Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

[Dunadain]

So I have conceded to the appeal of lategame mass recursion; Seasons Past is too cool to deny. I wanted more lategame draw and I don't think I can do better than the best 7 things I've already played. In it goes, up until it backfires.

I really should try it at some point, I'm thinking about throwing Once and Future back in my deck which is probably a bit more responsible of an option.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

So I have conceded to the appeal of lategame mass recursion; Seasons Past is too cool to deny. I wanted more lategame draw and I don't think I can do better than the best 7 things I've already played. In it goes, up until it backfires.

I really should try it at some point, I'm thinking about throwing Once and Future back in my deck which is probably a bit more responsible of an option.

I think each Phelddagrif deck can run exactly one apostasy and still slide under the radar. Seasons Past just seems the best of them for me, given how all-in I am on the loam/intuition plan. I say try it and report back!

Also, throw up your list some time. I would love to see what choices you've made and where we differ!

[Dunadain]

So I have conceded to the appeal of lategame mass recursion; Seasons Past is too cool to deny. I wanted more lategame draw and I don't think I can do better than the best 7 things I've already played. In it goes, up until it backfires.

I really should try it at some point, I'm thinking about throwing Once and Future back in my deck which is probably a bit more responsible of an option.

I think each Phelddagrif deck can run exactly one apostasy and still slide under the radar. Seasons Past just seems the best of them for me, given how all-in I am on the loam/intuition plan. I say try it and report back!

Also, throw up your list some time. I would love to see what choices you've made and where we differ!

I will, thinking I should make a post with my list, talk about all my choices that aren't standard, and keep it updated, so I can have a link in my sig to it.

[DirkGently]

I think each Phelddagrif deck can run exactly one apostasy and still slide under the radar.

This gave me a good chuckle.

Remember, Phelddagrif is watching

Obviously more powerful stuff like SP could be fine depending how your group reacts to it. More powerful metas can tolerate or require more powerful value engines.

[Dunadain]

Also, throw up your list some time. I would love to see what choices you've made and where we differ!

I will, thinking I should make a post with my list, talk about all my choices that aren't standard, and keep it updated, so I can have a link in my sig to it.

It is done, tell me what you think! I'm thinking about cutting Fact or Fiction and maybe Telepathy (gasp!) Idk, sometimes Telepathy is cool, other times it's just kinda silly, and a lot of people really don't like playing against it.

[DirkGently]

Had some thoughts about Vanquish the Horde I was curious to get a second opinion on.

Namely, I don't think it's as good as it looks on paper. With something like Blasphemous Act, the big selling point is that you can board wipe and then develop a board state first with the mana savings (well, that or Repercussion ftw). Which isn't really something we care about.

I think it kinda falls into the same gap as Fierce Guardianship where it's a great deal, but not at the time we care about it. The upside is that it's theoretically a 2-mana board wipe, but probably only around turn 5+. But the the downside is that, when you just need it to kill 1-2 creatures because your opponents are playing creature-light decks, or must-answer commanders that require constant removal, it can cost 6+ mana.

Wrath of God isn't fancy, but 4 mana is usually about the amount of mana I want to pay for a wipe, and paying less isn't necessarily a huge upside since I usually don't need to cast a bunch of other things in the same turn, or keep the shields quite as far up post-wipe since the board is probably pretty clear. If you could cast vanquish for 2 on turn 4 that would be cool, since you could leave up other answers, but I don't think that happens very often.

Basically, the situations are:

-Cast vs biggish boards mid/late for 2, feels cool but doesn't really matter.
-Cast vs a few important creatures mid/early for ~4, same as WoG
-Cast (or want to cast) vs a priority target and/or very early but costs 6 and sucks.

Hour of Devastation I think is in another league because of its complete wipe capacity. The ability to cost 2 instead of 3 is basically meaningless, by the time we're casting either it probably doesn't matter, 3 is plenty cheap enough for a wipe.

Anyway, thoughts?

[Legend]

Hour of Devastation I think is in another league . . .

Huh?

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Hour of Devastation I think is in another league . . .

Huh?

He meant Hour of Revelation

On topic: I think Vanquish is useful in that when it costs two, it allows us to hold up answer mana and/or redeploy Phelddagrif. IMHO though, it's not quite good enough to hang out alongside the best anyhow. Creature-only wipes have to be really good, instant speed, and/or get around common protections, and Vanquish can only ever be a 2 mana Day of Judgment at its best.

[Hawk]

I haven't had occasion to try Vanquish the Horde on it but I'm high on it and think it's still very good. CMC of our wipes matters even though we don't care about "rebuilding", because in my observation of my wife's superior piloting skills:

- It is critical to be able to bounce Pheldyy, wipe, and then in the deep-game recast him with U still up to bounce him again if need be. So the cheaper the wraths, the easier it is to get that play pattern online.
- It is critical to be able to wipe and then also answer the next wave of threats.
- In the end game, sometimes you need to dig for the answer so the wrath being cheap helps there too.

I think it's still worse than Supreme Verdict (uncounterable is big game), Hour of Revelation (wiping all permanents is amazing), and the good instant-speed wipes of Evacuation, Rout, Cyclonic Rift (instant speed is worth almost any cost), so it's not a top 5 wipe but I'd comfortably call it a top 10 wipe and suspect it's probably functionally better than the other 4-drop wraths (Wrath of God, Day of Judgment, Devastating Mastery) and the bad instant speed wraths (Perplexing Test, Comeuppance, Fated Retribution). At any rate I'd call it near-strictly-better than Day of Judgment since the situations where it is more than 4 will be quite rare.

I will say that my meta tends to be a lot more 60-75% ish, with decks more often at the high end of precon and with combat and creature-based combo almost always being the win cons. Vanquish the Horde is much better in this sort of meta, and much worse if your meta is heavier on spell-based combo, cEDH strategies, and efficient voltron machines. But I absolutely like it a ton more than a lot of the "value" wraths like Akroma's Vengeance, Farewell, Cleansing Nova, Play of the Game, Ondu Inversion // Ondu Skyruins and it's currently at the tip-top of my acquireboard for the deck alongside Wash Away.

[Dunadain]

I haven't had any complaints with Vanquish the Horde but I almost never have had to cost it for more than 2.

[Dunadain]

So I've been thinking.

Played a game where the monarch was introduced somehow, and I found myself in a 1v1 situation a lot earlier than I had hoped, but I managed to pull through, largely thanks to the monarch. Drawing an extra card per turn is how we usually close out the end-game, but usually that comes at a hefty mana commitment, a whopping 6 mana a turn when you're using Arch of Orazca. Monarch is free but, of course, can be stolen from you. In the late 1v1, however, we should be able to keep it against most decks.

So… Throne of the High City? Not as handy as the other draw lands early game, but as a finisher? Idk, the utility land slots are probably the most competitive slots in the deck, but it's really strong and there's no need to activate it before you are confident you can keep it.

Sacrificing the land is also a real cost…

I'm not denying that the card has some pretty huge CONs but that game I wouldn't have stood a chance without the monarch, so idk, maybe there's something there.

Edit: also I've thought some more about Vanquish the Horde and I'm starting to agree, I still think it's strong, and a great option, but I'm really heavy on wipes at the moment and Vanquish the Horde is probably the weakest one, so I might cut it for something else. IDK what yet tho.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm back. I acquired an Intuition. It's good.

Here's my current list:

The War on Hugs

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Phelddagrif

Lands: 46

1 Command Tower

1 Spara's Headquarters

1 Scattered Groves

1 Temple Garden

1 Glacial Fortress

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Irrigated Farmland

1 Prairie Stream

1 Breeding Pool

1 Arid Mesa

1 Flooded Strand

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Polluted Delta

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Windswept Heath

1 Wooded Foothills

1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

1 Desert of the Indomitable

1 Desert of the Mindful

1 Desert of the True

1 Lonely Sandbar

1 Secluded Steppe

1 Tranquil Thicket

1 Arch of Orazca

1 Bonders' Enclave

1 Boseiju, Who Endures

1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire

1 Otawara, Soaring City

1 Scavenger Grounds

1 Kor Haven

1 Mystic Sanctuary

2 Forest

2 Plains

9 Island

Removal: 16

1 Nature's Claim

1 Path to Exile

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Chain of Vapor

1 Pongify

1 Rapid Hybridization

1 Unexpectedly Absent

1 Blink of an Eye

1 Into the Roil

1 Reality Shift

1 Song of the Dryads

1 Beast Within

1 Generous Gift

1 Council's Judgment

1 Bant Charm

1 Endless Detour

Board Wipes: 9

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Out of Time

1 Comeuppance

1 Supreme Verdict

1 Evacuation

1 Rout

1 Devastating Mastery

1 Farewell

1 Hour of Revelation

Counterspells: 15

1 An Offer You Can't Refuse

1 Stubborn Denial

1 Swan Song

1 Wash Away

1 Counterspell

1 Mana Drain

1 Negate

1 Dovin's Veto

1 Disallow

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Forbid

1 Force of Negation

1 Voidslime

1 Cryptic Command

1 Mystic Confluence

Draw: 5

1 Life from the Loam

1 Fact or Fiction

1 Memory Deluge

1 Seasons Past

1 Dig Through Time

Tutor: 5

1 Mystical Tutor

1 Merchant Scroll

1 Muddle the Mixture

1 Intuition

1 Solve the Equation

Sustain: 3

1 Maze of Ith

1 Moment's Peace

1 Pulse of the Fields

Approximate Total Cost:

re: Vanquish the Horde: it's fine, but it's just a discount wipe sometimes. I value consistency. Blasphemous Act in red is great because they don't have a lot of options otherwise, but luckily in white, we do. I don't run it.

re: monarch/Throne of the High City: I vote no. It just seems unnecessary. An extra card every turn for a one-time investment sounds like a decent deal but in the late game 1v1 I don't have problems with mana. It's probably comparable to Arch of Orazca I suppose.

re: Seasons Past: This card rules. Pasting for Solve the Equation and 3-5 control spells in the late game has never lost me the game. I concede that it could be winmore, but it also speeds up those last few turns, as well.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Intuition is the deck's last true power spike. No other card felt quite as gamechanging to the overall strategy as that one did. Just imagine if they'd free gifts! Oh what a world that would be.

[DirkGently]

Mentioned my Phelddagrif primer on reddit the other day and had someone remark that it had a big impact on how they play. Fun to know that it's had an impact outside of our own little sphere

[DirkGently]

Brothers war review...man there's a lot of associated sets to look at. Gah this game is too complicated. Luckily, this deck is simple.

tl;dr nothing is good.

Loran of the Third Path - really solid card overall, and technically does a couple things we're interested in. Still, I can't see running a creature.

Soul Partition - Funky removal spell. Pretty versatile, and better than a bounce spell I guess. Some potential politics in the form of "we gotta stop him before he can recast". Curious about opinions on this one.

Urza's Sylex - Global wipes are great, idk how much the land part is helpful though. The second clause is obviously useless, and we basically must activate immediately so it's functionally 7 mv. If you think the land clause is really good then it could be worth it, otherwise there are a lot of better options imo.

Hurkyl's Final Meditation - UGH I wish this was better. In theory it's the sort of thing we want - instant-speed global wipe, ending our turn doesn't matter much, it can get even more upside, and the biggest con is mana, something we're usually okay with. Buuut...honestly I think the cost is just too high. Ten mana is absurd. It's not even a permanent answer to things, except for whatever spell you counter with the end-turn clause. I dunno, I want to like it, but a sorcery-speed wipe is only worth 3-4 mana even ignoring the turn-ending clause, and 10 for an instant-speed wipe that doesn't even kill things is seriously weak sauce. If 10 mana let you exile the board instead of bounce it, sure, I'll pay 10 for that. But for bounce? I just don't think it gets there.

Weakstone's Subjugation - Damn efficient neutralization. Not versatile enough, though.

Titania's Command - Good card...for a different deck. Pour one out for the command cycle. What a bunch of garbage.

Defabricate - interesting, versatile counterspell. Probably doesn't make the cut, but it's an option.

Demolition Field - could be run instead of Strip Mine etc. Kind of dumb that it can't hit basics though.

So yeah, crap mostly. Maybe soul partition has some value?

[Dunadain]

Is anyone still running Wipe Away?

I think comparing Soul Partition to bounce spells is pretty accurate, and I'm only running the two Into the Roils because bounce spells are just SO disappointing in the late game, but they are handy in the early/mid so I do like the cantriping ones.

I think both Into the Roil and Blink of an Eye are better than Soul Partition.

I do think Soul Partition is roughly on the same level as Wipe Away, they just have very different pros and cons.

Honestly, if I wanted four bounce spells I'd definitely run it.

I also agree on Hurkyl's Final Meditation I want to like it, as it's a second Cyclonic Rift, but you are paying a fortune for that flexibility.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm most excited for Demolition Field, which is sad. I like the set overall, but due to Phelddy's unique structure, it's rare that we get much in a set. That said, if I still ran Strip Mine I would cut it for Demo Field. Sure, you can't hit basics, but hitting a basic just to give them another basic would be silly. The fact that it gets rid of a problematic land and replaced itself mana-wise is great. Who cares if they get a Swamp if you blew up their Cabal Coffers?

[DirkGently]

@TheGildedGoose the issue is mostly with enchanted lands. It'd certainly be nice to have an answer to earthcraft + squirrel nest within your lands, for example. Considering that yes, under normal circumstances blowing up a basic for a basic is pointless I wish they'd left us the option.

[Dunadain]

Ghost quarter is still the best option imo

[Hawk]

I generally agree. Cyclonic Rift + Time Stop is very good (theoretically this is 13 mana stapled) and I'm the biggest advocate of instant speed in the group I think, but Hurkyl's Final Meditation is just too much at 10 freaking mana even with the option to slam it at sorcery speed for 7. I feel like as much as I love instant speed, 10 mana is just too slow for all but the most glacial of metas and getting to also counter a spell with it isn't enough upshot.

I am a lot warmer on Defabricate. Stifle has been awesome but occasionally dead; I think I'm generally happy to pay 1 to also be able to nail a whole class of cards. Flexibility is a huge boon for Phelldy. Defabricate is worse at stopping an early combo artifact or a fetchland but that's not the kind of behavior we should be doing even in a cEDH environment - it's obviously not strictly better than stifle and if your meta is omega fast ignore it, but for me it feels like an upgrade. Not such an upgrade that I'm gonna drop everything to track it down though.

I'm not a fan of Soul Partition. It isn't removal, and as a delay effect I think it compares poorly to Unexpectedly Absent, Into the Roil/Blink of an Eye, and Echoing Truth. I guess again this is a bit better in faster cEDH environments where 2 mana might be a bigger deal then denying a draw or getting a "2 for 1", but faster metas are likely going to go even leaner than this or run hatey cards like Submerge right?

And Urza's Sylex is interesting, but I think if you wanted to nuke lands I'd prefer Cataclysm. This is the sort of salt-inducing play that seems very likely to backfire and is totally unnecessary for our purposes, plus 7 mana at sorcery speed (even with some payment plan options if we like to live dangerously) is a significant cost for a 'wipe.

[DirkGently]

I think if hurkyl's cost 7 for an instant without the end-the-turn clause, and 10 to add the end-the-turn clause, I'd at least consider it. Or if they made the base mode cost, like, 4 mana (with 6 extra for the instant speed I guess). It's really just that the 7 mana version being sorcery is so trash. I feel like they could have been kinder on the mv considering that the 7 mana version is functionally a sorcery, is symmetrical, and ends your turn. Cyc rift is instant-speed, asymmetrical, and doesn't have a downside. Sure, the 10 mv hurkyls is pretty nice, but (1) it's really not 10 mv nice and (2) cyc rift has the 2 mv mode, which is a lot more useful overall imo.

I mean, where is the 7 mv version even supposed to be remotely good? You've almost certainly spent your entire turn and tapped out to cast it, so your opponent just immediately reloads and you've accomplished practically nothing. It's not even possible to get first-mover benefits unless you have stuff with flash and a million mana. If I get it in my limited pool I'm not even considering playing it, even if I'm mono-blue.

Really annoys me when they play so incredibly safe with these sorts of things. I get that the effect could be oppressive but jfc. Hire some playtesters and find a happy medium between "format domination" and "toilet paper".

[AspiringHippo]

Intuition is the deck's last true power spike. No other card felt quite as gamechanging to the overall strategy as that one did. Just imagine if they'd free gifts! Oh what a world that would be.

How do you use intuition well?

[TheGildedGoose]

Intuition is the deck's last true power spike. No other card felt quite as gamechanging to the overall strategy as that one did. Just imagine if they'd free gifts! Oh what a world that would be.

How do you use intuition well?

Not Spirit, but I'd say so far my typical uses are:

a) Loam + cycling lands pile
b) political tutor to find the answer to a mutual problem for the table + Loam and a cycler
c) generic value tutor (3 wipes, for example)

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Intuition is the deck's last true power spike. No other card felt quite as gamechanging to the overall strategy as that one did. Just imagine if they'd free gifts! Oh what a world that would be.

How do you use intuition well?

Dirk has discussed Intuition's various applications throughout the thread, I'm happy to run down the top options:
1. Loam + cycling land + utility land. This is a classic no lose pile, as you can guarantee loam via dredge or the draw step and use it to recur whatever you need/make land drops for the remainder of the game.
2. 3 of a redundant control effect. This is an emergency option, but it gets the job done if something absolutely needs to be answered.
3. 3 innocuous or otherwise irrelevant cards, usually the cheapest ($$$ wise) cards the deck runs. This is a weird choice, but on one occasion, my telepathy got nabbed by an Archmage's Charm and revealed my Intuition. The table was unfamiliar with the deck and got spooked by the $200 dollar bill in my hand, suspecting a combo perhaps. I played into the fear a little bit, got very grave, flicked my cards very seriously, and then cast it on an opponent's end step. I searched my library and revealed 3 basics. We all then shared a good laugh when I get a Plains "because everyone knows Islands are broken". In doing this, I was able to play off the threat perception and earn some goodwill from the table, which is worth its weight in gold when the gameplan relies on appearing nonthreatening.

Beyond that, there's opportunities for mind games and other esoteric value plays, but I'm kind of bad at magic so I'd ask Dirk about that.

[Dunadain]

Moment's Peace is another one I enjoy grabbing