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aliciaofthevast
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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

Yeah yay to arcane signet. I'm really not sold on the spirit thing, I'm struggling with that. I liked that blowfly infestation, though even if we're supposed to be doing ramp.

How big of effect are those -1/-1 creatures from Amonket for how they interact with undying? Like Baleful Ammit and such.

I also agree with the ideal ramp package someone suggested last page I think, that would help us to not go crazy on synergy and then forget the ramp. I bet 3drinks can implement something like that for us.

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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

Yea to the Harbinger of Night. It seems like a really fun card to mess around with, and I'm perfectly happy to include some things that are a bit situational.

I kinda want to nay Arcane Signet just because I kinda hate the card for being a boring best-in-class staple and generally refuse to run it myself on those grounds. ...You know what? It's getting in regardless, so here's my two cents that can hopefully be something of an influence. Nay to Arcane Signet. Staples are boring. Would prefer a Star Compass, even though it's strictly worse, just because it's different. That's how much emphasis I tend to put on creativity and expression in EDH deckbuilding, that I will (and do, actually) run Star Compass over Arcane Signet just to make a statement.
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Dunharrow
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

yay signet
Nay Harbinger, I think. Like, if we have our engine online, we just need Cauldron of Souls at that point.
Harbinger is much weaker IMO than Black Sun's Zenith.

I think it's a neat card, but just not strong enough. It is so slow.
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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Despite my objections, Harbinger of Night has been confirmed. And, naturally, Arcane Signet has been confirmed, as if it wasn't obvious.

I'm going to make a list of participants and come back tomorrow with the next posters to be on the clock, get this a bit more organized and homogenized.

We now have 46/64 slots filled, assuming a standard base of 36 lands which is where my personal decks all start.
Jemolk wrote:
1 year ago
I kinda want to nay Arcane Signet just because I kinda hate the card for being a boring best-in-class staple and generally refuse to run it myself on those grounds. ...You know what? It's getting in regardless, so here's my two cents that can hopefully be something of an influence. Nay to Arcane Signet. Staples are boring. Would prefer a Star Compass, even though it's strictly worse, just because it's different. That's how much emphasis I tend to put on creativity and expression in EDH deckbuilding, that I will (and do, actually) run Star Compass over Arcane Signet just to make a statement.
I think there's a very fine line between not playing what everyone else is playing (which is fair!) and actively self-sabotaging "to be different", just for the sake of being different. I really struggle with this idea that I'm suppose to actively handicap myself because "everyone plays it" when, like, okay you're in U so you're not gonna play Cyclonic Rift for reasons? That's like chopping off your nose to spite your face. As a personal choice that's fine, play what you're gonna play. But in the scope of a community project, taking such a stance to actively nerf said project that everyone else is working hard on making something great that can stand on it's own. I can't understand this idea of swimming against the current to this degree. It's almost....hipsterish. Again we're not talking about a Farewell vs Cleansing Nova situation that has real tangible reasons to play one over the other or neither or both. We're talking about a proven commodity providing an unparalleled ramp effect...to a tapped rock that does an impersonation of reflecting pool but only for basic lands.

Help me understand, because I really, truly cannot grasp the concept of taking it down in power to such a stark degree. At least coldsteel heart would provide some argument being a variable choice (still incorrect, but I could at least humour the argument). Now, if the argument is Arcane Signet is overpowered, to that I agree with. 100%, a two mv untapped rock that effortlessly fixes all your colours is, very clearly, too good and far above the power spectrum of an acceptable rock. But if the rest of the table isn't on board with such a hypothesis, you're just making it harder on yourself.

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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
Help me understand, because I really, truly cannot grasp the concept of taking it down in power to such a stark degree. At least coldsteel heart would provide some argument being a variable choice (still incorrect, but I could at least humour the argument). Now, if the argument is Arcane Signet is overpowered, to that I agree with. 100%, a two mv untapped rock that effortlessly fixes all your colours is, very clearly, too good and far above the power spectrum of an acceptable rock. But if the rest of the table isn't on board with such a hypothesis, you're just making it harder on yourself.
Honestly, it's partly that I knew my nay would have absolutely no effect, and I'm okay with it having no effect. If I were capable of actually sabotaging things, given that this is a community thing, I'd be much more inclined to bite my tongue and either abstain or yea it if absolutely required. I mostly wanted to take up a position against including more staple cards than we have to, as it is my position that the game would be better if we avoided them more often in favor of less powerful but more unique things. The thing is I always, always want to push back against the very existence of format staples wherever possible, and on this count, Arcane Signet may actually offend me more than Sol Ring. At least there's the argument that decks with super heavy color requirements may not make great use of Sol Ring. That is unfortunately rare these days because WotC seems insanely gun-shy about printing things that actually have appropriately heavy color requirements (at least in sets where "heavy color costs" isn't a set mechanic), but still. I'm also generally okay with handicapping myself to make a statement. Even if it's obviously suboptimal to not play it. I'd rather play pure, unadulterated jank that actively lowers my winrate than cards that are good but annoy me from a design standpoint.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Thank you! I enjoyed this back and forth a lot. I think I get it, I definitely get some questionable looks at my lists as much as I get this overwhelming feeling of homogenization the more frequent these power creep sets come out. And j think that's where the real issue lies.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

So I went through and did a list of active participants, found someone that last mentioned a card with conqueror's galleon, and I'm so so sorry for missing you in a sea of posts. I also did a preliminary count of deck usage slots to see 11 "ramp" cards, and that's with some squinting on cards that look like ramp but are really just fixing and setting up land drops than getting ahead. At 46/64, I'd like to propose adding some very ubiquitous cards to shore up the inconsistent ramp issue; sol ring, orzhov signet, and talisman of hierarchy to speed up and not lose time on the boring stuff. If everyone agrees, I'll add those today.

Our removal package is a bit light, especially in the sweepers department, as well as card advantage. I think these should be our next departments to focus into. With that said, and now that I have a list of participants at my side, on the clock today will be @Dunadain and @toctheyounger, with the expectation that we're pulling from these two categories outlined in this paragraph.

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kirkusjones
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

I'm cool with adding the boring ramp pieces in one shot. Yea.

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

My favorite wipes are usually Hour of Revelation and Devastating Mastery as they get everything, but we are running a pretty artifact heavy deck, so more basic creature-only wipes might be in order.

Good old Wrath of God is a fine option, and probably my second choice, but my first choice would have to be Vanquish the horde, this card is usually WW when you need it and regeneration isn't terribly relevant most of the time.
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Post by Legend » 1 year ago

Yay to a ramp package, seeing as how I suggested it a couple of weeks ago. 😛
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

@Dunadain, is it safe to say that Vanquish the Horde is your pick, officially?

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
@Dunadain, is it safe to say that Vanquish the Horde is your pick, officially?
Yeah, sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

I can get behind Vanquish. +1 from me.

My suggestion is Living Death. Not specifically a board wipe, not quite a mass reanimation, but kind of the best of both. Nothing on board is safe from it, and we only have a few options presently for recursion, and it feels like this deck is kind of hosed without a board state, so it'd be nice to have redundancy in ways to get that back. We can cheese ETBs with this too, which isn't nothing.
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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

Yay to Vanquish and Living Death. This is not an official suggestion, obviously, but Aether Snap could be fun here. Clear all tokens and planeswalkers off the board, reset our counters.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Yea Vanquish the Horde and the ramp package.

I honestly like Living Death a lot, but I don't know if we capitalize on it more or less than our opponents would. I suspect that most situations where it's cast an opposing Kathril, Aspect Warper (for example) would get as much or more out of it. I don't usually like living death outside a hard EtB focused value deck. Maybe that's just me?
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

No, I'm not sure its a lock myself. I did bring it up as a conversation piece rather than a sure thing. Partly because the deck is spreading a fair way, and it'd be good to hone in a little.
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Post by Legend » 1 year ago

Vanquish the Horde yay. ww DoJ and this deck wants a couple of wipes.
Living Death Nay. This deck is hopefully, ideally resilient enough to not need it.
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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

White blasphemous act is an easy yay. I think living death is a brilliant card that does a lot for us, not the least of which is a board wipe. It's also a reset when things just don't work out perfectly and I think that sort back pocket is invaluable to not just us, but any deck relying on creatures to get the job done. I have to yay that, this deck is a living death deck.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

yay to ramp package
yay vanquish and living death

Living death is not obvious, but I generally like it in any deck that runs a fair amount of sac outlets, as we can just sac our whole board and get it all back.
That being said, I think the deck needs more free sac outlets. The three altars would be great IMO.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Vanquish the Horde and Living Death have been confirmed. We're hitting 51/64 cards now and have no one tutours.

In sticking with a need of card advantage/ramp and removal (a real dire lack of the spot variety), I'm putting @3drinks and @kirkusjones on the clock. Two bright minds that seem to maintain a keen head on their shoulders, yep.

As much as I want to throw out the incredibly under-rated Gift of Estates, I'm going into something more utilitarian and useful at any point in which we have two or more mana, and that's Night's Whisper|5dn.
Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
Living death is not obvious, but I generally like it in any deck that runs a fair amount of sac outlets, as we can just sac our whole board and get it all back. That being said, I think the deck needs more free sac outlets. The three altars would be great IMO.
I appreciate that both altars are under the price cap I set, with phyrexian the highest but still just in clearance for now. It and diabolic intent, but they clearly won't stay in range I don't think.

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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

@3drinks you're far too kind. Swords to Plowshares is my pick for today. Easily one of the best pieces of removal ever.

On the subject of altars, I'd be on board with the two mana-producing ones for sure, especially since they've come down a bit of late. Altar of Dementia (assuming that's the third one) is a little iffy for me, though. I tend to run it only in decks that want self-mill, and I don't think this deck wants that.

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Yay to Swords and nights whisper.

I'm meh on the altars. I suppose yes to the two mana altars and no to dementia?
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

Yea to Swords. It probably is the best single-target creature removal spell in the game for most purposes.

Night's Whisper, I'm less high on. It's cheap, but it only draws 2, and only does so once. Personally, I'd far rather something that costs a bit more but provides either a bigger burst of draw or a more continuous engine. A Phyrexian Arena, Damnable Pact, or Cut of the Profits; something like that. Nay to Night's Whisper. I just don't feel like it does enough to deserve the slot compared to other options, even for being 2 CMC.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Swords to Plowshares is an easy yea.

Night's Whisper is a card that reminds me of my opinion on Arcum's Astrolabe. It's generic card draw, once. Honestly I still think that something like Wall of Omens is better, despite being fewer cards by itself. If we're sacrifice looping, then having draw on low MV creatures to recycle is good. I think nay on Night's Whisper.

We already have everything else needed for some convoluted infinite combos. I would instantly yea the two mana altars in this deck if they were nominated.
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Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

Can someone refresh my memory as to what @duducrash's suggested ramp package actually was?
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