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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I don't like Sanitarium Skeleton. So I set out looking for alternatives. Of course the first that comes up is Bloodghast, but we don't have the critical mass of fetchlands to do that. Next was Nether Traitor, which can recur on other turns...but it costs B each time. I suspect this is likely the most efficient, but it's conditional so I can't really call it better than sanitarium skelie. Of course there's new squee but it's sorcery speed to recast. Ashen Ghoul/Nether Shadow/Nether Spirit all only recur on upkeep, and conditionally. Bloodsoaked Champion is easy but only on our turn. Does that really make sanitarium skelie best in class after all?

Nemesis Phoenix looks reasonably easy to proc it's rebuy with, so I think that's acceptable to make the cut. You're never going to hardcast it though, which brings me to today's pick. Faithless Looting. edit: also yaying Judith.

Vicious Shadows 2 yea 1 nay
Flamewake Phoenix 2 yea 0 nay
Kulrath Knight 2 yea 0 nay

I'm going to use some executive authority to approve these as they've been up for awhile and haven't had conversation with them.

Sanitarium Skeleton 2 yea 0 nay
Immersturm Predator 2 yea 0 nay
Squee, the Immortal 1 yea 1 nay
Nemesis Phoenix 2 yea 0 nay
Judith, the Scourge Diva yay - 1 nay - 0
Faithless Looting yay - 0 nay - 0

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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
For today's card (and I wonder if this commander just sucked the interest from people, the holidays are catching up, or if the early differences in opinion have caused a cool down?)
Yes
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Maybe we need to consider more delve/escape cards as exiling cards from our graveyard will also trigger the general.

Yay Judith
Yay Looting

Nominate Woe Strider. Not my favourite sac outlet but escape seems really good here.
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
I don't like Sanitarium Skeleton. So I set out looking for alternatives. Of course the first that comes up is Bloodghast, but we don't have the critical mass of fetchlands to do that. Next was Nether Traitor, which can recur on other turns...but it costs B each time. I suspect this is likely the most efficient, but it's conditional so I can't really call it better than sanitarium skelie. Of course there's new squee but it's sorcery speed to recast. Ashen Ghoul/Nether Shadow/Nether Spirit all only recur on upkeep, and conditionally. Bloodsoaked Champion is easy but only on our turn. Does that really make sanitarium skelie best in class after all?
Literally my exact same logic I went through when nominating it, It looks like there HAS to be better options, but there really isn't. *shrug* The value of recurring creatures on our opponent's turns really flips the way we evaluate skeletons.
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Sanitarium Skeleton 2 yea 0 nay
Immersturm Predator 3 yea 0 nay
Squee, the Immortal 2 yea 1 nay
Nemesis Phoenix 3 yea 0 nay
Judith, the Scourge Diva yay - 2 nay - 0
Faithless Looting yay - 1 nay - 0


No additional comments, they're all just good cards.
Today I'll nominate Cultist of the Absolute, It might end up dead in our hand if we don't have any good sac fodder out yet, but if we do, this allows our commander to blast and swing for 6, and gives him death touch, ward - pay 3 life is pretty underwhelming, but that's a lot of oomph for 1 mana, and unlike a piece of equipment, we'll never have to pay more, no matter how many times our commander gets blown up.

I only wish it granted lifelink instead of flying
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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I'm gonna make an executive decision here as I think we've got all the discussion out of the skelie as we can, and the prevailing opinion is it's somehow best-in-class. I also think Squee is largely agreed upon but we can open that floor up more if someone wants to.

I'm gonna nay cultist of the absolute, because I really don't think it's that good. Having protection that I don't need mana to play around just isn't that great. I'd rather, say, a Supernatural Stamina effect to go along with our malakir rebirth baked into the mana. So, in that vein, I'm gonna submit Phyrexian Reclamation to effortlessly get our guys out of the yard.

Sanitarium Skeleton 2 yea 0 nay
Immersturm Predator 3 yea 0 nay
Squee, the Immortal 2 yea 1 nay
Nemesis Phoenix 3 yea 0 nay

Judith, the Scourge Diva yay - 2 nay - 0
Faithless Looting yay - 1 nay - 0
Cultist of the Absolute yay - 0 nay - 1
Phyrexian Reclamation yay - 0 nay - 0

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Nominating Woe Strider. Not my favourite sac outlet but pulls double duty since we can escape it.
Yay judith, looting and reclamation. Also nay on cultist.

Judith, the Scourge Diva yay - 3 nay - 0
Faithless Looting yay - 2 nay - 0
Cultist of the Absolute yay - 0 nay - 2
Phyrexian Reclamation yay - 1 nay - 0
Woe Strider yay - 0 nay - 0
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Yea Faithless Looting as an efficient discard.
Yea Phyrexian Reclamation as efficient and instant speed recursion.
Yea Woe Strider despite the high MV because it does pull double duty well.
I think that I am yea on Cultist of the Absolute. It's power for our commander, as well as protection. However the protection is middling and the sacrifice timing isn't great. What shifted me from abstain to yea was that we have a lot of creatures that recur on our own turn (phoenixes and bloodgast). So as upkeep sacrifice timing can help set up recurring those options.

This got me thinking about the other backgrounds., and now I will nominate Haunted One. I was looking for some undying and power for damage for some other synergy, and that contains both in one card.

Judith, the Scourge Diva yay - 3 nay - 0
Faithless Looting yay - 3 nay - 0
Cultist of the Absolute yay - 1 nay - 2
Phyrexian Reclamation yay - 2 nay - 0
Woe Strider yay - 1 nay - 0
Haunted One yay - 0 nay - 0
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

Hmm. Phoenixes with undying, now that's something!

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Let me be a contrarian on Woe Strider. How often have you escaped this? And how often have you been happy to escape this? I know I got super excited to jam it into Gut, until I wasn't because there's so much better things to do. Sac outlets are great, but this ain't it, chief. Nay.

If we want an escape card, I'd recommend Ox of Agonas. I think that's my nomination for today, sure.

I never realized how few and nonexistent mass undying enablers are. I think I have to yay haunted one on principle.

Judith, the Scourge Diva yay - 3 nay - 0
Faithless Looting yay - 3 nay - 0

Cultist of the Absolute yay - 1 nay - 2
Phyrexian Reclamation yay - 2 nay - 0
Woe Strider yay - 1 nay - 1
Haunted One yay - 1 nay - 0
Ox of Agonas yay - 0 nay - 0

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WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

Okayokayokay let's clean some picks up! I'm not sold on Cultist of the Absolute, I just can't imagine this ever working like you envision :/ so I'll nay it off the list. I'm glaring really hard at woe strider because goat tokens but I don't imagine I'm ever gonna pay five to flash it back? Nay.

Reclamation is an easy yay I think. It does everything we want, it's cheap, it's instant. I love the use of haunted one and I think that's exactly the effect we need!

I am open to being convinced otherwise but I think that ox is a yay as well? I don't really see a time I'm not happy to hand cycle for RR. Yay.

Cultist of the Absolute yay - 1 nay - 3
Phyrexian Reclamation yay - 3 nay - 0
Woe Strider yay - 1 nay - 2
Haunted One yay - 2 nay - 0
Ox of Agonas yay - 1 nay - 0

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

A couple of confirmations to make.

For today I'm just gonna stick with the simple yet flexibly powerful for this deck, Undying Evil. Does what it says on the tin and is especially synergistic with our phoenix plan. There's also a few more of these effects I'd expect to make their way in that I'll yay on principle, should they make it to the table.

Cultist of the Absolute yay - 1 nay - 3
Phyrexian Reclamation yay - 3 nay - 0
Woe Strider yay - 1 nay - 2
Haunted One yay - 2 nay - 0
Ox of Agonas yay - 1 nay - 0
Undying Evil yay - 0 nay - 0

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Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Abstain on Ox of Agonas . I see it as a reasonable card cycling engine. However, Escape 8 is a lot of cards, and I don't anticipate doing that more than once or twice. I am not convinced on it yet.
Yea Undying Evil as a way to protect creatures while also setting up a trigger on other turns.

On the topic of escape, I nominate Gravebreaker Lamia as a graveyard tutor that sets up escape and our commander well. It happens to also work well with the cost reduction based Sylex looping that I mentioned a couple of weeks ago.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

I think five mana for a limited buried alive is a hard sell no? I think that's a nay on the grave breaker. But for today I'll nominate actual Buried Alive|tor.

Yay for undying evil though!

Woe Strider yay - 1 nay - 2
Haunted One yay - 2 nay - 0
Ox of Agonas yay - 1 nay - 0
Undying Evil yay - 2 nay - 0
Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 0 nay - 1
Buried Alive yay - 0 nay - 0

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

For today's card just like Undying Evil, I'm going to throw Supernatural Stamina into the ring. No, no, no oh snap we finally have the deck for this card to shine! I'm nominating Scythe of the Wretched!! Our commander is the engine piece that sets this off, hell yes!

I never voted on Haunted One, so I'm going to yay that. It does everything we want to care about anyway. I'm also going to yay Buried Alive, easily one of my favourite totally-not-busted, totally-fair-and-reasonable cards, surely you agree :P

Sell me on Gravebreaker Lamia, @Crazy Monkey! I think there's a lot of hits going against it, but I'm willing to hear a pitch before I just throw it in the trash.

It's been a few days and discussion has dried up with no further arguments, so I think it's time to make an executive decision to pull the plug on Woe Strider.

Woe Strider yay - 1 nay - 2
Haunted One yay - 3 nay - 0


Ox of Agonas yay - 1 nay - 0
Undying Evil yay - 2 nay - 0
Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 0 nay - 1
Buried Alive yay - 1 nay - 0
Scythe of the Wretched yay - 0 nay - 0

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Commander
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Gravebreaker Lamia is cost reduction on the one card we know to expect casting multiple times. The cost reduction also includes any cast from graveyard so Squee, the Immortal and escape cards (which I anticipate casting multiple times, I view this as an engine-based aggro deck). Finally the cost reduction has been an area of focus for me to enable an infinite combo that involves our commander sacrifice looping.

It can also be more easily recurrent than Buried Alive or Entomb, so there is a reasonable expectation that it will be getting more than one trigger. If this is an engine-based deck, then getting one good card to set up for getting more good cards offers a lot of prospective value.

I think the only con is the MV, which is a fair criticism.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Nay Ox - Exiling 8 cards is a lot. How are we achieving this?
Yay Undying Evil, Lamia, Buried Alive and Scythe. I think these are all excellent inclusions in our deck.

And I will nominate Graveshifter. It's a phoenix. it's etb can trigger Syrix. Seems better than it usually would be in this deck.

Ox of Agonas yay - 1 nay - 1
Undying Evil yay - 3 nay - 0
Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 1 nay - 1
Buried Alive yay - 2 nay - 0
Scythe of the Wretched yay - 1 nay - 0
Graveshifter yay - 0 nay - 0
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Enthusiastic yay to Scythe of the Wretched I to have wanted to find a deck for this card.

If we are going the engine route you know what's a great engine that also works great with Gravebreaker Lamia? Tenacious Underdog, I'm not salty at all about that nomination getting shot down.

I'm gonna withhold on lamia for the time being, it is cool, but awfully expensive


Edit, someone ninjaed me, let me adjust the vote counts

Ox of Agonas yay - 2 nay - 1
Undying Evil yay - 4 nay - 0
Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 1 nay - 1
Buried Alive yay - 3 nay - 0
Scythe of the Wretched yay - 2 nay - 0
Graveshifter yay - 1 nay - 0
Last edited by Dunadain 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I think I'm kinda leaning towards lamia. I really didn't expect my mind should shift on that.

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Since my last hot off the press, self-recursive creature didn't make it in, I shall try again:

Razorlash Transmogrant will almost always cost BB to recur in an edh game, the +1/+1 counter is almost a downside because of Skullclamp, but still probably good. Also, it's instant speed! Makes that Sanitarium Skeleton nomination look a little embarrassing. :grin:

Are we allowed to nominate unreleased cards? :thinking:
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

I was so busy voting during lunch that I forget to vote during lunch.

Yea Buried Alive because graveyard stuff.
Yea Scythe of the Wretched because that's a great synergy here.
Yea Graveshifter because it's a good phoenix here.

I think the rule was that we can add cards once prerelease hits, so Razorlash Transmogrant is available for voting on Friday. I actually prefer the underdog because a single opponent having 4 nonbasics seems unlikely before turn 6 in my group (unless there's a 5 color deck). They both suffer the same limitations as Squee though, in that they are limited to our own turn. I am not sure if I will vote for it on Friday.

My nomination today is the last card for my pet 5+ card combo that I think may be worth inclusion on its own merit. I nominate Relic of Legends as we have a fair number of legends, and some synergy in tapping our commander.

Ox of Agonas yay - 2 nay - 1
Undying Evil yay - 4 nay - 0
Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 1 nay - 1
Buried Alive yay - 4 nay - 0
Scythe of the Wretched yay - 3 nay - 0
Graveshifter yay - 2 nay - 0
Relic of Legends yay 0 - nay - 0
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

A few confirmations, to include me casting the deciding vote on graveshifter and officially adding a second yay on Lamia. I think I'm going to nay Relic of Legends because, unlike in Lulu, we don't have the reason to tap our commander and we don't have the dearth of legends to make this look like a janky earthcraft, even if we squint at it.

For today's card since undying evil went over so well, I submit Supernatural Stamina as another copy of this effect. I wouldn't play the two mv versions, but the one cost spells feel really good to blow people out with. Have definitely enjoyed them in Gut as a deck that really wants to keep it's commander out there.

Undying Evil yay - 4 nay - 0
Buried Alive yay - 4 nay - 0
Scythe of the Wretched yay - 3 nay - 0
Graveshifter yay - 3 nay - 0

Ox of Agonas yay - 2 nay - 1
Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 2 nay - 1
Relic of Legends yay 0 - nay - 1
Supernatural Stamina yay - 0 nay - 0
Razorlash Transmogrant (can vote Friday) yay - 0 nay - 0

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Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Yea Supernatural Stamina. I like the instant speed protection and sacrifice outlet enabling.
I abstained on Ox of Agonas and Razorlash Transmogrant. Does anyone want to discuss those further?

On that topic, I was checking our current list, and noticed a surprising dearth of sacrifice outlet necessary for all our graveyard looping. The I starting looking at budget sacrifice outlets because I assumed the best in class was over our price target. I was surprised to see Goblin Bombardment At under $5, so I have no excuse to nominate on of my go-to alternatives like Blazing Hellhound or Barrage of Expendables.

I nominate Goblin Bombardment.

Ox of Agonas 2 yea, 1 nay
Gravebreaker Lamia 2 yea, 1 nay
Supernatural Stamina 1 yea, 0 nay
Relic of Legends 0 yea, 1 nay
Razorlash Transmogrant 0 yea, 0 nay
Goblin Bombardment 0 yea, 0 nay
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I think we do need to discuss the ox yeah because I think it's being evaluated as though it's being cast each turn which obviously isn't sustainable. I have much more to say once I'm not just at work. Card is very good though, much better than people give it credit for.

Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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aliciaofthevast
Phyrexian Flesh Agent
Posts: 328
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: she / her
Location: New Phyrexia

Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

Easy yay for supernatural stamina and bombardment, I don't think there's a universe that exists where these cards won't just pull their weight here. Nay to relic of legends, I don't see any combo applications. If we want a three mana rock, then my card for today would fill that spot better, I think.

Cultivator's Caravan

Ox of Agonas 2 yea, 1 nay
Gravebreaker Lamia 2 yea, 1 nay
Supernatural Stamina 2 yea, 0 nay
Relic of Legends 0 yea, 2 nay
Razorlash Transmogrant 0 yea, 0 nay
Goblin Bombardment 1 yea, 0 nay
Cultivator's Caravan yay - 0 nay - 0

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