Jumpstart for Commander Partners

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 837
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

Someone else might've brought up this idea before: What if we have a commander product that's like Jumpstart, every pack has a partner commander, and each "pack" has 50 cards. Players buy two packs and combine them into a partner-commander deck ready to go.

Power level aside, I think it'd be amazing to play a commander game without knowing what you got.

User avatar
RxPhantom
Fully Vaxxed, Baby!
Posts: 1513
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Southern Maryland

Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

This is really cool idea. There are so many cards that go unplayed and unloved that could find a home in this version of the format. I'd play this in a heartbeat.

I also just finished the initial 35-pack version of my regular JumpStart cube so I'm already in this mindset.
Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 2/18/22 (Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty)

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 837
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

I guess one problem is that commander is a singleton format, and if you happened to pick two commanders sharing colors, they may end up with duplicates. For example, two green commanders might both have Kodama's Reach.

One way to resolve this, of course, is the let different packs have different ramps. For example, a green commander would have Kodama's Reach, and another green commander would have Cultivate. An Azorius leader would have Azorius Signet while the other has Talisman of Progress. This would unfortunately keep Arcane Signet, Sol Ring, and Command Tower from these packs, or be inserted as bonus cards.

User avatar
darrenhabib
Posts: 1812
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

Didn't actually play with any Jumpstart, so it's hard to imagine how good/bad mashing up piles becomes?

It would be a very feasible idea with some price points per pack, idk maybe like $25? 100 card pre-cons seem to range between $40-$45.

As you say unique mana fixing per pack becomes one of the harder things if you are looking to be singleton. Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse would be nice to have as options but there are 56 partners from Commander Legends, so figuring out something unique and not terrible fixing for each is a challenge.
Then there is the question "how much fixing?" as you might get two of the same colored commanders so slots would be literally wasted on these combinations.

Would you only have the mono-colored partners?

This could be a fun challenge in general for people to build packs. I think if you took an approach of having a budget of around $40. Fairly arbitrary number but I was looking at precon prices and ratio between what they sell for and what individual card prices add up to and you might see between a 50%-80% price decrease. So a $40 pile could be sold for around $25 the way the Wizards might approach it.

Anyway I'm going to make a Akroma, Vision of Ixidor pack just because it was alphabetically the first partner and see what I can come up with for around $40.

User avatar
BaronCappuccino
Posts: 246
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Quiet Corner

Post by BaronCappuccino » 1 year ago

Back in Magic Origins' timeframe, WotC did similar with little 30 card bundles in each of the five colors in white boxes with the Origins walker of that color on the cover, and the intent was to let brand new players choose any two colors for free and mash them together for a deck to get into Magic with. My shop had dozens of them. WotC is familiar with the premise.

User avatar
cheonice
Sand is overpowered.
Posts: 450
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: NRW / Germany

Post by cheonice » 1 year ago

We had a discussion about building your own jumpstart packs a while ago. it wasn't Commander focussed, though: JumpStart

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 837
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

darrenhabib wrote:
1 year ago

Would you only have the mono-colored partners?
If the idea is to get people to start playing EDH, like Jump Start with 40 card decks, then it's probably the most feasible approach, just make sure that each booster has completely different cards, and has one colorless boosters as "box toper" that contains enough Sol Ring/Arcane Signet/Commander Tower for the whole box (which assume would be 4~6 decks per box, that'd be 12~18 of the three staples.)

User avatar
Mookie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 47
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: the æthereal plane

Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Interesting idea, but I suspect that the singleton rule will cause issues. Preventing overlap between spells is technically doable by carefully crafting the various decklists (although it may somewhat constrain the available options), but it will be a bigger issue for lands. Lands in Jumpstart need to fix for any possible partner color. Current Jumpstart boosters use Thriving Heath and friends to provide smooth mana for two-color decks, but even if you throw in Evolving Wilds and other colorless options, I'm not convinced there are enough fixing lands available for even a single deck, let alone ensuring uniqueness among all decks. I suppose you could slap some 'you may run any number of this card' text on new lands, but that may have broader implications for deckbuilding. Hmmm...

User avatar
JovialJovian
Captain, I object!
Posts: 2254
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by JovialJovian » 1 year ago

I don't see that duplicate cards would be any kind of problem at all.
Opening two packs and shuffling them together for a deck is 100% within the realm of Limited play, and Limited has always operated without regard to the normal card-number restrictions.
Playing more than 4 of a card in draft has always been permitted.
Playing more than 4 of a card in sealed has always been permitted.
In Commander Legends and Baldur's Gate drafts, playing more than 1 copy of a card is permitted.

There's tons of precedent for this being totally acceptable.

If your plan is for people to bring these Jump-started decks into games with constructed decks, that would be a problem, but also the Jump Start deck is just going to get killed, so hat wouldn't be much fun. Much like regular Jump Start, I would expect these to only be played against each other, as a quick-play option and onramp to the format, rather than a competitor to Preconstructed decks.

User avatar
Crazy Monkey
Arcane Themes
Posts: 571
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: New Mexico, US

Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

This concept has been stuck in my head since I read the OP last week. I find it a very compelling alternative to a commander cube because the setup time is so reasonable by comparison. Just grab two halves and shuffle up.

I have been brainstorming around 3-5 archetypes per color with no card overlaps anywhere, and it has been a very different brewing experience. I'm grateful for the idea.

Side note, does anyone have a good cube box/similar that they recommend that can fit around 1000 cards?
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



User avatar
JovialJovian
Captain, I object!
Posts: 2254
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by JovialJovian » 1 year ago

Regular jumpstart is 40-card decks (2 20-card half decks), which is in line with draft and sealed play.

Since commander draft is 60-card decks, should we do 30-card half-decks for this? That would cut down on duplicates among the packs.

User avatar
TheAmericanSpirit
Supreme Dumb Guy
Posts: 2195
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: he / him
Location: IGMCULSL Papal Palace

Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
Side note, does anyone have a good cube box/similar that they recommend that can fit around 1000 cards?
I recommend the BCW Super Vault. You can cut small slits in the inner sides and then glue hard toploader sleeves in the slots to create dividers between sections. Kind of an arts and crafts project, but it beats buying some fancy plastic box for 25 quid, eh?
There's no biscuits and gravy in New Zealand.
(Except when DirkGently makes them!)

ukkuhrmakhai
Posts: 52
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by ukkuhrmakhai » 1 year ago

This sounds pretty amazing. What would be the best way to quickly re-separate the decks afterwards? Use a marking on the front side or just decide not to care about it and make the all the sleeves different colors?

I don't see any reason to worry about duplicate cards between packs unless it is a restriction you want to place on your self. I think it will be much easier to properly balance the decks if you can repeat cards. You quickly see the drop in card quality just in 100 cards, trying to ensure your second half of decks are just as good the first would be almost impossible unless you constantly rebuild the decks. And it would be much easier to expand if you see a commander you want to add.

Would you stick to partner commanders or just give each deck a "commander" card that gains this "This card can and must be your commander." and "Partner"?

User avatar
Crazy Monkey
Arcane Themes
Posts: 571
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: New Mexico, US

Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

ukkuhrmakhai wrote:
1 year ago
This sounds pretty amazing. What would be the best way to quickly re-separate the decks afterwards? Use a marking on the front side or just decide not to care about it and make the all the sleeves different colors?

I don't see any reason to worry about duplicate cards between packs unless it is a restriction you want to place on your self. I think it will be much easier to properly balance the decks if you can repeat cards. You quickly see the drop in card quality just in 100 cards, trying to ensure your second half of decks are just as good the first would be almost impossible unless you constantly rebuild the decks. And it would be much easier to expand if you see a commander you want to add.

Would you stick to partner commanders or just give each deck a "commander" card that gains this "This card can and must be your commander." and "Partner"?
If this was asked about my specific plan, I am planning on mono color legendary creatures with partner, at least to start. Conceivably it could expand to 2 color legendary creatures with partner. It is intended as an easy way to have a lot of variety in lower powered games,

On the topic of duplicates and disassembly, I have competing concepts that I haven't fully reconciled. The easy option is to just make a rule that no chosen commanders can share a color, so it is very intuitive when I take them back apart. However, this removes the need for a "no duplicates" restriction outside the colorless cards. I will probably have 1 of these limitations, but not the other.

A friend of mine who has built multiple modular decks has used small stickers on inner sleeves to identify which group a card goes into, but I don't personally want to go that route. I am likely going to limit it by the color identity.

I am also thinking that each commander gets 2 or fewer nonbasics, and basically a draft pack of lands, for space reasons. 20 decks x50 cards is more than 20 x33 plus lands at 5 colors x18 basics x4 players. Perhaps further reduced by Command Tower and Evolving Wilds. Keeping it at less than 1,000 cards is a goal.

My last, unstated intent is for any one of the commander "packs" to play well against any other commander pack; similar power level games. This would allow an almost draft of commanders alone, then supply the entire table with decks. It would take 5 minutes or less to set up a game.

I guess that I could errata partner on, but that starts to tickle my decision paralysis with too many choices. So I am starting with official partners.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



wildfire393
Posts: 260
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: he / him

Post by wildfire393 » 1 year ago

I've been considering an idea like this for a while.

My thought was that each "pack" would be a Commander + 19 other cards, and you'd pick two plus a 20-card colorless "Core" and shuffle them together into a 60 card deck.

The core would be mostly color fixing, ramp, and utility, which would let the individual packs focus on what works best with that Commander. A first-blush rough draft of the core I had was something like this:

For the packs, I figure I can do them for each of the following to be mixed and matched:
-All Partner commanders
-All Partners With commanders
-All Friends Forever commanders
-All Choose a Background/Background Enchantment commanders

This gives 151 options which is a ton to go off of, but if somehow those all get exhausted this list could be expanded with some reasonable monocolored commanders too.

The 20+20+20 setup also lets me use my Cubeamajigs which have just been languishing for a while.

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 837
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

wildfire393 wrote:
1 year ago
I've been considering an idea like this for a while.

My thought was that each "pack" would be a Commander + 19 other cards, and you'd pick two plus a 20-card colorless "Core" and shuffle them together into a 60 card deck.

The core would be mostly color fixing, ramp, and utility, which would let the individual packs focus on what works best with that Commander. A first-blush rough draft of the core I had was something like this:

For the packs, I figure I can do them for each of the following to be mixed and matched:
-All Partner commanders
-All Partners With commanders
-All Friends Forever commanders
-All Choose a Background/Background Enchantment commanders

This gives 151 options which is a ton to go off of, but if somehow those all get exhausted this list could be expanded with some reasonable monocolored commanders too.

The 20+20+20 setup also lets me use my Cubeamajigs which have just been languishing for a while.
A beginning pack like that would be great. Colorless base is a great suggestion.

I guess that came to one question: Regular Jump-Start is 24 boosters packs, 20 cards each. If we were to have this commander-partner JS where we need 2+1=3 packs to form a deck, that'd be 1/3 of the box being just basic stuff. JS is ideally a beginner product with potential veteran buyers, and veteran players would want to pick up unique cards and reprints, how would they feel about 1/3 chance of getting the "basics"?

One way to do this is probably have a supplement box with just the basic boosters, a "EDH Staple Box". The Staple Box will supply your aforementioned basic cards, it could be sold separately to aid this EDH Jump-Start product and/or as a convenient starter for people who simply want to build new decks from scratch.

wildfire393
Posts: 260
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 1
Pronoun: he / him

Post by wildfire393 » 1 year ago

Cyberium wrote:
1 year ago
wildfire393 wrote:
1 year ago
I've been considering an idea like this for a while.

My thought was that each "pack" would be a Commander + 19 other cards, and you'd pick two plus a 20-card colorless "Core" and shuffle them together into a 60 card deck.

The core would be mostly color fixing, ramp, and utility, which would let the individual packs focus on what works best with that Commander. A first-blush rough draft of the core I had was something like this:

For the packs, I figure I can do them for each of the following to be mixed and matched:
-All Partner commanders
-All Partners With commanders
-All Friends Forever commanders
-All Choose a Background/Background Enchantment commanders

This gives 151 options which is a ton to go off of, but if somehow those all get exhausted this list could be expanded with some reasonable monocolored commanders too.

The 20+20+20 setup also lets me use my Cubeamajigs which have just been languishing for a while.
A beginning pack like that would be great. Colorless base is a great suggestion.

I guess that came to one question: Regular Jump-Start is 24 boosters packs, 20 cards each. If we were to have this commander-partner JS where we need 2+1=3 packs to form a deck, that'd be 1/3 of the box being just basic stuff. JS is ideally a beginner product with potential veteran buyers, and veteran players would want to pick up unique cards and reprints, how would they feel about 1/3 chance of getting the "basics"?

One way to do this is probably have a supplement box with just the basic boosters, a "EDH Staple Box". The Staple Box will supply your aforementioned basic cards, it could be sold separately to aid this EDH Jump-Start product and/or as a convenient starter for people who simply want to build new decks from scratch.
Yeah this would be a self-curated box like a cube, not a commerically-available product.

User avatar
Crazy Monkey
Arcane Themes
Posts: 571
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: New Mexico, US

Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

So after working on it for, *checks thread history* apparently several months, I finished my project from this thread enough to play it. I can attest that it's a lot of fun so far (only 20 commanders done). Another week or two of testing/tweaking and it should be fit to post.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 837
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
So after working on it for, *checks thread history* apparently several months, I finished my project from this thread enough to play it. I can attest that it's a lot of fun so far (only 20 commanders done). Another week or two of testing/tweaking and it should be fit to post.
That is a wonderful news. Nothing proves like an experiment. XD

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Commander”