Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

[DirkGently]

Time Ebb is a sorcery AND creature-only. This is two major degrees better even ignoring the other modes, and the other modes are really good (the grave hate isn't exactly amazing but hey, sometimes that's what you need).

I don't necessarily think it's better than beast within but it's definitely very strong.

[Hawk]

Okay, thinking more about it I think I'm too hard on Endless Detour. The comparison to Commit // Memory is apt; I generally like that card but the Time Twister bit is rarely used by me, and it's also a good shout that this is many degrees better than Time Ebb and closer to Unexpectedly Absent + Memory Lapse. I really doubt the gravehate piece will come up that often, but 1/1000 games isn't zero and a "reclaim" on our own Wrath or better answer might happen more often. Like Dirk said, I think it's solidly in the middle of removal - at 3 MV I will continue to prefer Beast Within/Generous Gift and Bant Charm alongside our swath of 1 and 2 MV removal and counters, but it's definitely better than Commit and possibly better than some of the slower, durdlier 3+ MV counters I run now.

[TheGildedGoose]

In Too Deep is so close, but falls just shy of being playable to me. Split second is, of course, incredible, but being limited to two permanent types and allowing them the option to sacrifice it make it too easy to get out of in my opinion. These sorts of cards are most effective on problematic commanders and allowing them the option to sac it (and draw a card for their trouble, no less) is less than exciting.

[Hawk]

Yeah, In Too Deep gets a pass from me too. I feel like Darksteel Mutation, Imprisoned in the Moon, and Song of the Dryads are necessary evils to remove a troublesome commander and they all sorta corner the market on this effect. They're so good because they are hard to break - the fear with these effects is spending hard-earned mana on the next-best versions of this, say a Witness Protection, Kenrith's Transformation, Swift Reconfiguration, or Tamiyo's Compleation and then your opponent just ends up saccing the card to an altar to immediately break it making this a glorified Doom Blade. The fact that In Too Deep gives them a built-in sac outlet is basically awful and makes it worse than most other versions of this effect. Given that Out of Time exists now as the hands-down best way to handle annoying commanders I can't imagine ever going Deep enough to run In Too Deep.

Still impressive how good this set is though:

New staples (imo):

• Endless Detour (handily replaces and obsoletes Commit // Memory, Memory Lapse, and/or Unexpectedly Absent from most builds)
• Spara's Headquarters (triland is tri)
• Out of the Way (near-strictly-better than Blink of an Eye/Into the Roil as cheap cantripping disruption)

Cards I want to test:

• An Offer You Can't Refuse (2 treasures ain't nothing, but shaving a mana off negate is pretty good)
• Tenuous Truce (I'm generally down on on-board engines like this, but it's very much in our wheelhouse)

Cards I, personally, don't want but which are budget/interesting options

• Depopulate (seems largely worse than Shatter the Sky and boardwipes are stacked, but maybe a budget consideration?)
• Case the Joint (I think this is generally worse than Glimmer of Genius which itself is far down the draw list, but Inspiration with Upside is a budeget option)
• Even the Score (seems mostly worse than Sphinx's Revelation, Pull from Tomorrow, and Blue Sun's Zenith as "big draw" for us, but worth considering)
• Witness Protection (as I mentioned, this doesn't seem great but it's a great budget card and the next-best version of this effect after the Big 4)
• Brokers Charm (I'm meh on it but it might be others cup of tea especially if they run more than 0 non-commander creatures)
• Brokers Hideout (budget option that's mostly better than Evolving Wilds for players running it)

That just leaves the "bait" as In Too Deep and Broker's Confluence which is really, really meh for us.

[DirkGently]

Is spoiler season complete? Not sure if we're done with the commander stuff. Anyway, here's my rundown:

Spara's Headquarters
Fetchable triland that gives us a little (albeit very expensive) cycling value off loam. Solid.

Endless Detour
Most flexible answer to date, at a reasonable cost. Biggest downside is that it's not a permanent solution, but that can have political upsides too so it's not all bad. I'm not sure if I necessarily prefer it to Commit // Memory though. Ofc they're really similar, but putting the card an extra spot down can be a significant upside, and while the aftermath doesn't come up often, it's definitely not nothing. If you get low on cards, if someone has a 20-card hand, if you're running out of cards in deck (if you aren't running Nexus of Fate or it got exiled somehow), or if you're in an archenemy situation where you want to refill your allies' hands efficiently without bouncing Phelddagrif. Plus the cost is more flexible. On the other hand, detour costs 1 less and can hit a graveyard card, although that's a very weak mode imo. I dunno. I plan to run both, they're both good.

Brokers Charm
Technically playable for someone building this from scratch but there are definitely better options.

Brokers Hideout
It's a fetchland on a budget with some small upsides. It's ok.

Even the Score
It's fine.

Depopulate
It's fairly cheap and you can suicide Phelddagrif for a card. Better options exist but it's ok.

Out of the Way
Personally I'm not into it. The good thing about Into the Roil is that it costs 2 reliably when it NEEDS to cost 2. This costs 2 randomly, when you often won't care about it. Reliably costing less when you need it to >>> reliably drawing you a card. I never consider 4mv cantripping bounce spells because they need the flexibility imo, and this will be that too frequently for my liking. Can't target your own permanents either, so no saving your telepathy before a wipe lol.

Mysterious Limousine
This is similar to Tawnos's Coffin as a way to either eat someone's commander permanently (until they remove the limo or you decide they're a lesser threat) or repeatedly eat their commander. As a means of suppression it's interesting, ofc you need to be able to attack safely but since it's not restricted in who it can attack, someone's probably motivated to let you through, or at least bonk into a hippo you provided them. Mostly worse than rod but another interesting option.

An Offer You Can't Refuse
For decks wanting to keep up with cEDH nonsense, this is really strong. Unnecessary for casual groups, but you might be able to use the treasures to smooth things over in casual settings, who knows.

Run Out of Town
Another one where there are many better options, but the flexibility is significant and it's easy to acquire.

Witness Protection
The cost is amazing, but usually that's a lesser concern for this type of effect. If you need a commander dead on turn 1, just use regular removal.

Tenuous Truce
Adorable. I'm not big on such concrete forms of cooperation, though. You want people to be wanting to be on your good side - this card says "THIS guy is on my good side, and the rest of you aren't". I guess you can undo it by attacking but that's clunky. And I don't love forced draw since it can overflow us. All that said, when you're in a situation that dictates a clear ally, this is damn efficient at what it does.

smuggler's share
I don't think catchup value necessarily suits this deck. It's nice insofar as it's usually nonthreatening, but usually I'd rather have more direct control over my resources.

Brokers Confluence
Dammit.

in too deep
If it had flash it'd be a fine creature removal. As-is, it's a good card but it just doesn't really fit into the slots we care about since it's not an instant and it doesn't deal with anything permanently.

Sinister Concierge
Nobody has mentioned this one but I think it's really interesting. It's cheap, you can play it whenever you want, it's hard to get rid of, and it kinda does the same thing that the limo does where it's either repeatable commander removal, repeatable...temporary creature gone-ness..., or permanent commander removal if you have a stifle and they don't return it to the CZ. And ofc since it's normally a temporary removal, it's not necessarily going to freak people out TOO much. The biggest downside is that we're not really going to run any sac outlets, so actually getting it to die might not be trivial. Ofc you can attack or block with it if you have a cooperator but that's functionally sorcery speed. You can kill it yourself, but you're probably better off just using the kill spell on the target unless it's indestructible or something. I want to figure out a way to abuse it because it's got some serious upside, but it might not quite fit? Idk. Really cool design, though.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I personally really enjoy our removal that gives a trivial thing in exchange for eating their stuff. Swords, Path, Beast Within, Generous Gift, Swan Song, pongify, rapid hybridization, etc. all offer some form of refund, and Stubborn Denial will be replaced with An Offer A$AP in my build. Mana is still very dangerous to give, but I am nothing if not a lover of themes.

Endless Detour will replace something, I dunno what yet. The triome will come in with two basics and replace my cycling deserts. That's all I'm adding from Capenna. Very light but filling set this one.

[DirkGently]

Just realised that Endless Detour is also recursion in a pinch. Toss a board wipe on top eot. So that's a somewhat more useful mode than I assumed.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Did some A+ trading today, and picked up a Force of Negation, Force of Will, and a Mana Drain for my build. Now it's really just Force of Vigor I gotta get, and I'm not even sure I run enough Green cards to meet the pitch requirements with any regularity...

[DirkGently]

May as well do a review for the latest set, though there's not a lot going on here.

Jaheira's Respite is definitely a cool effect, but I know I don't run nearly enough basics to make it worthwhile, even if we did want such an effect.

Noble Heritage is better than Orzhov Advokist insofar as it dies to fewer wipes, but I still don't think the effect really does something we need.

Decent card elsewhere, but I can't imagine Bane's Contigency being useful given how unprofitable targeting phelddagrif is to begin with.

Cut a Deal is fine I guess, I'm not gonna play it though.

I guess Maze's End is now an actual option. Personally I hate the card, though, and also it seems like suicide unless you're significantly more powerful than your playgroup.

Venture Forth is probably the only card I actually find interesting out of the set for this deck. Probably not quite worth it, but slow repeatable ramp is a nice little value engine.

[Hawk]

Agreed there's nothing of interest here. I'm really excited to test Cut a Deal in a variety of Boros/Selesnya/Naya/mono-white builds, but it's all wrong for Phelddy. We want to use draw to reload and win the 1-v-1, which is where this card is at its worst; we rarely will want or need to cast this in the mid-game where it is a "Harmonize on a budget". I value instant-speed a lot too; my current list doesn't run Harmonize so I can't imagine running this either.

I do want to take a second to bemoan how sad Split the Spoils made me. When I first read it I thought it was an amazing instant-staple: graveyard-based Fact or Fiction would be SICK. But a reread revealed it is actually utter garbage:

- Permanents only for this deck means it's a glorified Life from the Loam most of the time.
- Sorcery speed is not a deal-breaker on regrowth effects, but instant is always preferred.
- You divvy and opponents choose, instead of Fact or Fiction where opponents divvy and you choose. In other words, barring collusion or alliance this doesn't ever give you what you want most. Now, that's not impossible - my wife has managed to score a "draw 5" off Fact or Fiction more than once! But also, we tend to want those reloads to be more reliable in the endgame too and this won't be.

The wait for a card that's "better" than Colossal Skyturtle/Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary / Wildest Dreams continues...sigh...

[TheGildedGoose]

The wait for a card that's "better" than Colossal Skyturtle/Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary / Wildest Dreams continues...sigh...

We had joy, we had fun, we had Seasons Past in our deck since day one.

Well, that's not true, but it does rhyme. I'm also fond of Once and Future.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

So my local shop has a few copies of Time Spiral for sale and I was thinking of acquiring one. Who among us thinks it could be worth a slot? I was thinking it might be a nice tidy hand reload that leaves our mana open and yields some incidental graveyard hate. Not quite as good in the 1v1 stage, but still not terrible as it allows our shields to remain up at least.

[TheGildedGoose]

Is it really much better than the considerably cheaper Day's Undoing, given that you'd only be casting it in the late game anyway where the difference in mana left up might be negligible? I don't think I'd run either, honestly, as the thought of refilling my opponents' hands with things I have to deal with all over again is nauseating.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@Thegildedgoose Yeah, you're probably right. I admit, it is easy to underestimate the tangible drawback of wheel effects. It just looks so cool behind that glass case, I figured I'd at least try to justify it.

Oh well, I suppose it's time to hike up my drawers and start looking for duals then. Can't play snow duals forever.

[DirkGently]

Wheels are pretty contrary to what we want to do, for 2 reasons.

First, they give opponents indiscriminate card advantage. Sometimes it might be okay because the opponents we want to sabotage have more cards and our current allies are low, but that won't be true reliably.

Second, we shouldn't be in a position where we want to wheel because that means we're low on answers. Our hand and our land are our only resources, so allowing ourselves to get low is a sign that we've failed to have enough draw. Our plays are usually driven by necessity, so holding back isn't generally an option. So what happens if we play the same way but don't draw the wheel? We're screwed, that's what.

And if we do have sufficient draw, now the wheel is generally a bad draw that replaces our sculpted hand with a random one, and motivates to spew off removal at subpar targets, which isn't very politically savvy,

So yeah, I would never play a wheel in Phelddagrif, no matter how good it is otherwise.

[Hawk]

Looking at DOM, my list of wants is small personally:

• Leyline Binding - I don't think I'd clamor to replace Cast Out with this since it's not reliably 4 mana and I like the cycling late. A marginal consideration if one is desperate or on a budget.
• Ertai's Scorn - among the "Cancels with upside this is (meta-depending) probably better than a lot of cancels (Dissipate, Faerie Trickery, Void Shatter, Dissolve, Sinister Sabotage) although still worse than Voidslime, Disallow, and Wash Away. If I get one it's likely in as I've been looking to replace Dissolve and Out of Bounds but it's not a card one needs to actively seek out imo.
• Silver Scrutiny - I see no reason to run this over its instant-speed counterparts (Sphinx's Revelation is the champ and there's lots of other good stuff), as it is only Instant Speed at X<4. But it is flexible and certainly worth consideration.
• Radiant Grove, Idyllic Beachfront, Tangled Islet - more budget duals always make my heart sing. Less exciting for a budget Phelldy since we don't run stuff like Farseek/Nature's Lore/Wood Elves/Three Visits/Skyshroud Claim to exploit them. That means they're only good if you're running a full cadre of fetches, which implies you probably have the budget to run Shocks + Tango lands + Spara's Headquarters as well right?

[TheGildedGoose]

Another fetchble UW dual, even one that enters tapped, is usually welcome.

[DirkGently]

Yep, this set looks like a complete whiff from where I'm sitting. There are some mediocre budget options but certainly nothing I'll be adding to my decklist.

Mostly I think it's an issue of low power level overall. Sets like MH2 really spoil us for choice, but it's hard to get a viable control spell through standard at this point. Doesn't help that a lot of the synergies of this set are tied up with things we don't care about, like tribal, domain/5c, and legends matter, so getting a good value engine that we can use was a lot less likely too. The standout land is also pretty useless (Plaza of Heroes) since Phelddagrif comes with top-tier built-in protection. I guess I wouldn't fault someone for playing it, but it's not exciting.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

After the goldmine of Kamigawa, I'm okay with a whiff.

[duduprec]

Wow, what a thread! Just passing by to say that I loved the theme, the political side, everything seems a blast to play with. I am certainly going to give it a try with a budget version first and follow the topic.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Wow, what a thread! Just passing by to say that I loved the theme, the political side, everything seems a blast to play with. I am certainly going to give it a try with a budget version first and follow the topic.

Good to have you aboard and welcome to the best overall control deck on MTGN! Feel free to throw up a list when you've got one handy, this thread is great for farming feedback on both gameplay and card choices.

Also, when you do get a list posted, be sure to link it in your signature. We disciples of the great political hippo have to represent in order to cast off the unholy stereotype of group hug.

On another note, what does everyone think of Personal Tutor ? I don't own one or anything, but I recently remembered it existed and figured one could be cool if an affordable copy came my way. Sorcery speed hurts a whole lot though.

[Dunadain]

Wow, what a thread! Just passing by to say that I loved the theme, the political side, everything seems a blast to play with. I am certainly going to give it a try with a budget version first and follow the topic.

Good to have you aboard and welcome to the best overall control deck on MTGN! Feel free to throw up a list when you've got one handy, this thread is great for farming feedback on both gameplay and card choices.

Also, when you do get a list posted, be sure to link it in your signature. We disciples of the great political hippo have to represent in order to cast off the unholy stereotype of group hug.

On another note, what does everyone think of Personal Tutor ? I don't own one or anything, but I recently remembered it existed and figured one could be cool if an affordable copy came my way. Sorcery speed hurts a whole lot though.

What sorceries are you running though?

I run 12, which seems like a decent number until you realize that 8 of them are boardwipes, 2 of them are tutors, one is Life from the Loam, and one is Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary.

I suppose tutor for Merchant Scroll → tutor for what I actually want isn't any more mana intensive than Solve the Equation.

[TheGildedGoose]

On another note, what does everyone think of Personal Tutor ? I don't own one or anything, but I recently remembered it existed and figured one could be cool if an affordable copy came my way. Sorcery speed hurts a whole lot though.

If I could plop down $90 on one I would, but I'm running Seasons Past which greatly enhances the card's playability. I suppose 90% of the time it's an extra copy of Loam, but I don't think I'd run it in a more traditional Dirk list.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I think you folks are right: most of my targets would be board wipes and I don't have any over-the-top raw power like Goose, so it's probably too conspicuous to really be very useful. Damn, that's another fancy blue card that just doesn't fit.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

So I have conceded to the appeal of lategame mass recursion; Seasons Past is too cool to deny. I wanted more lategame draw and I don't think I can do better than the best 7 things I've already played. In it goes, up until it backfires.