Let's end Maze's End

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Ok I'm not 100% serious, but honestly I hate that Maze's End exists and I wanna complain about it.

For one thing, it's a wincon that's extremely hard to interact with outside of (1) winning faster (lame, power creep) or (2) land destruction. Now, I don't mind Strip Mine one bit, but having fought maze's end with strip mine it tends to be a pretty uphill battle since the maze player is almost certainly going to have a ton of land recursion. So unless you can follow it up with grave hate, your strip mine is merely a speed bump. So what's the way more effective solution? MLD, which is super duper lame.

For a second thing, it kinda ruins all other maze synergy. I freaking love utility lands, I think I've made that pretty clear over the years. And there are some fun synergies with gates post CLB. But all those synergies are always going to live in the shadow of a near-uninteractible win-the-game card. Even if maze's end hasn't gotten played and merely other gates, one Scapeshift and it's all over. So by necessity, anyone playing gates has to be constantly scrutinized, and if you don't have a good way to interact with maze's end as a wincon, you're better off just killing them ASAP. Which is a pretty damn high price to pay if you're running a gate deck without maze's end and just wanted the other synergies. No matter what other gates they print, no matter how fun or interesting those synergies are, they'll all basically be impossible to enjoy without constantly becoming a threat to the entire table just by virtue of playing a few mediocre fixing lands.

Anyway so idk. Ban maze's end I guess. It's dumb and I hate it.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

I am in agreement. I have never lost to Maze's End and I never want to. The design philosophy of a Maze's End deck tends to be a very sticky, recursion heavy concept and Maze's End isn't legendary either so you can clone it with several land clones and a few strange other clone effects. Just because I have never lost to it doesn't mean I want to see someone who is good at deckbuilding give it a crack because it seems like literally the most annoying kind of wincon.

I put it at slightly less annoying than Thassa's Oracle because its a lot slower to win but probably also harder to interact with as a whole. It wasn't too bad until they decided to print more gates so the total number is a lot higher than it used to be.

I hate alt wincons though so I would be happy if they never print another card with the words you win on it.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

I am a huge proponent of combat damage. Imho, it's the only real way to win. As such, I will always aggressively target anyone playing alternative win cons, as they are a sacrilege to the great combat step in the sky.

Maze's end, mill, combo, they're all the same. Summon some creatures and fight me with honor or die for lack of blockers, that's what I always say.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
I am a huge proponent of combat damage. Imho, it's the only real way to win. As such, I will always aggressively target anyone playing alternative win cons, as they are a sacrilege to the great combat step in the sky.

Maze's end, mill, combo, they're all the same. Summon some creatures and fight me with honor or die for lack of blockers, that's what I always say.
I do have a bit of respect for mill just because its so hard to execute and so easy to counter. Its also a strategy that tends to hurt players who want to excessively draw and run a few select wincons which I like to punish. This is assuming that the mill isn't just some infinite mana combo paired with a mana dump mill effect.

Fair mill is incredibly hard to execute and it draws excessive anger from casual players which makes it even harder to pull off. Its probably the one alt wincon that I do think is actually all in all kind of fair.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

@ISBPathfinder I will always hold you in the highest respect as a superior player and a better thinker. However, I said what I meant and meant what I said. I ain't cutting the Bruvac the Grandiloquents of the world any slack because they chose to fight an uphill battle. I'll mow 'em down for their sheer audacity though.

Creatures, damn it. The game is about creatures rotating 90°. If yours ain't rotating (barring vigilance) or you ain't got any, I'll come for you. If I sniff some combo or catch a whiff of filthy reservoir water, you can expect becoming intimately acquainted with my goons. The way I see it, my cards are very literally on the table. Alt-wins can come from nowhere, those cards aren't on the table. You trying to hide something from me? I'll find it out. You think you can pull some fancy trick while I'm not paying attention? Try me, I've been on your lifetotal like white on rice since you were playing a signet and passing. And I'm doing it with creatures, damn it.

I admit I'd love to play against your Dennick deck though. If there's a proper and respectable way to alt-win, that might just be it.

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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

When Maze's End was printed it seemed fine because finding 10 terrible guildates was so slow. We got one more in RVA and that still seemed safe enough. But now, I wonder if we're at a critical mass of Gates? The number of gates in existence has doubled in the last few months. A 5C deck can now run 21 gates as of DMU (plus Vesuva and Thespian's Stage) so hitting enough gates is easier than ever. Nine-Fingers Keene can *only* run 12 plus the mastercards, but that's a decent chunk - she can actually run more Gates than a Maze's End deck three years ago had access to! With Maze's End itself as a fairly resilient tutor and more land tutors printed every year, it's a lot. I have yet to see a Maze's End deck in the wild although with Keene it's only a matter of time. I am not sure it's bannable yet, but I do wonder what the threshold is for this to enter Coalition Victory territory in terms of it being too trivial to assemble.

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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
I am not sure it's bannable yet, but I do wonder what the threshold is for this to enter Coalition Victory territory in terms of it being too trivial to assemble.
I think the fact you can't just slap it in any old 5c deck for basically free is what will prevent it from hitting Coalition Victory levels of danger. You do still need to play a bunch of very specific taplands with no inherent bonuses to make it work, after all.

In general, I don't think the potential to combo Maze's End with Scapeshift is likely to make it a major problem. And remember, you can ask people who are running gates whether/how hard they're going on Maze's End, and base your assessment on their answer or lack thereof. (If they won't say that they're not going the most degenerate route when specifically asked, then I think it's fair to assume they are. If you haven't even tried asking, that might be less reasonable.)
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Jemolk wrote:
1 year ago
Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
I am not sure it's bannable yet, but I do wonder what the threshold is for this to enter Coalition Victory territory in terms of it being too trivial to assemble.
I think the fact you can't just slap it in any old 5c deck for basically free is what will prevent it from hitting Coalition Victory levels of danger. You do still need to play a bunch of very specific taplands with no inherent bonuses to make it work, after all.

In general, I don't think the potential to combo Maze's End with Scapeshift is likely to make it a major problem. And remember, you can ask people who are running gates whether/how hard they're going on Maze's End, and base your assessment on their answer or lack thereof. (If they won't say that they're not going the most degenerate route when specifically asked, then I think it's fair to assume they are. If you haven't even tried asking, that might be less reasonable.)
1) Lots of people are outright hostile to sharing information before the game about their decks. Hell I had someone Thassa's Oracle me the other day on like T6 with a hyper competative cEDH deck and he wouldn't even confirm what his wincon was the turn before he did it when I asked him if he was a lab man deck. I literally resorted to playing my most casual deck because I had never played with them and he just quitely draw a ton of cards while spot removing / countering literally everything played until he comboed off and played out his deck. I would actually refuse to play with him in the future if not for the fact that the only LGS I have which is an hour drive each way for me plays with paired seating in a three rounds format. He killed me and then proceeded to trade for 45 min afterwards leaving me to sit for over an hour with nothing to do unless I wanted to leave early.
2) Maze's End is a "slow" strategy as far as combo is concerned. The concerning part is that it doesn't really use up much space other than slowing your land plays down but you are also incentivized to make additional land plays with the strategy so as soon as you are +1-2 lands in a turn you are ahead even if all your lands enter tapped. Its issue is far more in that the rest of the deck can be fogs, nonland sweepers, and ramp / recursion. That sort of a deck would be incredibly hard to beat without being a faster combo deck yourself. The problem with Maze's end is that it takes up no real space other than slowing your lands down but its also a strategy that plays well to playing Exploration type cards. Playing out your lands while being a control deck can be annoying in a very different kind of way. I am really not excited if someone ever sits down to play Maze's End Child of Alara >_< ohhhh god I don't want to see that.
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

I have played against Maze's End a lot. I pay control a lot, so I'm usually ready with Ghost Quarter + Scavenger Grounds.

The win con is USUALLY slow enough that I can permanently exile it before it wins the game.

Having said that, I'm usually the only person at the table that CAN interact with it, and to be honest, it's become so prevalent that I need to keep the card in mind when being new decks.

So yeah, it's lame, probably won't get banned but I wouldn't miss it if it did.

I think the biggest thing for me is that, conceptually, gate synergies is a neat deck idea, but Maze's End is just so much better than anything else gates can do.
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Post by Dragonlover » 1 year ago

So, in wincons I only run like, one other thing that gets Gates (Circuitous Route), but the extra ones from Baldurs Gate have definitely made it easier to pull off, and I can see it being obnoxious if it's the sole alt wincon in someones deck that they're aiming for.

I think I'd slightly complain for a bit on principle, then accept my improved manabase graciously in the event of it being banned.

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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

I never really thought about Maze's End. Since Golos got the axe, I haven't seen it in the wild. Kind of an easy button, which turns me off as a player. I don't normally mind playing against easy buttons, but I really hate it when people pat themselves on the back or gloat after winning with them.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
I think the biggest thing for me is that, conceptually, gate synergies is a neat deck idea, but Maze's End is just so much better than anything else gates can do.
I agree strongly with this. Maze's end completely overshadows anything else gates can ever do. You can't even run them in 3c decks now without putting a big "kill me" sign on your back.

I don't necessarily hate alt wincons (although I do dislike a lot of them) but "win the game" really is not text that should ever exist on a land.
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
1) Lots of people are outright hostile to sharing information before the game about their decks. Hell I had someone Thassa's Oracle me the other day on like T6 with a hyper competative cEDH deck and he wouldn't even confirm what his wincon was the turn before he did it when I asked him if he was a lab man deck. I literally resorted to playing my most casual deck because I had never played with them and he just quitely draw a ton of cards while spot removing / countering literally everything played until he comboed off and played out his deck. I would actually refuse to play with him in the future if not for the fact that the only LGS I have which is an hour drive each way for me plays with paired seating in a three rounds format. He killed me and then proceeded to trade for 45 min afterwards leaving me to sit for over an hour with nothing to do unless I wanted to leave early.
That really doesn't sound like much fun. My position is one largely from LGS pick-up games, so I can see how I might have failed to grasp the problems of a pseudo-tournament-format. All I can say is, if someone will say nothing at all, that's when I'd assume the worst. In my experience and in the stories I've heard, most of the time when someone's doing something janky, they'll at least be willing to say, "No, this isn't ThOracle" or whatever, because that makes them seem like a less overwhelming threat. They may not want to say what it actually is and be way too precious about spoiling "the surprise," but I think if you ask something like "hey is this ThOracle" and they won't answer, it's completely fair to assume the worst.

Clearly things are not being helped by only having one LGS within reasonable driving range, either. That situation, especially if it's at all common, might call for more aggressive format management.
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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

I'm cheering for Maze's End here because it is truly a slow and arduous way to win. besides if putting one bad nonbasic into play every turn for an eventual crushing victory was frowned on you wouldn't all be running Field of the Dead \o/

edit: OTOH if you wanna use Maze's End as an argument to ban Scapeshift, an actually OP card, I am listening!

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
I'm cheering for Maze's End here because it is truly a slow and arduous way to win. besides if putting one bad nonbasic into play every turn for an eventual crushing victory was frowned on you wouldn't all be running Field of the Dead \o/

edit: OTOH if you wanna use Maze's End as an argument to ban Scapeshift, an actually OP card, I am listening!
I've tried to use Field of the Dead as a win con and it's not really viable in EDH. 1-2 zombies a turn isn't going to win anything, unless your a hard control or stax deck and you've already gained complete control of the table, in which case you could really win with anything.

Also, people playing Maze's end are putting more than one land into play each turn.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
I'm cheering for Maze's End here because it is truly a slow and arduous way to win. besides if putting one bad nonbasic into play every turn for an eventual crushing victory was frowned on you wouldn't all be running Field of the Dead \o/

edit: OTOH if you wanna use Maze's End as an argument to ban Scapeshift, an actually OP card, I am listening!
I've tried to use Field of the Dead as a win con and it's not really viable in EDH. 1-2 zombies a turn isn't going to win anything, unless your a hard control or stax deck and you've already gained complete control of the table, in which case you could really win with anything.

Also, people playing Maze's end are putting more than one land into play each turn.
I built a Golos, Tireless Pilgrim deck focusing on Field of the Dead back when he was legal. I would proceed to clone it twice using Thespian's Stage and Vesuva and it totally got there. People weren't too happy with how hard it was to do anything about the deck though.... and I kind of agreed so I only played that deck a handful of times before retiring it. Playing a fetchland and getting 12 power of zombies is not super ok lol.
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
I'm cheering for Maze's End here because it is truly a slow and arduous way to win. besides if putting one bad nonbasic into play every turn for an eventual crushing victory was frowned on you wouldn't all be running Field of the Dead \o/

edit: OTOH if you wanna use Maze's End as an argument to ban Scapeshift, an actually OP card, I am listening!
I've tried to use Field of the Dead as a win con and it's not really viable in EDH. 1-2 zombies a turn isn't going to win anything, unless your a hard control or stax deck and you've already gained complete control of the table, in which case you could really win with anything.

Also, people playing Maze's end are putting more than one land into play each turn.
I built a Golos, Tireless Pilgrim deck focusing on Field of the Dead back when he was legal. I would proceed to clone it twice using Thespian's Stage and Vesuva and it totally got there. People weren't too happy with how hard it was to do anything about the deck though.... and I kind of agreed so I only played that deck a handful of times before retiring it. Playing a fetchland and getting 12 power of zombies is not super ok lol.
Okay, I'm willing to believe with enough build around, you can get there, but there's still more counter play to token strategies than Maze's end.

Your own tokens
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Infinite life?
Rakdos Charm?

Okay, those last two are kinda niche, but you get the idea.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
I'm cheering for Maze's End here because it is truly a slow and arduous way to win. besides if putting one bad nonbasic into play every turn for an eventual crushing victory was frowned on you wouldn't all be running Field of the Dead \o/

edit: OTOH if you wanna use Maze's End as an argument to ban Scapeshift, an actually OP card, I am listening!
Slow, sure I guess (though it can be sped up dramatically). But arduous implies that it's a lot of work, when it's really not. Especially not now that so much redundancy exists, in 5c 2/3 of your lands can be gates. So even with no intentional effort you basically just win somewhere around 15 lands. Doing absolutely nothing except running some slightly subpar fixing lands.

And of course maze's end fuels itself. So you can build a completely unrelated 5c deck - slivers or whatever, let's say - and then you just also get to have a difficult to interact with inevitable wincon just within your lands. I love utility lands but lands alone should not give you a guaranteed win. And the gate synergy is a thing now too, so you're not necessarily even running bad lands anymore.

I think it creates really garbage dynamics in the game too. Even if we ignore the possibility of accelerating the process, the gate player basically puts a big sign on their head that says "you must kill me in [6] turns". They become completely useless as an ally because their wincon is inevitable. It's like playing against a deck that only wants to combo and doesn't interact with the game in any other way. The only option is to kill them. It completely breaks the political structure of the game,
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
@ISBPathfinder I will always hold you in the highest respect as a superior player and a better thinker. However, I said what I meant and meant what I said. I ain't cutting the Bruvac the Grandiloquents of the world any slack because they chose to fight an uphill battle. I'll mow 'em down for their sheer audacity though.

Creatures, damn it. The game is about creatures rotating 90°. If yours ain't rotating (barring vigilance) or you ain't got any, I'll come for you. If I sniff some combo or catch a whiff of filthy reservoir water, you can expect becoming intimately acquainted with my goons. The way I see it, my cards are very literally on the table. Alt-wins can come from nowhere, those cards aren't on the table. You trying to hide something from me? I'll find it out. You think you can pull some fancy trick while I'm not paying attention? Try me, I've been on your lifetotal like white on rice since you were playing a signet and passing. And I'm doing it with creatures, damn it.

I admit I'd love to play against your Dennick deck though. If there's a proper and respectable way to alt-win, that might just be it.

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!
how do you feel about Phenax, God of Deception. Those creatures definitely be rotating 90°.




On topic, I had no issue with Maze's end when all it took was an Acidic Slime to mess them up. It was slow, disruptable, and not very common.
But now it has reached a critical mass that I think makes it much more difficult to beat.
I wouldn't say it needs to be banned, but if people aren't running GY hate and land destruction in their decks they deserve to lose to it.
There is enough good land and GY hate that everybody should be running some of it most of the time.

I think the biggest knock against it is actually that it is so slow with the constant shuffling.
The New World fell not to a sword but to a meme

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
how do you feel about Phenax, God of Deception. Those creatures definitely be rotating 90°.
I firmly believe that while those creatures indeed rotate, they're rotating for all the wrong reasons. It's not just about the letter of the law, it's about the spirit of the law (so to speak).
There's no biscuits and gravy in New Zealand.
(Except when DirkGently makes them!)

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Ertai Planeswalker
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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 1 year ago

I don't really see the difference in losing to a turn 7 Scapeshift into Maze's End vs a turn 7 Craterhoof Behemoth/Overwhelming Stampede. Even post CLB there's no reason to play Gates other than for Maze's End purposes so the card comes with a huge downside too. And if it's really causing problems in your specific meta there's always Jester's Cap/Praetor's Grasp etc.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
1 year ago
I don't really see the difference in losing to a turn 7 Scapeshift into Maze's End vs a turn 7 Craterhoof Behemoth/Overwhelming Stampede. Even post CLB there's no reason to play Gates other than for Maze's End purposes so the card comes with a huge downside too. And if it's really causing problems in your specific meta there's always Jester's Cap/Praetor's Grasp etc.
There are way more ways to interact with craterhoof. You have to have a board state, you have to resolve a spell, your opponents can't have too much life, removal spells can put a decent dent in your damage, and fogs end your career. Gates usually requires LD into gravehate to be stopped. These things are not equivalent.

In a max-gates 5c deck, Baldur's Gate is Cabal Coffers adjacent. So that alone is a decent justification for running them imo, especially if your manabase isn't that good to begin with. The treasure-making one is also fairly unique in its effect, I could imagine a treasure-matters deck thinking about it. The costs to run them are pretty low, they're crappy fixing lands but they're still good enough to get played over basics in limited.

It's not a problem (for that matter, it doesn't exist) in my current meta, but I tend to think about the format as a whole and not "what's currently bothering me right this second?" I do find the "just metadeck very specific answers against it!" to be pretty unconvincing as a solution, though. A problem having a narrow solution doesn't mean it's a positive for the format. Who the hell plays Jester's Cap in 2022 anyway? A decent gate deck almost certainly has maze's end in hand before you tutor for, and play, either of those cards so it's not a good solution even for people metadecking.

The card is certainly beatable, the issue isn't that it's overpowered. The issue is that it creates bad, unfun game dynamics. Playing Maze's End makes the game less fun nearly 100% of the time, and it overshadows other gate synergies. I don't know that it's really worth banning but the game would definitely be better if it didn't exist.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Maluko
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Post by Maluko » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
I don't necessarily hate alt wincons (although I do dislike a lot of them) but "win the game" really is not text that should ever exist on a land.
This is my main and only issue with the card.

I understand the stance by Wizards to reduce the amount of interaction that players have access to deal with lands. The downside of this philosophy is that, if a land design ends up being more powerful than anticipated, that land may end up being broken and single-handedly win games. Field of the Dead is a recent example where this went wrong. Particularly, in Commander, it is incredibly easy to recur lands from the graveyard if players somehow manage to destroy them, and effects that specifically exile lands are few and too narrow to run in a deck. Fortunately this gap between lands that are too powerful and land removal spells has been shrinking, albeit at a slow pace.

Maze's End aside, Wizards does need to reduce their fear of removing lands a little bit. That would help prevent future issues in case a new Field of the Dead rises again.

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Post by umtiger » 1 year ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
1 year ago
I don't really see the difference in losing to a turn 7 Scapeshift into Maze's End vs a turn 7 Craterhoof Behemoth/Overwhelming Stampede. Even post CLB there's no reason to play Gates other than for Maze's End purposes so the card comes with a huge downside too. And if it's really causing problems in your specific meta there's always Jester's Cap/Praetor's Grasp etc.
I am with you here. And I will admit my bias, because I am that dude with a 5c Lands.dec, but bringing up Maze's End is just silliness.

For some people, the only moral win condition is their own win condition.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I imagine everyone probably is tired of me blathering about play patterns but mazes end decks are an exercise in unhealthy play. Tiny attack surface tons of inevitability, combined with "my wincon is ramping" forming the unholy trinity of a godawful linear game.

You can't do anything about it and it goes the same way every game yay

Ban it. Though I wouldn't be sad to see almost every alt wincon go.

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