if you can find a whole new argument they will be willing to listen and start talking about wishes in a serious manner, but since no one has come up with a whole new argument, there's no point.
There's some in the OP, like being stuck in the past, but Sheldon has made the best new argument yet.
You can't ban a mechanic. That makes no sense at all. — Sheldon Menery, The Spike Feeders, Episode 14, 28:05
I listened to every, single soundbite that I could find of the RC. There are many more statements the RC has made in recent years that inadvertently crap on Rule 10. In an early draft, the OP even had a spoiler full of them, but I excluded it because it came across as being a trap or as being against them instead of being for WISHING.. Even though my intention was only to highlight their first-rate reasoning for their decisions, and then ask why it literally applies to everything in Commander except WISHING.
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
I think in the 3-wishes model basically everything is safe. Burning is arguably the strongest and, as per my previous example, it's probably gonna end up something like a janky austere command.

Increasing the number makes it more likely you'd need to ban some stuff, but personally that seems fine to me since they're defacto banned anyway.

The exception is stuff like Karn where even having a 1-card wishboard would make him a lot better. But in terms of tradeoffs, I've never liked karn that much so I'm fine with it if people think he has to go.

I do think you're excessively pessimistic about lessons. You couldn't run a bunch of learn in one deck ofc, but as a 1 or 2 off I think some learn cards would still be pretty playable with a 3-card wishboard. As I think I illustrated ad nauseum, there aren't a lot of flexibility in targets, it's basically removal spells, draw spells, and token making spell, so just pick the best of each and you'll be good 90% of the time.
I think the issue with it is that the design space shrinks every time a new mechanic comes out. Today you get Wishes or Lessons, next set they have Larmgarblers and next set they have Whimmledinks and then you have to pick exactly one outside the game mechanic that can be marginally useful.

The problem I see with the 'mechanic availability' argument is that it ceases to add variety when you only get one and every time they add one you can't use it.

I think it'd place a lot of pressure on things to have to be better than Wishes too because no one would play them if they weren't stringer than the best current wish effects.
Legend wrote:
2 years ago
You can't ban a mechanic. That makes no sense at all. — Sheldon Menery, The Spike Feeders, Episode 14, 28:05
A sideboard is not a mechanic in the same sense. That's the distinction they make is that there are no sideboards and that they have done unlimited wishing and it was a failure. Only competitive formats have sideboards.

onering
Posts: 1226
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by onering » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I think the issue with it is that the design space shrinks every time a new mechanic comes out. Today you get Wishes or Lessons, next set they have Larmgarblers and next set they have Whimmledinks and then you have to pick exactly one outside the game mechanic that can be marginally useful.

The problem I see with the 'mechanic availability' argument is that it ceases to add variety when you only get one and every time they add one you can't use it.
Agree totally. This is why I suggested a lesson board. I think having a wishboard for open ended things, cards that look "outside the game" for something other than a specific type of card that "lives" outside the game, and a separate, potentially unlimited, board for cards specifically designed to start outside the game like Lessons or Companion as it works in other formats, is a good idea. I feel like this is a design space that will continue to expand and its the only real knock against a small wish board, but unfortunately keeping normal wishes contained is at odds with allowing these sorts of mechanics to thrive.

It seems like the command zone really should serve as a catch all for these outside the game mechanics. Companion clearly works fine there, Lessons would as well. But that's a design flaw on wizards part.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 2 years ago

onering wrote:
2 years ago
Agree totally. This is why I suggested a lesson board. I think having a wishboard for open ended things, cards that look "outside the game" for something other than a specific type of card that "lives" outside the game, and a separate, potentially unlimited, board for cards specifically designed to start outside the game like Lessons or Companion as it works in other formats, is a good idea. I feel like this is a design space that will continue to expand and its the only real knock against a small wish board, but unfortunately keeping normal wishes contained is at odds with allowing these sorts of mechanics to thrive.

It seems like the command zone really should serve as a catch all for these outside the game mechanics. Companion clearly works fine there, Lessons would as well. But that's a design flaw on wizards part.
Yeah honestly logistics are the biggest hurdle to any of this crap. It becomes really onerous to maintain wishboards, companionboards, lessonboards, whimmledinkboards and figure out 1) which things go in which board, 2) how many is too many for each one, 3) which effects are too good and so on and forth.

My general opinion on Lessons is that I would not give two %$#% if someone showed up with their binder full of lessons because none of them were insanely strong and the learn spells were not super strong either. IF someone had a lesson deck that just played a crapload of them it'd b fine, especially if they were fast about it.

Frustratingly it's not just wishes that are problematic. Even if you ban Mastermind's Acquisition, Wish, Burning Wish and Living Wish (which I still maintain is probably the most problematic one because it's green) and said:

--Wishing is now free to move about the cabin, please be not a dink about it
--Additionally, all other "outside the game" mechanics work as described

That might just be fine! Until they print Humdingers and they're too strong and now a bunch of them need to be banned and gaaaaah it's a logistical nightmare. Every new set, every new mechanic they have to possibly ban a bunch of the cards.

I realize that you could take this line of reasoning as a slippery slope argument, but I think it's more about the difficulty in logistics.

There're also pretty significant player logistics problems if everyone needs a binder full of crap to search for with these effects. It really busts the "100 card" format wide open.

So then you roll it back and say okay it's a 3 card wishboard, no a 5 card wishboard, and then maybe we unban the really good wishes.

It's really not a simple thing to implement well.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4536
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
--Wishing is now free to move about the cabin, please be not a dink about it
lol i like this rule, we should write rules like this instead of magic legalese.
That might just be fine! Until they print Humdingers and they're too strong and now a bunch of them need to be banned and gaaaaah it's a logistical nightmare. Every new set, every new mechanic they have to possibly ban a bunch of the cards.
I don't really think that's fair. They can always print a broken new mechanic that doesn't involve outside the game. Besides, for any given broken mechanic, there's usually a couple real problems and then a bunch of stuff that's basically fine, so you're not usually in a position of "ban every card with that mechanic".
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 2 years ago

The difference with those other mechanics is you don't have a custom tailored rule they all share.

Of course Commander has complexity from the multiplayer nature, singleton, color identity and multiplayer that make managing the card pool difficult. But adding a new rule that a huge class of cards share makes managing that significantly more complex.

And it's not the same rule as competitive magic so wizards won't do any of the heavy lifting.

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4536
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Considering that commander is arguably magics flagship format, I think they'll keep it in mind, whatever the rule is.

On the other hand, when wotc designs for commander we tend to end up with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim so maybe that's not a good argument =\
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
Sinis wrote:
2 years ago
100%.

I'm in the pro-wish camp, but everything I've ever seen from the RC has strongly suggested that Wishes should never become legal,
My interactions with the RC on discord make me think, that if you can find a whole new argument they will be willing to listen and start talking about wishes in a serious manner, but since no one has come up with a whole new argument, there's no point.
There's some in the OP, like being stuck in the past, but Sheldon has made the best new argument yet.
You can't ban a mechanic. That makes no sense at all. — Sheldon Menery, The Spike Feeders, Episode 14, 28:05
I listened to every, single soundbite that I could find of the RC. There are many more statements the RC has made in recent years that inadvertently crap on Rule 10. In an early draft, the OP even had a spoiler full of them, but I excluded it because it came across as being a trap or as being against them instead of being for WISHING.. Even though my intention was only to highlight their first-rate reasoning for their decisions, and then ask why it literally applies to everything in Commander except WISHING.
Again I ask, have you gotten on the discord and discussed this?
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Legend wrote:
2 years ago
You can't ban a mechanic. That makes no sense at all. — Sheldon Menery, The Spike Feeders, Episode 14, 28:05
A sideboard is not a mechanic in the same sense. That's the distinction they make is that there are no sideboards and that they have done unlimited wishing and it was a failure. Only competitive formats have sideboards.
The sideboard argument is dead thanks to Companion and Venture. Spoiler 6 of OP:
Legend wrote:
4 years ago
The functionality of WISHING in Commander is not related to sanctioning and sideboards. It's due to Rule 10 and solely to Rule 10, made apparent by the functionality of Companion and Venture.
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Every new set, every new mechanic they have to possibly ban a bunch of the cards.
Which is always a possibility, but I think it's unlikely. And that's kind of the point here anyways. Each WISH should be subject to the same criteria as every other card. Spoiler 9 of the OP:
Legend wrote:
4 years ago
We don't compare a card to other cards to decide if we're going to ban it. We compare a card to itself. - Sheldon Menery
Issues that Burning Wish might pose are no reason for Coax from the Blind Eternities or Hunt for Specimens to not function, especially while Venture and Companion do function. Just as it would make no sense to ban Magistrate's Scepter because of Time Vault, especially while Mindslaver isn't banned.
The idea that the ban list is a sacred cow is so passé. The ban list needs to be as long as it needs to be, whether that's 145 cards like it is now, or 245 cards. And besides, whenever Wizards makes a broken "outside the game" mechanic, they just errata it to suck so bad that it doesn't need to be banned.
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
But adding a new rule that a huge class of cards share makes managing that significantly more complex.
I couldn't agree more. *cough* Rule 10 *cough* :P
Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
Again I ask, have you gotten on the discord and discussed this?
No. Currently, I don't have the time. I barely had time for this. And I really don't care for discords, TBH. They're messy, IMO. I also feel like that would be like going into the proverbial dragon's lair, where I'd have to spend countless hours - again - hacking and slashing my way through undead arguments to get to the dragon(s). (Sorry for what seems like an out-of-nowhere analogy, I've been obsessing over D&D with what little free time I've had lately.) I dunno, maybe one day I will.
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

onering
Posts: 1226
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by onering » 2 years ago

Bro, again, companion and venture didn't do anything to the outside the game argument. Companion was specifically changed to use the command zone in commander BECAUSE it wouldn't work otherwise. Venture has nothing to do with bringing in cards from outside the game. The dungeon "cards" are just trackers. You don't even need a copy of any dungeon to use them in sanctioned tournaments in Standard, modern, etc. Neither of those mechanics do anything to further your argument, no matter how many times you repeat it. You have to actually deal in facts and not just assertions if you want people to take your argument seriously.

User avatar
tstorm823
Knowledge Pool
Posts: 1041
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him
Location: York, PA

Post by tstorm823 » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
The sideboard argument is dead thanks to Companion and Venture.
Don't do that. You can't kill an argument. If you feel you've acknowledged something, say so in that way, or ignore it, don't declare victory.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
Again I ask, have you gotten on the discord and discussed this?
No. Currently, I don't have the time. I barely had time for this. And I really don't care for discords, TBH. They're messy, IMO. I also feel like that would be like going into the proverbial dragon's lair, where I'd have to spend countless hours - again - hacking and slashing my way through undead arguments to get to the dragon(s). (Sorry for what seems like an out-of-nowhere analogy, I've been obsessing over D&D with what little free time I've had lately.) I dunno, maybe one day I will.
so, you're just using this thread to vent gotcha
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

User avatar
DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
Posts: 4536
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

onering wrote:
2 years ago
Companion was specifically changed to use the command zone in commander BECAUSE it wouldn't work otherwise.
Wait, is that true? I don't see anything corroborating that. I think it's in the "not in the game" zone just like all your other cards, it's just that the modified rule 10 allows it to bring itself into the game (as compared to wishes which bring other cards and thus blocked by rule 10).
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

User avatar
Jemolk
Compulsive Jank Builder
Posts: 418
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
so, you're just using this thread to vent gotcha
You know that's reductionist and uncharitable. Forums are far easier to have long-form conversations in, especially because they allow it to be asynchronous, for one. Wanting to persuade the RC and being prepared to jump into their discord right this very instant are not the same thing. No need to assume the worst of people.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

Jemolk wrote:
2 years ago
Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
so, you're just using this thread to vent gotcha
You know that's reductionist and uncharitable. Forums are far easier to have long-form conversations in, especially because they allow it to be asynchronous, for one. Wanting to persuade the RC and being prepared to jump into their discord right this very instant are not the same thing. No need to assume the worst of people.
The thread was started two years ago and I've pointed out not just in this thread, but others that the best way to discuss anything with the RC/CAG is via the discord or twitter. As it is this thread is basically a player attempting to talk his group into letting him play wishes.

Unless Legend or someone else who wants the change has both the time and the willingness to jump into the discord, nothing is going to change at large.
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

Sharpened
Posts: 193
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Sharpened » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
onering wrote:
2 years ago
Companion was specifically changed to use the command zone in commander BECAUSE it wouldn't work otherwise.
Wait, is that true? I don't see anything corroborating that. I think it's in the "not in the game" zone just like all your other cards, it's just that the modified rule 10 allows it to bring itself into the game (as compared to wishes which bring other cards and thus blocked by rule 10).
No. The Companion rule does not specifically use the Command Zone: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2020 ... es-update/

It doesn't really matter where it is though.

User avatar
Jemolk
Compulsive Jank Builder
Posts: 418
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Jemolk » 2 years ago

Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
The thread was started two years ago and I've pointed out not just in this thread, but others that the best way to discuss anything with the RC/CAG is via the discord or twitter. As it is this thread is basically a player attempting to talk his group into letting him play wishes.

Unless Legend or someone else who wants the change has both the time and the willingness to jump into the discord, nothing is going to change at large.
If we're not getting anywhere here, why bother exhausting ourselves hashing out the same fruitless arguments yet again in a worse format? What's wrong with honing arguments in a place where that works better? What's wrong with trying to convince enough people that it would make a meaningful statement to the RC before actually approaching them?
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

Jemolk wrote:
2 years ago
Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
The thread was started two years ago and I've pointed out not just in this thread, but others that the best way to discuss anything with the RC/CAG is via the discord or twitter. As it is this thread is basically a player attempting to talk his group into letting him play wishes.

Unless Legend or someone else who wants the change has both the time and the willingness to jump into the discord, nothing is going to change at large.
If we're not getting anywhere here, why bother exhausting ourselves hashing out the same fruitless arguments yet again in a worse format? What's wrong with honing arguments in a place where that works better? What's wrong with trying to convince enough people that it would make a meaningful statement to the RC before actually approaching them?
And exactly how long is it going to take? As I've repeatedly pointed out Sheldon and co are willing to listen if there's a new argument. Legend says he has one but has neither the time nor the willingness to bring it to the actual RC. So, I point to my statement about this basically being a guy attempting to convince his local group and nothing more than that. And last I check the last time a member of the RC took part in this discussion was also roughly two years ago. Basically, this forum is a very very small group compared to the locations where the RC do post and interact. So, at some point either legend or something else is actually going to have to "rehash" the same arguments.

For good or bad, 99% of actual discussion with the RC and CAG has moved to discord and you either get used to it and are willing to deal with its shortcomings or you don't and thus not intact with the rule makers.
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

User avatar
BeneTleilax
Posts: 1330
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

If y'all really want to bring a cogent group over to petition the RC, you'd likely do better to convince the limited wishboard centrists to support unlimited wishes, rather than arguing with those who don't want them in any form.

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 2 years ago

This is why Spoiler 2 in the OP ends with "With any luck, this information may clear up any general rules misunderstandings and misinformation that may be floating around.". Are people dismissing the OP because they enjoy death spiral arguments or because they still have PTSD from the original iteration? I assure you all that the new OP is more thoughtful in every regard.
onering wrote:
2 years ago
Bro, again, companion and venture didn't do anything to the outside the game argument. Companion was specifically changed to use the command zone in commander BECAUSE it wouldn't work otherwise. Venture has nothing to do with bringing in cards from outside the game.
One of us has been misinformed. I base all of my replies on the OP for which I got the information from the Comprehensive Rules and other official sources like Oracle and the PTR.
onering wrote:
2 years ago
You have to actually deal in facts and not just assertions if you want people to take your argument seriously.
My argument is this:
You can't ban a mechanic. That makes no sense at all. — Sheldon Menery, The Spike Feeders, Episode 14, 28:05
All major concerns about WISHING in Commander can be traced back to either rules or etiquette. The first of which is solved by comprehensive rules 101.1, 103.2, 108.3b, and 903.10 and the Oracle rule. The second of which is solved by the Commander Philosophy Document, the social contract, and the criteria for banning – namely, color-hosers and select WISHES as needed.

PRACTICE: Rule 10 is the only reason WISHING doesn't function in Commander. There is no longer a need for a WISH rule because WISHING in Commander is now thoroughly supported by existing comprehensive and Oracle rules.

PHILOSOPHY: WISHING aligns with the Commander Philosophy Document and with philosophical statements about Commander made elsewhere by RC members.

PROTOCOL: As with all etiquette in Commander, WISHING should be settled by the social contract both "before and during games" (Sheldon).

PROBLEMS: Each WISH should be subject to the same criteria for banning as all other cards. Whatever issues Karn, the Great Creator might pose is no reason for Research // Development or Study Break to not function.
Whatever evidence may have existed from 2002 is 100% utterly meaningless in 202[2]. – DirkGently
The RC's response to WISHING during the formative and early years of Commander was entirely justified because WISHING was indeed a debacle by no fault of their own. Perhaps it was even justified up to 5 years ago, but with all due respect, it just isn't justified today. The view that WISHING is problematic has become petrified, frozen in time, dated, pertinent only in a bygone era, and a little insensitive to what's happening in Magic now despite the streamlining of the rules, despite instant global access to those rules, despite Wizard's obvious intent to make WISHING a normal part of the game, and despite the maturation of the Magic community as a whole regarding both acumen and peer consideration.

Five years ago, even the RC believed that the stuff people would do with Painter's Servant would "far outweigh the cool stuff they'd do with it" until they realized that cards like Iona are the real problem. (Sheldon Menery – Commanderin' MTG Podcast E013, 34:00) But now look where we are. The same thing can – and should – happen with WISHING.
tstorm823 wrote:
2 years ago
Legend wrote:
2 years ago
The sideboard argument is dead thanks to Companion and Venture.
Don't do that. You can't kill an argument. If you feel you've acknowledged something, say so in that way, or ignore it, don't declare victory.
Excuse me, but arguments can be killed. The logic of the RC for Rule 10 was never "because sideboards" anyways, it was "we decided that outside the game containing nothing was the cleanest solution". But now, outside the game in Commander always contains three Dungeons and may contain up to one qualifying card with Companion. That isn't nothing. Therefore, argument dead.
Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
Legend wrote:
2 years ago
Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
Again I ask, have you gotten on the discord and discussed this?
No. Currently, I don't have the time. I barely had time for this. And I really don't care for discords, TBH. They're messy, IMO. I also feel like that would be like going into the proverbial dragon's lair, where I'd have to spend countless hours - again - hacking and slashing my way through undead arguments to get to the dragon(s). (Sorry for what seems like an out-of-nowhere analogy, I've been obsessing over D&D with what little free time I've had lately.) I dunno, maybe one day I will.
so, you're just using this thread to vent gotcha
Nah, I just have a genuine dislike of the Discord interface, I'm busy for the foreseeable future, and am using what little free time I have to play D&D. I am a member of the Discord and have poked around there a bit. Maybe one day, I'll return but not right now.
Sharpened wrote:
2 years ago
No. The Companion rule does not specifically use the Command Zone: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/2020 ... es-update/

It doesn't really matter where it is though.
The hell if it doesn't. Not when the premier logic of the RC was "we decided outside the game contains nothing".
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

User avatar
Hermes_
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hermes_ » 2 years ago

Legend wrote:
2 years ago
Hermes_ wrote:
2 years ago
Legend wrote:
2 years ago

No. Currently, I don't have the time. I barely had time for this. And I really don't care for discords, TBH. They're messy, IMO. I also feel like that would be like going into the proverbial dragon's lair, where I'd have to spend countless hours - again - hacking and slashing my way through undead arguments to get to the dragon(s). (Sorry for what seems like an out-of-nowhere analogy, I've been obsessing over D&D with what little free time I've had lately.) I dunno, maybe one day I will.
so, you're just using this thread to vent gotcha
Nah, I just have a genuine dislike of the Discord interface, I'm busy for the foreseeable future, and am using what little free time I have to play D&D. I am a member of the Discord and have poked around there a bit. Maybe one day, I'll return but not right now.
if you're used to chatrooms from the late 90s/early 00s it's like riding a bike lol imo
The Secret of Commander (EDH)
Sheldon-"The secret of this format is in not breaking it. "

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Rules and Philosophy”