Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

Looks like they're going to complete the tricycle land cycle with the allied shards in New Capenna. Fetchable, cycling bant land here we come!
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Looks like they're going to complete the tricycle land cycle with the allied shards in New Capenna. Fetchable, cycling bant land here we come!
I noticed that. Easy inclusion for sure. Or as easy as any land is these days. If this decklist were any tighter it'd be losing buttons.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Dunadain » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Looks like they're going to complete the tricycle land cycle with the allied shards in New Capenna. Fetchable, cycling bant land here we come!
I noticed that. Easy inclusion for sure. Or as easy as any land is these days. If this decklist were any tighter it'd be losing buttons.
I know, my everytime they release a cool new tech land I groan internally, knowing I'm going to have to make another difficult decision. At least this should improve the manabase, rather than stretch it thinner.
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Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Looks like they're going to complete the tricycle land cycle with the allied shards in New Capenna. Fetchable, cycling bant land here we come!
I noticed that. Easy inclusion for sure. Or as easy as any land is these days. If this decklist were any tighter it'd be losing buttons.
Tbh I'm not feeling the same pressure. When the channel lands dropped, I seriously considered upping my land count to 48 to accommodate them. Detection tower/lighthouse are out currently for doing too little too often, and Arch of Orazca and ghost quarter (my strip mine equivalent) are really borderline ime. There's also a handful of redundancy in the various categories in my list that could be shaved off if something new and compelling arrives. I'd say only ~75 cards in my list feel irreplaceable, the other 24 or so are just the best of the rest, you know?

This is to say that the customizability of the deck is simply incredible. That's part of why it's steadily become my favorite deck to play. Heck, it's the only one of my former decks I've completely bought back into (minus the tundra, R.I.P.) since selling off my collection last year. I suppose it is your brainchild though, so it may just seem more solved when you think about it than when I do because of all the development and gametime you've already done. I only hope it never feels solved or too tight to me!
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Post by Dunadain » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Looks like they're going to complete the tricycle land cycle with the allied shards in New Capenna. Fetchable, cycling bant land here we come!
I noticed that. Easy inclusion for sure. Or as easy as any land is these days. If this decklist were any tighter it'd be losing buttons.
Tbh I'm not feeling the same pressure. When the channel lands dropped, I seriously considered upping my land count to 48 to accommodate them. Detection tower/lighthouse are out currently for doing too little too often, and Arch of Orazca and ghost quarter (my strip mine equivalent) are really borderline ime. There's also a handful of redundancy in the various categories in my list that could be shaved off if something new and compelling arrives. I'd say only ~75 cards in my list feel irreplaceable, the other 24 or so are just the best of the rest, you know?

This is to say that the customizability of the deck is simply incredible. That's part of why it's steadily become my favorite deck to play. Heck, it's the only one of my former decks I've completely bought back into (minus the tundra, R.I.P.) since selling off my collection last year. I suppose it is your brainchild though, so it may just seem more solved when you think about it than when I do because of all the development and gametime you've already done. I only hope it never feels solved or too tight to me!
Oh yeah, lot's of flexibility, choices are hard, not because the cards are uncuttable, but I grow attached to my cards, when I cut Alchemist's Refuge from my list, I was thinking of that one time I flashed in Play of the Game in order to break up an infinite combo, I know that isn't reliable enough to justify the card, but it was FUN! XD
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

@Dunadain You cut Refuge? Very interesting! That's one the cards I could never see cutting given the power of flash, but that's the crux of this right? We all have our own sacred cows at the end of the day
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

Okay, you win. Despite my best efforts, I haven't been able to create an equally interesting and fun to play control deck with another commander, so here I am, back again. I didn't update the list for a while so uh, decklist time? The list fundamentally didn't change but I've acquired several new goodies (notably fetches and a Drain) since I last posted.
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The only real apostasy I make in this list is that I run Seasons Past and ways to loop it. It may or may not affect my win percentage either way, but I love the card too much and it doesn't fit anywhere else in my current stable. Besides, having a way to say "The real Dark Souls starts here" when it resolves in the late game in either a 1v1 or a disadvantageous 2v1 is probably a good thing. It's not always the optimal line of play, given threat perception, but a back up plan in case things go south isn't a terrible idea, either.

No Exploration because I found it unnecessary, no Telepathy because I found it unfun. I also don't run Life from the Loam and cycle lands as a draw engine, preferring to rely on a mix of cantrips, one shot draw, and the drawing lands. Loam is very strong, obviously, but I don't have room for a critical density of cycling lands and I don't own the Intuition to jump start it. Maybe the new Channel Lands tip it over the top and make the white one worth running, I don't know.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

Decklist

General

Approximate Total Cost:

@TheGildedGoose
This is what I've been running and it feels pretty solid for my meta. I've tried to maximize the utility of my manabase while still maintaining a good balance of fetchland targets (hence the snow duals, my cross to bear until I pony up for duals or another cycle of land-type nonbasics can fill the void) What I really want from WotC are just two things: the simic bicycle land & one more graveyard hate land a la Scavenger Grounds. If I can just get those two little things, along with the new bant HQ, I can finally rid myself of the etbt desert albatross.

I admit I find your omission of loam baffling though. Loam is nuts with fetches, bonkers with channel lands, fabulous with cycling lands, and feeds delicious fuel into your Seasons Past (an inclusion of yours that I really like). I found it useful long before I acquired an intuition (twice...) for the deck and can't recommend it enough. Even with only fetches and the channel lands, it'll still be hugely useful in going the distance imho. It also just seems like a Goose kind of card, but hey, can we ever truly know one another?

Speaking of channel lands though, the white one has proved its worth for me at least. Sniping a Najeela into oblivion (3 times!) was a particular highlight. It obviously loses some value later on, but 4 damage is still relevant enough if recycled.
Last edited by TheAmericanSpirit 1 year ago, edited 19 times in total.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

@TheAmericanSpirit

Loam is absolutely a Goose card. My top 3 are Mishra's Factory, Seasons Past, and then Life from the Loam. My favorite constructed deck of all time is Loam Pox. The main reason I didn't include it is because I wasn't sure I could find room for the 3 Onslaught cyclers and the 3 cycling deserts. That would put the number of cycling lands I run at 7 (8 with Streets of New Capenna and the Bant triome, though let's be real, that card will almost never be cycled) which seems approximately correct, particularly since I can't Intuition for the package. I could feasibly cut the check lands or bond lands and some basics to fit everything in? There's just so many moving parts to consider.

After I posted the list I cut Sphinx's Revelation for Chemister's Insight (represents approximately the same number of cards per mana spent, but Insight is more digestible since you can break it up into two parts at the cost of flexibility; the life gain doesn't seem relevant) and an Island for Immovable Rod (because I forgot it exists and was running 43 mana producing lands; 42 is where I think I want to be), so there's still plenty of wiggle room.

I think I'll give Loam a try. I'll cut the checks first, as I think the bonds are marginally better.

- Sphinx's Revelation/Chemister's Insight
- checklands
- 2 Island
- 2 Plains

+ Life from the Loam
+ Desert of the True
+ Desert of the Mindful
+ Desert of the Indomitable
+ Secluded Steppe
+ Lonely Sandbar
+ Tranquil Thicket
+ Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire

I see y'all don't run the Onslaught cyclers, though. I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on whether they're worth running without Intuition. Too many ETBT lands I suspect, but this is a unique deck that can afford to be slow out of the gate, so I think it could be a good conversation.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

I think the onslaught cyclers are pretty good if you can stomach that much etbt. The aggressive cost to cycle is very palatable. I personally have my cycling quota filled with the 3 deserts and the two bicycle lands, so I haven't felt the need to include them, especially with the snow duals pushing my etbt land count up to uncomfortable levels.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

I've been thinking a lot about roles cards play and their respective ratios and critical densities and percentages lately when deckbuilding, and like a lot of other people I've run into problems with MDFCs and now, cycling lands with Loam. If we think of the actual boots on the ground function of the cycling lands in the deck, to what degree is it to produce mana, cycle, or in the niche case of the Deserts, act as graveyard removal in a pinch? Is it 1:1 land drop to cycling ratio? With Loam Pox it was a lot simpler because of a much easier to manage manabase and a more straightforward gameplan as well as a more established meta in which to consider things. Right now I'm operating at a 1:1, so 6 ETBT cycling lands are basically 3 lands and 3 cantrips. This means if I run the full 6, I'll need to run 3 more lands on top to compensate for it, putting my total land count at 46 (yikes). Functionally speaking, that's 43 lands (42 mana producers, I run Maze), which roughly corresponds to the 25 lands I'm used to for slow, blue-based control decks in 60 card formats.

I also forgot to include Rod in my last list of changes, so uh, I gotta free up some room.

+ Immovable Rod
+ Island
+ Plains

- Into the Roil
- Impulse

Right now I'm at 101. Not sure what role to cut. I'm inclined to cut another draw spell, but at this point it's either all the cantrips and replace them with bigger draw spells or a counter or a wipe.

I guess I could get an Intuition and save myself the hassle, but this is the agony of deckbuilding that I love so much. Just unban Gifts already, %$#%$#%.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

@TheGildedGoose Looking at your list, FoF seems like a pretty safe cut. I love the card too, but Dirk's right about revealing answers, it's bad for business. Trust in loam and the cyclers, and ditch the draw. Loam is basically a weird recall that pays in installments and recurs itself. It'll do the work, so long as you find it.

And yeah, unban gifts 1000%. The price of intuition is outrageous and it does the same dang thing as gifts. %$#%.

Edit: btw why aren't you playing wargate? It can find removal, a boardwipe, or any land you may need. I've found it super useful, if occasionally god awful slow.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

@TheAmericanSpirit

I experienced the stages of grief before accepting that cutting FoF is the right call. It's either that or Seasons Past, which suffers from a similar problem but has a much, much higher ceiling. As for Wargate, well... I don't know. I never really played with it in my versions before, but now that Out of Time exists it's a lot more appealing. I think I find Solve the Equation a little more useful overall, particularly in conjunction with Seasons Past. They cost the same, fulfill similar roles, but Solve is a little more flexible in the diversity of its targets. Maybe both?

I have a good feeling about the upcoming Brokers Charm. I love me some modal spells, and the rest of the cycle has been pretty pushed so far. Maybe they're saving the best for last.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

@TheGildedGoose

Huh, see I was just thinking about how bad the new charms are in comparison to their Alaran counterparts. Grixis is slightly better than Maestros, Naya charm has a way higher ceiling than cabretti and requires less setup, and esper charm sees modern and legacy play so obscura charm hasn't a hope. I'm just hoping the Broker charm is good enough and not too narrow.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

So, outside of very niche situations like Boros Charm to protect your board, modality lends itself towards control, as it's the most flexible strategy. This makes blue charms much, much better than their non-blue counterparts on average. And on blue charms in EDH, I want the following, in this order: board control, counter magic, card selection. Everything else is typically never selected. With that in mind, the two blue charms revealed so far follow that mold (Obscura Charm in particular looks absolutely absurd for 60 card constructed) which makes me cautiously optimistic Brokers Charm will approach Bant Charm levels of quality. Then again, if the ascendency is anything to consider, maybe we're screwed.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

We'll see. I hope it's worthy, but we are a fairly niche archetype. Like any token making modes or buff modes are dead weight, and one dead mode means the others have to be REALLY good.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
We'll see. I hope it's worthy, but we are a fairly niche archetype. Like any token making modes or buff modes are dead weight, and one dead mode means the others have to be REALLY good.
Cabaretti Charm makes tokens and buffs, so those two typical options are probably off the table. What's left? Spicy possibilities like enchantment removal, conditional creature removal, bounce, Remove Soul + planeswalkers, graveyard hate. I think it will almost certainly have some limited creature removal given that all three spoiled so far do as well, so as long as it isn't too restrictive and the other two modes are relevant I'll find room for it.

If Brokers Ascendancy is any kind of signpost for what we can expect for our color identity this set I'm less than excited for everything else, but dang, I love charms.

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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

Sadly Brokers Charm seems like a miss for us. Since the Ram Through effect is not that great for us, it's basically a split card that is instant-speed Divination // Demystify, which isn't good enough for 3 MV imo. Notably there aren't a ton of instant speed Divinations out there - but I think I'd pretty much always prefer Thirst for Discovery.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

I think it's…playable? Not great not awful. 5 damage to a creature OR PLANESWALKER isn't useless by any means, although obviously there's some setup. Hitting an enchantment is fine if mediocre. I almost think the divination is the weakest mode - proactive cards with cycling are easy to throw away when you don't need them, whereas throw this away and then next turn someone plays a scary enchantment.

So idk, I don't think I'd play it. 3cmc gets incredible flexibility like beast within, conditionally hitting 2 permanent types just doesn't feel like enough, and the cycling doesn't move the needle much for me.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

Brokers Charm is laaame. Bant Charm 4 lyfe.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

It's meh. Super Fight with an omnipresent general isn't nothing, but enchantment removal should've been the worst mode when it is in fact the draw 2. Card advantage in the charm slot is awkward because at least to me it fills an interaction role. If it could dig deep, like Supreme Will, to find an answer to something it itself couldn't answer, fine, but a blind draw 2 is a boring value play in a deck that is self-conscious about value plays. Pass.


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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Endless Detour

Somehow, we still got a great charm.
Yeah, I think I'll add one if I get one, although I don't know if I'd actively seek it out. I don't currently run Memory Lapse and would never consider running Time Ebb (although I do quite like Unexpectedly Absent). I'd never run Reclaim/Noxious Revival either. I think a card that can be all three is neat, but not a must-run by any means.

Any set that gives something is good though - still excited by An Offer You Can't Refuse! And I'm weirdly in to Out of the Way. My meta is slow enough that I always wait to kick Into the Roil, so I consider this close to strictly better since it can be 1U when it targets a creature of the most popular color in commander.

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TheGildedGoose
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Endless Detour

Somehow, we still got a great charm.
Yeah, I think I'll add one if I get one, although I don't know if I'd actively seek it out. I don't currently run Memory Lapse and would never consider running Time Ebb (although I do quite like Unexpectedly Absent). I'd never run Reclaim/Noxious Revival either. I think a card that can be all three is neat, but not a must-run by any means.
Wow, really? I think it's incredible. It effectively says "Solve target problem," which is basically what this deck does. I think it compares with Commit // Memory, a card I always found a little too awkwardly cost to run. Take off the unnecessary Timetwister portion and make it more color restrictive, but shave off a mana value and staple on mild graveyard hate, and I think we have an absolute winner.

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Endless Detour is a masterpiece of problem solving. Counterspell, removal, AND grave hate? Wowza, double wowza.

They must have heard the vociferous Brokers Charm disappointment from this thread all the way over in Seattle.
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