Let's end Maze's End

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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I imagine everyone probably is tired of me blathering about play patterns but mazes end decks are an exercise in unhealthy play. Tiny attack surface tons of inevitability, combined with "my wincon is ramping" forming the unholy trinity of a godawful linear game.

You can't do anything about it and it goes the same way every game yay

Ban it. Though I wouldn't be sad to see almost every alt wincon go.
I think the tipping point was when they printed more gates recently. Back when there were what like 11 playable gates it wasn't as big of a deal because your ability to naturally play gates through the course of the game was more limited and if someone could answer a few outside of answering Maze's End it was also an option to disrupt it. I don't know how many got added offhand but I think it was what like 8-10 more of them almost doubling the total number that can be played. I felt it was balanced for a good long while by the fact that you HAD to be five color and there was almost zero extra gates beyond the number you needed to win to execute the plan.

I am almost tempted to build a deck for it just so that I can speak from experience as I still haven't played with or against it I just think its extremely toxic as a wincon and the way in which you get to build the deck being almost entirely stall / counter / answer and land ramp / recursion sounds super unhealthy.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I imagine everyone probably is tired of me blathering about play patterns but mazes end decks are an exercise in unhealthy play. Tiny attack surface tons of inevitability, combined with "my wincon is ramping" forming the unholy trinity of a godawful linear game.

You can't do anything about it and it goes the same way every game yay

Ban it. Though I wouldn't be sad to see almost every alt wincon go.
I think the tipping point was when they printed more gates recently. Back when there were what like 11 playable gates it wasn't as big of a deal because your ability to naturally play gates through the course of the game was more limited and if someone could answer a few outside of answering Maze's End it was also an option to disrupt it. I don't know how many got added offhand but I think it was what like 8-10 more of them almost doubling the total number that can be played. I felt it was balanced for a good long while by the fact that you HAD to be five color and there was almost zero extra gates beyond the number you needed to win to execute the plan.

I am almost tempted to build a deck for it just so that I can speak from experience as I still haven't played with or against it I just think its extremely toxic as a wincon and the way in which you get to build the deck being almost entirely stall / counter / answer and land ramp / recursion sounds super unhealthy.
It was fine before the cmdr legends gates, because it was just hot garbage. Baldur's Gate turning gates into a ramp strategy is the primary tipping point in my mind, but there are a few other gates with powerful activated abilities and a ton of ways to tutor for multiple gates that became rapidly problematic.

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Post by BaronCappuccino » 1 year ago

Seems like a job for Ruination.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

BaronCappuccino wrote:
1 year ago
Seems like a job for Ruination.
This is quality DirkBait©, but in all seriousness how do we stop the maze? Is it really only stifles and perfectly-timed wastelands?
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Post by BaronCappuccino » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
BaronCappuccino wrote:
1 year ago
Seems like a job for Ruination.
This is quality DirkBait©, but in all seriousness how do we stop the maze? Is it really only stifles and perfectly-timed wastelands?
MLD and graveyard hate, if you want to shut it down for good. Black has deck search cards that are good against anything combo, There would be nothing more satisfying than removing the Maze's End alone from a Maze's End deck, but leaving the player alive to have nothing to do but play gates and pout.

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Post by umtiger » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
BaronCappuccino wrote:
1 year ago
Seems like a job for Ruination.
This is quality DirkBait©, but in all seriousness how do we stop the maze? Is it really only stifles and perfectly-timed wastelands?
How do you beat a deck where +33% of its lands come into play tapped? There's always going to be a speed limit on Maze's End because of that and needing 10 lands. There is a one land per turn rule in MTG but not one for anything else.

A turbo'd out Maze's End is not anywhere near turbo'd out (fill-in-the-blank). It's not high power. A lot of tuned decks will just be able to race and/or have interaction. And as a Maze's End player, playing around an open Strip Mine or Wasteland takes time. Most decks don't have Stifles but they can play Waste and Strip.

I would figure that most Maze's End decks will be heavy green and heavy land based. So Life from the Loam, great as it is, means any Tormod's Crypt, Scavenging Ooze, Bojuka Bog, etc. makes Maze's End the worse card left in your deck.

If you don't think Blood Moon and Ruination are okay to play, that's fine. I think they are but I still don't play them because of considering other people. However, I think Wave of Vitriol is more palatable for most.

Countermagic is surprisingly good too. I know it's counterintuitive since lands are a classic counter to counterspells. But Maze's End is heavily reliant on search/tutors. I play Boseiju to insure my Scapeshift resolves.

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

umtiger wrote:
1 year ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
BaronCappuccino wrote:
1 year ago
Seems like a job for Ruination.
This is quality DirkBait©, but in all seriousness how do we stop the maze? Is it really only stifles and perfectly-timed wastelands?
How do you beat a deck where +33% of its lands come into play tapped? There's always going to be a speed limit on Maze's End because of that and needing 10 lands. There is a one land per turn rule in MTG but not one for anything else.

A turbo'd out Maze's End is not anywhere near turbo'd out (fill-in-the-blank). It's not high power. A lot of tuned decks will just be able to race and/or have interaction. And as a Maze's End player, playing around an open Strip Mine or Wasteland takes time. Most decks don't have Stifles but they can play Waste and Strip.

I would figure that most Maze's End decks will be heavy green and heavy land based. So Life from the Loam, great as it is, means any Tormod's Crypt, Scavenging Ooze, Bojuka Bog, etc. makes Maze's End the worse card left in your deck.

If you don't think Blood Moon and Ruination are okay to play, that's fine. I think they are but I still don't play them because of considering other people. However, I think Wave of Vitriol is more palatable for most.

Countermagic is surprisingly good too. I know it's counterintuitive since lands are a classic counter to counterspells. But Maze's End is heavily reliant on search/tutors. I play Boseiju to insure my Scapeshift resolves.
The problem isn't speed or power level, that's what we've been saying, the problem is that it has a tiny attack surface, so while racing a Maze's end deck is totally a valid option, it's also the ONLY option for most decks, and I, for one, would rather the format slow down, not speed up.
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Post by umtiger » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
The problem isn't speed or power level, that's what we've been saying, the problem is that it has a tiny attack surface, so while racing a Maze's end deck is totally a valid option, it's also the ONLY option for most decks, and I, for one, would rather the format slow down, not speed up.
In my post, I listed perfectly reasonable ways to stop Maze's End. Its "attack surface" just isn't as tiny as you put it. That premise is false. Everyone can be playing Wasteland. Everyone should play graveyard removal. Many people can play countermagic. Sure, no one wants to play Blood Moon. That's on the group.

If anyone wants to complain because they find it personally annoying, that's fine. Their feelings are legit. Anyone can complain about anything. However, if anyone wants to hint at Gates being "good" or playable that's the problem. That's not a legit stance to have.

In my Lands.dec, the good cards are Exploration, Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds, Scapeshift, Strip Mine, etc. If the gates go, I'd argue my deck would get better to be honest.

Also, "racing" does not necessarily mean win-as-fast-as-possible. If you do nothing put play lands and rocks for the first 6 turns of the game, you should not expect to win a game where the opponent is supposed to win by making land drops. Push the initiative and start the game on turn 1, rather than turns 4-6. In my opinion, that would be a positive for the format.

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Post by illakunsaa » 1 year ago

I wish people would play more maze's end that way people might actually consider running staxier cards like armageddon, winter orb, back to basics etc. to combat it. I don't even consider maze's end to be worth banning but randomly hosing other decks would be a welcome side effect.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@illakunsaa Yeah no thanks.
umtiger wrote:
1 year ago
In my post, I listed perfectly reasonable ways to stop Maze's End. Its "attack surface" just isn't as tiny as you put it. That premise is false. Everyone can be playing Wasteland. Everyone should play graveyard removal. Many people can play countermagic. Sure, no one wants to play Blood Moon. That's on the group.
Ah, the "dies to removal" argument. Except in this case you're talking about very narrow answers. Sure, everyone CAN play wasteland, but it's still only 1 card in your deck, and it's also not particularly cheap. And even if you draw it and use it, setting yourself back a land drop in the process, it's probably not worth much unless you ALSO have the grave hate. Sure, if you're running all the land-destruction-lands, and all the good grave hate, then you've got pretty good odds of hitting both of those elements. But the vast majority of decks don't include very many of those things, if any, because they want to focus on their own things. There are a lot of strong utility lands competing for wasteland's spot. And there's counterplay even when you do have both LD and GY hate.
If anyone wants to complain because they find it personally annoying, that's fine. Their feelings are legit. Anyone can complain about anything. However, if anyone wants to hint at Gates being "good" or playable that's the problem. That's not a legit stance to have.
Cards being "good" or playable isn't why cards get banned in commander. They get banned because they create bad experiences. I would argue that maze's end creates bad experiences.
In my Lands.dec, the good cards are Exploration, Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds, Scapeshift, Strip Mine, etc. If the gates go, I'd argue my deck would get better to be honest.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove but I don't think it's relevant. I can make a deck where Limited Resources sucks, that doesn't mean we should unban it.
Also, "racing" does not necessarily mean win-as-fast-as-possible. If you do nothing put play lands and rocks for the first 6 turns of the game, you should not expect to win a game where the opponent is supposed to win by making land drops. Push the initiative and start the game on turn 1, rather than turns 4-6. In my opinion, that would be a positive for the format.
Maybe I'm missing what you're saying, but it sounds like you're saying "you don't need to race them, you just need to race them".

Of course you're acting like gates are the only wincon in the deck. In reality, gates are - while obviously subpar - okay fixing lands that many people play without any payoffs. So literally all you have to do is take a deck with a mediocre manabase, throw in maze's end, and now you've added a countdown timer that says you just win the game if it goes on for long enough. I think that's lame. I like utility lands, but lands should not be able to win the game all on their own. Inevitable wincons create unfun game states, and most decks don't have very many ways to interact with lands.
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Post by onering » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
I'm cheering for Maze's End here because it is truly a slow and arduous way to win. besides if putting one bad nonbasic into play every turn for an eventual crushing victory was frowned on you wouldn't all be running Field of the Dead \o/

edit: OTOH if you wanna use Maze's End as an argument to ban Scapeshift, an actually OP card, I am listening!
I've tried to use Field of the Dead as a win con and it's not really viable in EDH. 1-2 zombies a turn isn't going to win anything, unless your a hard control or stax deck and you've already gained complete control of the table, in which case you could really win with anything.

Also, people playing Maze's end are putting more than one land into play each turn.
I built a Golos, Tireless Pilgrim deck focusing on Field of the Dead back when he was legal. I would proceed to clone it twice using Thespian's Stage and Vesuva and it totally got there. People weren't too happy with how hard it was to do anything about the deck though.... and I kind of agreed so I only played that deck a handful of times before retiring it. Playing a fetchland and getting 12 power of zombies is not super ok lol.
Same. It started as a Mazes End deck actually, playing as Lands.deck with Maze's End as a wincon with Child of Alara as the commander. Golos replaced Child because why not make Maze's End my commander right? Well, it turns out it was much better to just tutor up Field every game, then follow up with Vesuva and friends.

Long story short, Maze's End isn't a problem. It only comes close to being one when you ramp out a bunch and then crack an end of turn Scapeshift, which is a two card combo that requires you run a bunch of bad lands to make work.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

onering wrote:
1 year ago
Same. It started as a Mazes End deck actually, playing as Lands.deck with Maze's End as a wincon with Child of Alara as the commander. Golos replaced Child because why not make Maze's End my commander right? Well, it turns out it was much better to just tutor up Field every game, then follow up with Vesuva and friends.

Long story short, Maze's End isn't a problem. It only comes close to being one when you ramp out a bunch and then crack an end of turn Scapeshift, which is a two card combo that requires you run a bunch of bad lands to make work.
Interestingly I am currently building a Child of Alara Maze's End deck right now lol. I will try to circle back to this thread if and when I get to play it some but I am currently building it as a full control style of deck with some level of ramp inevitability to it rather than being more of a dedicated combo deck its going to be a control shell with a landbase wincon.

That said, I do think that Basilisk Gate as a backup wincon with child is probably still a good wincon option even if they take you off of your primary Maze's End gameplan. Chipping in against combo decks with 10+ power and trample is something that will get concerning fast.

We will see where my list ends up going and if I play it much. I really want to only bring it out for combo level of games but I have been having a hard time getting people to declare what level they are playing to before the game begins. I also fear that making something like this and shifting between our combo vs non combo decks is going to breed faster and more competitive level of combo decks.

My concerns with Maze's End are mostly not that its too competitive but its very hard to interact with and it takes up very little space in a deck to commit to a maze package for what it does for the deck in return.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

I'm now going to build a Maze's End deck and (apparently) there's nothing you can do to stop me.

Not sure who to put in the command zone, though. Nine-Fingers Keene is who I'm leaning toward, but limiting the number of Gates I can run doesn't seem like a great idea. I guess there's the baby if I wanted to be truly obnoxious, but I think playing defensively and politically is a better option than "blow things up good" every turn. Maybe I'll get an alter of Garth One-Eye as Garth Algar.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
My concerns with Maze's End are mostly not that its too competitive but its very hard to interact with and it takes up very little space in a deck to commit to a maze package for what it does for the deck in return.
This.

Also I will say that every opponent I've played against that used mazes end has been a manipulative scumbag that desperately tried to downplay the threat of their wincon. Because, I mean, when your wincon is a face-up countdown to imminent victory you kinda have to? No, it's not that powerful, but I don't think it creates enjoyable play experiences, at all.
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Post by Dragonlover » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Also I will say that every opponent I've played against that used mazes end has been a manipulative scumbag that desperately tried to downplay the threat of their wincon.
I will always have a clearly stated Gate count and will recheck if anyone asks. It's only fair, they're lands and they're constantly being moved about so I can check colour requirements for stuff, nobody should have to keep track of that other than me.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@Dragonlover To clarify, I don't mean they're lying about how many gates they have. Rather than, when I say things like "hey, everyone be aware that he's 2 turns away from winning off gates" they'll say "someone will probably blow a gate up and then of course I have absolutely no way to recover. Besides, [other player] has [mildly threatening thing], so that's way scarier and everyone should focus on him instead."

That sort of thing.
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Post by Dragonlover » 1 year ago

Yeah no I don't do that. I'll happily try a blag about threat levels a lot of the time, but eight Gates is a pretty empirical "deal with this now" board state.

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Post by onering » 1 year ago

It's wild to see Dirk of all people complaining about people manipulating a table.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@onering I was about to write a long post splitting some hairs, but it probably deserves a topic of its own. So I think I'll just do that :)
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Well, I did something horrible. I made a decklist. I haven't played it yet but I figured I would share since I had previously said I was thinking about making one. I am a little scared about playing it so it will only be played with a cavoite that I am committing some level of war crimes beforehand.
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DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Well, I did something horrible. I made a decklist. I haven't played it yet but I figured I would share since I had previously said I was thinking about making one. I am a little scared about playing it so it will only be played with a cavoite that I am committing some level of war crimes beforehand.
Lol, I had a child of alara deck doing a similar thing back in the day (i.e. wiping the board every turn with corpse dance). I think my version was a lot more focused than yours at a first glance, but fair enough if you don't want to be QUITE as much of a prick as my version was. I didn't actually run maze's end since I didn't think it was necessary. Winning via commander damage was slow, but basically inevitable once the lock was in place.

Anyway CoA probably creates less obnoxiousness than most when it comes to maze's end. You are the archenemy, plain and simple. There's no obnoxious disingenuous deflection away from your board state because you can just wipe away everyone else's. Everybody can see how you're going to win and they've all got to work together to try to stop you.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
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Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Well, I did something horrible. I made a decklist. I haven't played it yet but I figured I would share since I had previously said I was thinking about making one. I am a little scared about playing it so it will only be played with a cavoite that I am committing some level of war crimes beforehand.
Lol, I had a child of alara deck doing a similar thing back in the day (i.e. wiping the board every turn with corpse dance). I think my version was a lot more focused than yours at a first glance, but fair enough if you don't want to be QUITE as much of a prick as my version was. I didn't actually run maze's end since I didn't think it was necessary. Winning via commander damage was slow, but basically inevitable once the lock was in place.

Anyway CoA probably creates less obnoxiousness than most when it comes to maze's end. You are the archenemy, plain and simple. There's no obnoxious disingenuous deflection away from your board state because you can just wipe away everyone else's. Everybody can see how you're going to win and they've all got to work together to try to stop you.
Mine is less proactive for sure. I really wanted to push mine more towards the inevitability of Maze's End and focus hard on not dying to combo decks. There are a lot of combo decks that destroying everything doesn't touch (looking at you Thassa's Oracle) so I pushed a bit harder on means of surviving rather than trying to push to race. I think that any deck pushing Maze's End in a combo meta is going to be on the slow side and while Child can interact with a number of them I wanted to focus on surviving rather than pushing to go faster.
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papermaniac
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Post by papermaniac » 7 months ago

(your majesty/ handsome pronouns)
i agree with banning that card in all formats for these reasons: 1 Gate decks doesn't need it to win; gate decks are already quite powerful, the player will always have ways to play early all the lands 2 is annoying i rather prefer to lost against a gate deck by having to fight their already powerful creatures rather than lost against them because of this overpowered land.

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Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 7 months ago

papermaniac wrote:
7 months ago
(your majesty/ handsome pronouns)
i agree with banning that card in all formats for these reasons: 1 Gate decks doesn't need it to win; gate decks are already quite powerful, the player will always have ways to play early all the lands 2 is annoying i rather prefer to lost against a gate deck by having to fight their already powerful creatures rather than lost against them because of this overpowered land.
All formats? I'm pretty sure you'd be laughed at if you played Maze's End in any format besides EDH. I understand why people dislike the card, and I'd understand if the commander committee decided to ban it, but Maze's end would actually need to see play in other formats to ban it there.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
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yeti1069
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Post by yeti1069 » 7 months ago

I played a 9-Fingers deck a couple weeks ago that was land tutors/extra land drops, fogs, board wipes, counterspells, extra turns, and big draw. We, as a table, were doing everything we could to try and slow it down/stop it, but when it got to 7 gates, it dumped a few more on the field with a spell, cast and extra turn that it was able to defend with a bunch of counter spells, and won. This with everyone gunning for it once it got to 4 gates. I tried blowing up Maze's End twice: once it got saved with a counter spell, and once it got removed and reanimated basically immediately.

I haven't played against Maze's End enough to really hate it, but it's definitely not fun to play against. In particular, the play pattern is you MUST kill the Maze's End player ASAP, and ignore anything everyone else is doing unless that thing is game-winning, because if you allow your focus to go elsewhere, the Maze player just wins.

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