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kirkusjones
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

I think the other cycling slots should be a mix of creatures and interaction. Akroma's Blessing was the first one that sprung to mind for me. Low cycling cost and a strong effect if we choose to cast it.

With the number of cycling lands we plan on running, are we going to have a higher than normal land count?

EDIT - random thought. Reanimate still functions around Yasharn's restriction. It doesn't dodge Kunoros, Hound of Athreos, though. Something to consider, maybe.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Nay Titanoth Rex. There are better cycling cards.
Yay Fauna Shaman
Yay for GGT.

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kirkusjones
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
Nay Titanoth Rex. There are better cycling cards.
Yay Fauna Shaman
Yay for GGT.

I can't submit my card yet but I can tell you it's Good. And Great.
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Post by Henlock » 1 year ago

I'll yay fauna shaman.

I'll abstain from Golgari Grave Troll. I am not sure about more dredge since we can.control very well what we put in.our graveyards with discatd and Vile Entomber flickerings.

On the dino, I think this is a card that we should see.if making the cut once we have things more settled. A trample enable that puts itself in the graveyard and triggers the Astrals and that is a really huge trampler itself can.work well here if reanimated or granted ability countets. I'll yay it but I'd leave it near the cutting board.

I am.nominating Gravebreaker Lamia as a redundant, flickerable entomb effect. It has lifelink and a cost reducing ability we'll probably not care much about on top.of it.

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

I like Gravebreaker Lamia, but it's a bit high on MV. I'll vote Yea, but it's a bit tight in my estimation. I think that I've voted or intentionally abstained on everything else.

The timing is annoying, as I'm shifting my sleep back to normal hours so it hasn't been 24 hours yet. I'm going to post a bit early so that I don't wait until midnight. My nominate for either today or tomorrow is Undead Gladiator. It has cycling, and performs a reasonably good impression of Tortured Existence as a discard outlet. It doesn't have keywords, but I think it's a reasonable supporting card for multiple plans of cycling and discard engines.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

A few more confirms this evening.

Rogue's Passage yay - 2 nay - 2
Titanoth Rex yay - 1 nay - 3
Golgari Grave-Troll yay - 4 nay - 0
Fauna Shaman yay - 4 nay - 0

Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 1 nay - 0
Undead Gladiator (can't vote until tomorrow) yay - 0 nay - 0

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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

Ohmygosh I missed a day I think 🤧. Okay, we're cycling, we're in three color and we need fixing. So why not the old standard favorite of cycling decks, eternal dragon|scg? Yeah. Eternal Dragon final answer.

Is rogue's passage still on the list? I'm gonna issue a nay to put that thing out of its misery.

I want to like gravebreaker lamia. It's everything we want in one package. But...five mana. I don't think I'm gonna be very happy casting that very often. I think that's a nay.

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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 1 year ago

Yay on Undead Gladiator and Gravebreaker Lamia.

Having some removal be repeatable through blinking seems good, so my next nominee is Reclamation Sage. I'm torn between this one and Acidic Slime but Reclamation Sage wins out because of MV.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Yay on lamia, gladiator, and eternal dragon.

I nominate Timeless Dragon
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

Yay on Undead Gladiator, eternal dragon, timeless dragon and reclamation sage. Does that give us enough cycling? Angel of the ruins is also an interesting option.

Not sure about the Lamia due to the high mv..

Because we have some pretty key enchantments, I do think we need a tutor or two. Instead of opting for the high powered ones, I'll nominate a slide-able creature: Moon-Blessed Cleric.
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Yea on the dragon twins, undead gladiator and moon-blessed cleric. My nomination for today is Elspeth Resplendent. Her +1 distributes counters, but the -3 is the real winner in my opinion. Being able to topdeck an Astral enchantment, perhaps via Moon-Blessed Cleric and then flop it out with a shield counter to add a layer of protection to our engine seems worthwhile. The ult is just gravy, honestly.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Yea for Timeless dragon. I think the others are already confirmed. Yea for Moon-Blessed Cleric but I hope we have enough enchantments to support it.


My submission is Greater Good. Amazing with dredge, great sac outlet, great way to bin fatties from your hand.
I do think we need some sac outlets with Ozolith to help us move around counters. If we end up with any doubling season effects it also results in exponential growth very quickly (imagine Kathril coming down with 2 keywords, makes 4 counters with DS, sac Kathril, put 8 counters on Ozolith, beginning of combat put 16 counters on something).
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I was going to yay Alicia's dragon and suggest the other one, but I see that was taken care of for me. So for today, I'm going to nominate Eternal Witness for that sweet slide action. It may be boring, but it's so strong with slide that I'd call it iconic.

We also got some confirmations to make.

I'll yay for Rec Sage, Moon-Blessed Cleric, Elspeth, and Greater Good. These are all very self-explanatory cards.

Rogue's Passage yay - 2 nay - 3
Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 2 nay - 1
Undead Gladiator|ONS yay - 4 nay - 0
Eternal Dragon|SCG yay - 3 nay - 0

Reclamation Sage|TSR yay - 2 nay - 0
Timeless Dragon yay - 3 nay - 0
Moon-Blessed Cleric yay - 3 nay - 0

Elspeth, Resplendent yay - 1 nay - 0
Greater Good|USG yay - 1 nay - 0
Eternal Witness|TSR yay - 0 nay - 0

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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

A very Stone Cold "Hell Yea!" on Greater Good, Eternal Witness and Rec Sage.

When all is said and done, can we add a "deep pockets/deep collection" section? There are some cards I'm not suggesting due to the implied budgetary restrictions that some people who have the resources may want to include.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

I missed a few earlier
Yea on Lamia
Yea on EWit
Nay Elspeth in this deck, we would need a lot of low MV cards and we have a high curve already due to the strategy of cycling dragons and binning Akromas.
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

@Dunharrow take a look at the decklist on the first page, Elspeth hits so many of our key players, like the astral enchantments, the Ozolith, Rec Sage, Ewit, Fauna Shaman and Tortured Existence. I probably should have saved it for a later round to nominate, but I think we'll end up with a lot more low cost permanents than big stuff. I mean, worst case scenario we get a land.

I probably should have pitched Sterling Grove, Aura Shards, Knight of Autumn or some flavor of dork first, though.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

kirkusjones wrote:
1 year ago
@Dunharrow take a look at the decklist on the first page, Elspeth hits so many of our key players, like the astral enchantments, the Ozolith, Rec Sage, Ewit, Fauna Shaman and Tortured Existence. I probably should have saved it for a later round to nominate, but I think we'll end up with a lot more low cost permanents than big stuff. I mean, worst case scenario we get a land.

I probably should have pitched Sterling Grove, Aura Shards, Knight of Autumn or some flavor of dork first, though.
IMO 5 mana is a lot to get a random permanent and then lose the walker. Demonic Tutor would be much better as you actually get the card you need. Even if half our deck was being hit by Elspeth, I don't love the idea of 5 mana Fauna Shaman.
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Yea on Eternal Witness, Reclamation Sage, and Greater Good. All of those fit what this deck wants in my mind.

I don't have a nomination until tomorrow, but I think the hatebear subtheme is somewhat under explored with what we have so far. This matters because, as with Yasharn, if we turn off a strategy then we should minimize the effect it has on ourselves. Questions about limiting the cards per turn, noncreature that cost more than 4, tutotring, artifact abilities, and so on.
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Post by Henlock » 1 year ago

I was thinking on Reidane, God of the Worthy // Valkmira, Protector's Shield and Archon of Valor's Reach as hate pieces that also have keywords.

I'm nominating Reidane. Flying and vigilance are nice keywords, it has a bit of tax and the Valkmira side can save out bacon againat ping combos. Also. running into an opponent who plays snow basics and have them enter tapped is priceless.

Big yay on Greater Good
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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 1 year ago

Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
My submission is Greater Good. Amazing with dredge, great sac outlet, great way to bin fatties from your hand.
I do think we need some sac outlets with Ozolith to help us move around counters.
It's a bit strange to include Greater Good, which requires us to sacrifice creatures, when earlier in the thread Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord was nayed because we included Yasharn, Implacable Earth already. While no one responded to it, I also already mentioned earlier that I felt the deck was trying to do to many things at once. I personally feel we could improve the deck a lot by swapping Yasharn, Implacable Earth out for Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and just drop the hatebear idea altogether by also cutting Archon of Emeria and Kunoros, Hound of Athreos. If we do we are still trying to overlap 3 strategies: graveyard/reanimator, cycling/slide and keywords. That's challenging enough as it is.

Having said that, yay to Elspeth Resplendent as both the +1 and the -2 are relevant for this deck, and also yay to Angel of the Ruins.

I would like to nominate Yahenni's Expertise. This deck will be a bit slow out of the gates so a boardwipe to bring down the tempo a bit is nice, and this will let us follow up immediately with another ramp piece (once we get to that part, i mean we are going to ramp right?). It also allows us to play some keyword fodder if we end up with more cheap ones like Valentin, Dean of the Vein // Lisette, Dean of the Root or Stinkweed Imp and get them in the yard easily.

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

I think that Kunoros, Hound of Athreos and Yasharn, Implacable Earth are big time trap cards in this deck, because sometimes want to play from graveyard/sac.

Whenever the list gets together again I'll yay/nay.

My pick today is : Duneblast . A bit expensive mana wise but nice voltron enabler

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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
1 year ago
I personally feel we could improve the deck a lot by swapping Yasharn, Implacable Earth out for Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and just drop the hatebear idea altogether by also cutting Archon of Emeria and Kunoros, Hound of Athreos. If we do we are still trying to overlap 3 strategies: graveyard/reanimator, cycling/slide and keywords. That's challenging enough as it is.
+1

I'm not sure what's happening here either. Do we want to play stuff from the graveyard or not? Do we want to sac things or not? I don't even know what to suggest. We seem to be painting ourselves into a corner. I can't imagine this deck ever wanting to cast Kunoros, Hound of Athreos. Really, I don't know how this hatebear thing is helping us at all.

Questing Beast is my nom for today because I'm lost at it seems safe. I need sleep before yaynays.
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Post by Legend » 1 year ago

Duneblast Yay. This card was made for this deck.
Questing Beast Yay. Relevant keywords and a hecking good creature in general.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

A few confirmations here...

Gravebreaker Lamia yay - 3 nay - 1
Reclamation Sage yay - 4 nay - 0
Greater Good yay - 4 nay - 0
Eternal Witness yay - 3 nay - 0

Elspeth, Resplendent yay - 2 nay - 1
Reidane, God of the Worthy yay - 0 nay - 0
Yahenni's Expertise yay - 0 nay - 0
Duneblast yay - 1 nay - 0
Questing Beast yay - 1 nay - 0
Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
1 year ago
It's a bit strange to include Greater Good, which requires us to sacrifice creatures, when earlier in the thread Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord was nayed because we included Yasharn, Implacable Earth already. While no one responded to it, I also already mentioned earlier that I felt the deck was trying to do to many things at once. I personally feel we could improve the deck a lot by swapping Yasharn, Implacable Earth out for Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and just drop the hatebear idea altogether by also cutting Archon of Emeria and Kunoros, Hound of Athreos. If we do we are still trying to overlap 3 strategies: graveyard/reanimator, cycling/slide and keywords. That's challenging enough as it is.
I've been silently watching this very trend. Like there's a couple hate creatures added to the deck to make up a whole 2% of the deck's population and then people have called it a day. Hatebears is a valid strategy, but it's not one that just wins on the back of a single guy. Honestly, there's nothing about Kathril and the way it works that suggest Hatebears being any better or worse than any other deck. Certainly not better than Karador Hatebears, naturally. I don't think there's enough of a commitment to the strategy to justify the deck slots, especially when one of them is actively inhibiting what we're trying to do. I feel there's an under-valuing of sac outlets happening and an overvaluing of midrange Hatebears to justify it, and that's just not cutting it. We need to stop spreading ourselves so thin or else this deck is going to turn out worse than a precon from 2013.

I'd like to propose a motion to axe the Hatebears idea, and systematically replace the few slots that made it in with the aforementioned competition cards that were voted in their favour.

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