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kirkusjones
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
notably, they combo with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Ooh, good point. And Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth, too. Not relevant for us and this deck, but I think it's decent enough to run the Jund one in the Soul of Windgrace lands deck I've been working on.

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
notably, they combo with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
They do not. On etb they will self-sac to search, but cards in the library are not swamps/forests for Urborg/Yavimaya. They'd need to have wording similar to Maskwood Nexus to do that,

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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
notably, they combo with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
They do not. On etb they will self-sac to search, but cards in the library are not swamps/forests for Urborg/Yavimaya. They'd need to have wording similar to Maskwood Nexus to do that,
The combo is that you can tap the land in response to the trigger and get an extra black mana right away.
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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Oh, like that. I didn't know that's what was being presented.

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I removed the two pending marked cards since we were two over. That was the cleanest cut. Am I correct in assuming that no one else really likes the post-edit phase? If so I can skip it on the next deck.
Jemolk wrote:
1 year ago
Comments on the manabase that @3drinks added:

With both Sword of the Animist and Sword of Hearth and Home, we definitely want more than 9 basics IMHO. Those can do some crazy work, and I'd never want to risk running out of basics before having pretty near all the mana I could use. Especially with all the other basic searching stuff we've got, 9 basics strikes me as pretty greedy, and I'd expect to run out at inconvenient times in an annoyingly large number of games. Probably not the majority, but enough to be a real pain on a pretty regular basis. Upping the count to ~12 should be sufficient for that. I'd happily cut the Goldmire Bridge and probably either the Shineshadow Snarl or Concealed Courtyard for a couple more. I also don't really feel like it'd be worth tracking down sufficient snow basics to run Faceless Haven profitably, and cutting colorless sources doesn't faze me at all. Particularly when we already have four other manlands. This last one is me being a bit lazy in the deck construction side of things, though. I would also definitely swap Ash Barrens for Esper Panorama in this deck. The panorama triggers revolt, after all. How's Roadside Reliquary been for you all, by the way? Saccing a land seems like way too steep a cost from my perspective, and only getting to use it once to maybe draw 2 has felt like too small a payoff. I've been quite fond of Arch of Orazca to make flooding not a problem, myself, but then, I've always been a draw-go kinda guy.
What can I say about basic count? If you're running out after throwing up nine lands plus whatever nonbasics you played to get there, you've already won, who cares about "not getting more"? That's win-more thinking, and is naturally inefficient. I think just the act of expecting you're going to attack (or connect in the case of SoHaH) so many times or even at all is...imaginative at best. Do people not play removal locally? In my experience people will prioritize snipping the sword bearer because of the seismic shifts in game states these equipments carry. If you're running out of basics because of sword triggers, I can only assume something is majorly wrong and it's worth looking into what's happening that players are just letting this happen. That's nine turns, nine combats of just attacking and by this point, we're speaking of turn 14+ by this point assuming we cast and equip on 4, attack, and no one interacts and just lets us do this. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation, and thus, that's why I don't think the basic count is too low. I just don't believe "running out" of basics is a thing that will actually happen.

I think there's a reasonable discussion with Ash Barrens vs Esper Panorama. Panorama does revolt it's true. It taps for mana the turn it comes down like the warped landscape "cycle". The one thing Ash Barrens does better is fix on t1, trading 1 for a b or w. A panorama is going to eat all of t2 to do this, and yeah while landscape/moraine take another mana to do it...hmm, it occurs to me these are the cuts for panorama and one more land, but maybe it's correct to play them all. Admittedly, I find the worst of this effect to be evolving/terramophic since they just don't make mana the turn they're played ever...

Roadside Reliquary is just another canopy land. Sometimes a double canopy, which feels good. It's true there's some argument to be made for making it Cryptic Caves as an easier req to hit. Maybe the correct choice is Castle Locthwain, since odds are you're not activating either until your hand is low either way. With the castle that gets another coloured source to replace the c one, which is probably relevant. On the other hand, I don't see any means that says Arch of Orazca is playable in the least. You'd have to be in a really low power environment to make a 6: Draw one card effect worthwhile. That's such a huge mana investment for a relatively small effect. Yeah, it's in the land base, but oof. At least use War Room for this. That's still a lot for a card, but it's not 6 for a card.

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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

@3drinks -- Depends on how much other ramping I'm doing. Remember, the Swords aren't the only things that fetch basics here. We've got five more lands that fetch basics, two of which can't be used at all without fetching with them, plus Wayfarer's Bauble and Armillary Sphere. It's not all that unreasonable to think that we could run out of basics for at least one of the effects. Between all my various ramp shenanigans, I've run out of basics in decks that run 12 plenty of times. Granted, I tend to play control and drag the game out to turn 15+ whenever I can, but it's definitely a thing. Doesn't have to be absurdly low power for that to happen, either. If everyone's playing a good amount of interaction, you can quite easily get a long game with a fair bit of back-and-forth going, just so long as you don't have someone trying to combo off every other turn.

As for Arch of Orazca, I did say I tend to like draw-go. If I haven't had to spend my mana on something else by my right-hand opponent's end step, I'm quite happy to spend it on a card. It's not the degree of draw engine/mana sink that Kefnet the Mindful or Whispers of the Muse is, but it's been quite good to me over the years since its release, especially in some of my stronger decks due to their playstyle.
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Arch of Orazca is a MENACE in Phelddagrif, it's a random land all game until your ready to close the door and then BAM nigh-invincible card draw engine grinds your last opponent into the dust.

However, this list is not Phelddagrif, I'm not certain that you'll often get to the point where you've got so much mana you're happy to spend 6 of it on a card.

Bonders' Enclave is one I'm more willing to run in most decks that have a commander with power >= 4, it's easy to mistake this card for something like Elemental Bond that you'll only run off you are playing a lot of big creatures, but that's not really the case, as you only need one to turn on Bonders' Enclave.

Of course, Lulu, Loyal Hollyphant only has 3 power, but she can put +1/+1 counters on herself, or we can even do it in our second main phase while Haunted One's buff is still active. Awkward, but still doable.

So yeah, I think I'd rather see Bonders' Enclave.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I had forgotten about bonders enclave for sure. I still think War Room is better as it's less conditional, but both are better than the Arch I'd argue. If one or the other got chosen in place of Arch, I wouldn't complain.

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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

I'm fine with either; I just really like repeatable draw on a land. War Room I only really play in mono-color decks right now, but it's still a fine card in 2-color. You also mentioned Castle Locthwain, which produces black but sometimes does considerably more damage; probably a good choice here. This probably isn't the deck for Arch of Orazca, but TBH, a draw-go deck will generally be happier with it than with War Room or Castle Locthwain. A more aggressive deck like this, thinking on it, would probably be better off with one of those two; they just tend to slip my mind a lot, along with Bonder's Enclave, because those aren't the kind of decks I tend to most often fixate on.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

No Holdout Settlement or Survivors' Encampment? Our background really likes them and they're dirt cheap.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
No Holdout Settlement or Survivors' Encampment? Our background really likes them and they're dirt cheap.
Hmm. They do offer the same thing Springleaf Drum has, although unlike the drum they don't actually ramp, they become conditional lands. Such an enabler is still probably worthwhile, though I'm unsure if they're better than the current nonbasics currently in place.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

As an advocate for synergies, and especially unexpected value pieces, I vote yea on Holdout Settlement and Survivors' Encampment as off-turn enablers for Haunted One .
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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
No Holdout Settlement or Survivors' Encampment? Our background really likes them and they're dirt cheap.
Hmm. They do offer the same thing Springleaf Drum has, although unlike the drum they don't actually ramp, they become conditional lands. Such an enabler is still probably worthwhile, though I'm unsure if they're better than the current nonbasics currently in place.
In my experience redundancy is worth it. It doesn't matter if it doesn't ramp, the trade off of only producing colorless is pretty unlikely to hurt us. Its not like we're that deep on pips that its going to matter a ton.
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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

Holdout Settlement and Survivor's Encampment also slipped my mind. Definitely good options here. I think the possibility of running into the issue of not having an enabler at an important time is a bigger concern than limited colored sources, given our general lack of reliance on heavy colored costs and the solid amount of fixing we have in general.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Okay. I'm gonna leave this up for today and assuming we're happy with the final product, I'll post this with the other decks and roll the next deck choices tonight.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

With no further discussion, that's a wrap. I'm pleased to see this particular deck priced out at $251.76 when updated to cheapest (prices based on tcgplayer) over on moxfield. That makes me so happy to see. Look for the v4.0 to be started today.

Modern
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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

Think I might actually build this one. I expect I'll make a couple tweaks to the manabase to align it more with my own tastes, but other than that, it seems both good and novel. I already have most of the expensive ($10+) stuff -- heck, I've got most of the stuff full stop -- including an old-border Yawgmoth that I've had no home for. Let's see how it ends up going.
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Jemolk wrote:
1 year ago
Think I might actually build this one. I expect I'll make a couple tweaks to the manabase to align it more with my own tastes, but other than that, it seems both good and novel. I already have most of the expensive ($10+) stuff -- heck, I've got most of the stuff full stop -- including an old-border Yawgmoth that I've had no home for. Let's see how it ends up going.
Will you post back here to let us know how it does? I am so curious about reactions to Lulu.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I'm tempted to run all the lists through a certain unofficial card alter resource, double sided so I can flip decks easy enough and just keep those as they'll be unchanging entities.

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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
Jemolk wrote:
1 year ago
Think I might actually build this one. I expect I'll make a couple tweaks to the manabase to align it more with my own tastes, but other than that, it seems both good and novel. I already have most of the expensive ($10+) stuff -- heck, I've got most of the stuff full stop -- including an old-border Yawgmoth that I've had no home for. Let's see how it ends up going.
Will you post back here to let us know how it does? I am so curious about reactions to Lulu.
Sure! I was already planning on it, in fact!
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