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kirkusjones
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
I mean, in my opinion, what we have right now really resembles my own deckbuilding methods. I tend to pull out cards for far too many strategies/themes and then cut down to the deck that I play, so this thread feels on-track to me. Maybe we include a 10-15 card overshoot limit, then once everyone can see the whole list we go through a round of cuts?
This is probably the way to go. Allows for some flexibility with suggestions. Speaking of which, mine for today is Sterling Grove. Protects one of our primary game plans and acts as a tutor in a pinch.

Yea Archon of Valor's Reach. Nay Spirit of the Labyrinth, as it shuts off the card draw of cycling.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Why Final Parting and not Jarad's Orders?

I am not going to weigh in on any more cards, I really don't understand what we are doing.

But if you want non-creatures to nominate, I will suggest Assassin's Trophy.
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

I guess my issue with the reanimator angle is that it doesn't really fit our commander all that well: we need the creatures in our graveyard, reanimation is a plan B (which was the argument for eerie ultimatum). Making our hatebears resilient through sliding Kathril, with Kathril being a solid threat, seems like a perfectly fine strategy. The fatty reanimator angle feels as though we'll just beeline to the obvious strongest creatures to reanimate and flicker: strong, but a tad generic imo.

I'm yaying sterling grove and the archon of Valor's reach. Spirit of the Labyrinth is a bit too hard on cycling on our own turn, so nay. Also, I agree with Dunharrow on final parting: why not Jarad's Orders? I think we can play a couple of mv 4+ cards like these because they also help us tutor for the needed hatebears.

I'll suggest a softer hatebear: Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Nice keyword and slows our opponents down.
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Post by Henlock » 1 year ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
1 year ago
I mean, in my opinion, what we have right now really resembles my own deckbuilding methods. I tend to pull out cards for far too many strategies/themes and then cut down to the deck that I play, so this thread feels on-track to me. Maybe we include a 10-15 card overshoot limit, then once everyone can see the whole list we go through a round of cuts?
I was thinking of something along this line. I always end up with more than 100 cards and make the cuts, Aiming for 115 or.so cards then having a cutting and tuning instance feels quite natural.

Yay to Archon of Valor's reach

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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

I personally thought that parting was interesting because it can find a slide to hand and keywords to the graveyard, but this is a bit of "both, both is good". On the overall direction, I guess that I'm assuming that the overshoot and trim method is viable.

Yea Assassin's Trophy if that was the nomination. We need interaction beyond proactive pieces, and it's hard to argue that flexibility.
Yea Sterling Grove, I almost missed that one and it's good at what it does. Protecting/recurring the slides is more relevant in this because ideally our other permanents are hard to interact with.

One other comment, because I didn't articulate it well in my nomination today: because we can cycle on any given turn, we can still draw 3 cards per turn cycle by cycling on each other players turns with Spirit of the Labyrinth in play. That was why I thought it could be nearly asymmetric.
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

if the plan is to play hatebears, flicker Kathril to make hatebears hexproof and indestructible, then I think we need to reconsider Yahenni's expertise. It kills more than half of our creatures, and we are creature heavy. It feels like we would rather have a silent arbiter/crawlspace/bridge package to slow down aggro. Anyway, that's just some deckbuilding philosophy, interested to see what others think.

Yea spirit of the labyrinth. It can work well with dredge since you can replace your first draw with a dredge and still cycle that turn.
Thalia is fine, I think. I really don't know hatebears so part of me thinks it's a bit weak but I don't know what I am comparing to. Abstain?
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

Ah, good point about final parting being any card, that does change things: A yay from me!

Concerning Spirit of the Labyrinth, the dredge replacing is cool, but if we don't dredge on our turn we can't cycle to slide a creature (or at least, we miss the draw) isn't that too painful?
Being able to cycle once each on other people's turn is making it quite asymmetrical, bit I'm wondering about our own turn.

And @Dunharrow, I'm in the same boat in terms of not having a lot of experience with hatebears, but isn't that also part of the fun? I probably won't play this deck in my playgroups, but stretching that part of my deckbuilding muscle is an interesting/fun challenge.
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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

I think the hatebears angle is fine as long as we're including ones that don't get in our way, so I think @Crazy Monkey is right on track with Gaddock Teeg. Also agree with @Gentle Giant on not needing to go heavy on reanimator. Maybe one or two things like Unburial Rites, but not much more. I think we'll need to cut some fat at the end of this.

@Dunharrow, would Crawlspace/Ensnaring Bridge hinder us too much maybe? EDIT: I didn't read Crawlspace. nvm, very good.

If all goes according to plan, we'll be dumping counters on our hatebears, right? I kinda wish we'd reconsider Sunblade Angel.

Kathril keeps the +1/+1 counters for herself, right? Is there anything that can move +1/+1 counters around effectively?

Yay to Sterling Grove for the slides. I reverse my yay on Final Parting and hope it gets replaced by Jarad's Orders. Nay to Spirit of the Labyrinth for shutting off our cycling.
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

RxPhantom wrote:
1 year ago
I think the hatebears angle is fine as long as we're including ones that don't get in our way, so I think @Crazy Monkey is right on track with Gaddock Teeg. Also agree with @Gentle Giant on not needing to go heavy on reanimator. Maybe one or two things like Unburial Rites, but not much more. I think we'll need to cut some fat at the end of this.

@Dunharrow, would Crawlspace/Ensnaring Bridge hinder us too much maybe? EDIT: I didn't read Crawlspace. nvm, very good.

If all goes according to plan, we'll be dumping counters on our hatebears, right? I kinda wish we'd reconsider Sunblade Angel.

Kathril keeps the +1/+1 counters for herself, right? Is there anything that can move +1/+1 counters around effectively?

Yay to Sterling Grove for the slides. I reverse my yay on Final Parting and hope it gets replaced by Jarad's Orders. Nay to Spirit of the Labyrinth for shutting off our cycling.
I am afraid of having too many fatties that don't give hexproof or indestructible. Giving Sunblade angel abilities is not super useful for a bunch of bears. I think I like Winged Shepherd more since it at least has cycling.

We can move counters by flickering Kathril with Ozolith out.
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

This may sound crazy, but if we're spending six mana for a 3/3, it better have doublestrike, indestructible or hexproof. I feel like we'd be better off with Vampire Nighthawk and/or Aerial Responder. Lower on the curve, can come down early for blocking and then maybe eat removal or a wrath for Kathril to slurp up the keywords later.

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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
RxPhantom wrote:
1 year ago
I think the hatebears angle is fine as long as we're including ones that don't get in our way, so I think @Crazy Monkey is right on track with Gaddock Teeg. Also agree with @Gentle Giant on not needing to go heavy on reanimator. Maybe one or two things like Unburial Rites, but not much more. I think we'll need to cut some fat at the end of this.

@Dunharrow, would Crawlspace/Ensnaring Bridge hinder us too much maybe? EDIT: I didn't read Crawlspace. nvm, very good.

If all goes according to plan, we'll be dumping counters on our hatebears, right? I kinda wish we'd reconsider Sunblade Angel.

Kathril keeps the +1/+1 counters for herself, right? Is there anything that can move +1/+1 counters around effectively?

Yay to Sterling Grove for the slides. I reverse my yay on Final Parting and hope it gets replaced by Jarad's Orders. Nay to Spirit of the Labyrinth for shutting off our cycling.
I am afraid of having too many fatties that don't give hexproof or indestructible. Giving Sunblade angel abilities is not super useful for a bunch of bears. I think I like Winged Shepherd more since it at least has cycling.

We can move counters by flickering Kathril with Ozolith out.
I guess we need a way to reliably obtain The Ozolith. I really like Winged Shepherd, too.
kirkusjones wrote:
1 year ago
This may sound crazy, but if we're spending six mana for a 3/3, it better have doublestrike, indestructible or hexproof. I feel like we'd be better off with Vampire Nighthawk and/or Aerial Responder. Lower on the curve, can come down early for blocking and then maybe eat removal or a wrath for Kathril to slurp up the keywords later.
My original thinking is that we'd never cast it. But since you've refreshed my memory on Vampire Nighthawk and Aerial Responder, those are definitely better.

I nominate Diabolic Intent. It's a tutor with which we can toss a relevant creature into the graveyard.
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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

I guess I'll make the obvious Beast Within suggestion.
Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
Why Final Parting and not Jarad's Orders?

I am not going to weigh in on any more cards, I really don't understand what we are doing.

But if you want non-creatures to nominate, I will suggest Assassin's Trophy.
Re: final parting vs jarad's orders I think it's because final parting can find anything but orders just finds creatures? Though with the current deck lineup that seems to be less of a distinction. I'm with you, it's getting very hard to know what's happening, people submit cards and from where I'm sitting I don't think there's a lot of communication going back and forth. Everyone just wants to submit their card and that's all. Add to that the friction I'm sensing between some of these builder philosophies and our end result is...what this deck has turned into. Or lack thereof.

I don't know. I'm confused!

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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Let's talk bears. With a cursory search, here are some options that don't affect/minimally affect our gameplan. I think we want access to our graveyard, given the fact that we are basing a lot of our plan around 2 enchantments which will eventually draw the ire of the table and we'll want to retrieve them. This also means the symmetrical tutor hate cards are out. That doesn't necessarily mean reanimator, though with all that fat at the top end of our deck, a few reanimator elements like Karmic Guide and Unburial Rites will probably punch above their weight.

Da Bears
Collector Ouphe
Archivist of Oghma
Deep Gnome Terramancer
Drannith Magistrate
Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Gaddock Teeg
Dauthi Voidwalker
Opposition Agent
Manglehorn
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Liesa, Shroud of Dusk
Esper Sentinel
Kataki, War's Wage
Grand Abolisher
Scavenging Ooze
Wandering Archaic // Explore the Vastlands
Anafenza, the Foremost
Rug of Smothering
Runic Armasaur
Dosan the Falling Leaf
Dragonlord Dromoka
Phyrexian Revoker

This is by no means an exhaustive list. There are obviously the riffs on Thalia/Thorn of Amethyst, but we have plenty of noncreature spells to add to the deck to shore up a potential weakness to wraths, indestructibility aside.

If we expand into noncreature hate options, the list obviously gets much longer.

I think we may have overestimated the amount of bears that would be playable with cycling/astral enchantments and Life from the Loam, honestly. Even now, I'm considering putting Containment Priest on the list because it turns the astrals into permanent removal, but I feel like it's just too much of a liability.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

My issue is that most of these hatebears have no keywords and no ETBs. This is fine, but then we need more tutors to make sure to bin Zetalpa every game, tutor a slide, and close the game.
I think it makes dredge worse, since we are mostly binning creatures with no keywords. Though I guess we will see when we get the finalized list.
It also makes the deck extremely dependant on casting our general and having it stick. I think we need to prioritize hexproof. Do we need Carnage Tyrant or Cragplate Baloth? Because to set this all up and cycle a card to flicker Kathril only to have it eat an exile spell... that would suck.

I am going to nay Diabolic Intent. I love the card, but why play it over Demonic Tutor when Yasharn is in our deck already? I know we can flicker Yasharn, but we might need the tutor to get the slide in the first place.
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

For some reason I thought we had more hexproof already, but a quick peek at the decklist just shows Sigarda and Sylvan Caryatid. I nominate Slippery Bogbonder. Redristributes counters, grants hexproof and has flash.

EDIT - Yea to Diabolic Intent. I agree with @Dunharrow, though. We probably also want Demonic Tutor as well. Additionally, I remember a big reason for the Yasharn include was to shut off treasures. While Collector Ouphe doesn't have any keywords, it comes down earlier than Yasharn, accomplishes the same task (and more) and doesn't mess with our gameplan. When we revise the decklist, I think we consider that swap. I'm also just tired of seeing "well, we probably shouldn't play that because Yasharn." The hateboar isn't good enough to justify excluding multiple cards that would improve our deck.

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

Nay to Diabolic Intent. Its real good card but its way above budget and isn't a must play card to justify the budget break

Yay to Slippery Bogbonder

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

As much as I want to suggest the cycling angel earlier, I'm gonna go old school with Radiant's Judgment. A very reasonable removal spell that feeds our alternate strat.

Some simple, easy yays to make that are self explanatory. AssTroph, beast within, diabolic intent are all simple and easy. think bogbender and heretic cathar are good enough with the strategy to be worth inclusion, so those are yays as well.

Archon of Valor's Reach yay - 5 nay - 1
Spirit of the Labyrinth yay - 1 nay - 3
Sterling Grove yay - 3 nay - 0

Final Parting yay - 1 nay - 1
Assassin's Trophy yay - 2 nay - 0
Thalia, Heretic Cathar yay - 1 nay - 0
Diabolic Intent yay - 2 nay - 2
Beast Within yay - 1 nay - 0
Slippery Bogbender yay - 2 nay - 0
Radiant's Judgment yay - 0 nay - 0
kirkusjones wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT - Yea to Diabolic Intent. I agree with @Dunharrow, though. We probably also want Demonic Tutor as well. Additionally, I remember a big reason for the Yasharn include was to shut off treasures. While Collector Ouphe doesn't have any keywords, it comes down earlier than Yasharn, accomplishes the same task (and more) and doesn't mess with our gameplan. When we revise the decklist, I think we consider that swap.
Worth noting, demonic tutour misses the $30 price cutoff we set, which makes diabolic intent the next-best-in-class™ for the effect given it's just below the mark at $28.
kirkusjones wrote:
1 year ago
I'm also just tired of seeing "well, we probably shouldn't play that because Yasharn." The hateboar isn't good enough to justify excluding multiple cards that would improve our deck.
This is what I've been saying, but it's been ignore. This card is vastly at odds with us in a myriad of ways but people see ETB and they try to force it. "If it doesn't have ETB it's worthless". Which is a fine outlook in Karador, but we're not in Karador or Meren, we're on Kathril.

Next deck I think I'm going to try a different format to help with this.

Modern
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 1 year ago

Yea Slippery Bogbonder, Beast Within, and Radiant's Judgment. These make sense.

Abstain on Thalia, Heretic Cathar. I think that it's on theme, but the effect is a bit less of the hard hatebear than I think we could run and protect. I am open to be convinced, so I won't vote yet.

My nomination today is the last of the hatebears that I wanted to consider when the subtheme was proposed: Drannith Magistrate. It's on the line of acceptable socially depending on playgroup, but it shuts off many strategies and is inherently asymmetric.
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Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

Assassin's Trophy yay
Diabolic Intent yay
Beast Within yay
Slippery Bogbender yay
Radiant's Judgment yay

Although Yasharn actually synergizes with the slide plan, it is becoming more and more of an issue. Kunoros might have the same issue, but at least provides a good set of keywords and hating on the grave is still solid. A bit of a shame that the only two that really synergize mechanically with slide/Kathril are also at odds with other stuff we're aiming to do.
Concerning kunoros though, if we ditch Yasharn for sac outlets, saccing a hatebear because it shuts down something we want to do becomes an option. This makes Kunoros still a good include imo.

I've never seen Cragplate Baloth! We don't have a whole lot of haste yet either, so I'll nominate that (it's been a day on my side of the pond).
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Kathril sadly doesn't care about haste.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Bogbonder can also be flickered with slide, pretty good include. Yea!
yea Beast Within and Radiant's judgement
Yea Drannith Magistrate
I didn't know Kathril didn't grant haste. What a let down. I am guessing we can swap Cragplate Baloth for Carnage Tyrant? We really need hexproof enablers.

Today I nominate Sylvan Reclamation, pretty self explanatory. I am never upset to see this card.
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

kirkusjones wrote:
1 year ago
Kathril sadly doesn't care about haste.

*Sad noises*


Yeah, I'll swap it to Carnage Tyrant then.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Stopping in here before I go off to FNM to make some confirms.

Some easy yay votes here (magistrate, tyrant, sylvan rec). Can I suggest someone to nominate Thrun, the Last Troll or at least Troll Ascetic? Someone should have been suggested sun titties too already. I really liked the previous discussion around Vampire Nighthawk and Aerial Responder too. I think these are both much more interesting than some of the dopey midrange 4-6mv creatures we have in the deck already. And they serve to make us have a much more smoother early to mid game transition.

I am such a big, big fan of Sylvan Reclamation, and I'm so glad that somebody finally got it onto the list!

Assassin's Trophy yay - 3 nay - 0
Diabolic Intent yay - 3 nay - 2
Beast Within yay - 4 nay - 0
Slippery Bogbonder yay - 5 nay - 0
Radiant's Judgment yay - 3 nay - 0

Final Parting yay - 1 nay - 1
Thalia, Heretic Cathar yay - 1 nay - 0
Drannith Magistrate yay - 2 nay - 0
Carnage Tyrant yay - 2 nay - 0
Sylvan Reclamation yay - 2 nay - 0

Here's the current deck so you can see jut where it's at right now.


Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

Move to strike Yasharn, Implacable Earth. It has simultaneously dominated and hamstrung this deck since the beginning. It's a great hatebear but is clearly at odds with the deck that we're trying to make, and a good step toward salvaging it starts with ditching Yasharn.

I'm not sure if it's even in the 'rules' for me to do this. If a swap is necessary, I'll put up Aura of Silence|54599.

Yay to Drannith Magistrate (ignoring personal ethics). Reluctant yay on Thalia, Heretic Cathar because we already have so many creatures, and hopefully we can cut the fat later. Yay on Carnage Tyrant and Sylvan Reclamation.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

A few confirms to make. Drannith, Sylvan Rec, and Tyrant have been voted in. As Final Parting has now been tabled for two days, I'm exercising my executive action to also confirm it into the list.

For today's suggestion, I'm proposing the aforementioned Winged Shepherd. It's a creature but not really a creature, it's self-binning with two keywords, it's a slide piece, there's no reason we shouldn't be using this, and if you do disagree, I'm very eager to read your synopsis opposing it.

Petition to remove Yasharn from the deck yay - 1 nay - 0
Thalia, Heretic Cathar yay - 2 nay - 0
Winged Shepherd yay - 0 nay - 0
Final Parting yay - 1 nay - 1
Drannith Magistrate yay - 3 nay - 0
Carnage Tyrant yay - 3 nay - 0
Sylvan Reclamation yay - 3 nay - 0

RxPhantom wrote:
1 year ago
Move to strike Yasharn, Implacable Earth. It has simultaneously dominated and hamstrung this deck since the beginning. It's a great hatebear but is clearly at odds with the deck that we're trying to make, and a good step toward salvaging it starts with ditching Yasharn.

I'm not sure if it's even in the 'rules' for me to do this. If a swap is necessary, I'll put up Aura of Silence|54599.
I'd actually suggest aura shards|inv as the swap as it synergizes more with slide. I hate that card, but I identify it's correct. Obviously I second this motion.

Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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