Noble Shadowheart: Fight the Moonlight

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

"O holy Night! from thee I learn to bear
What man has borne before!
Thou layest thy finger on the lips of Care
And they complain no more."

- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Hymn to the Night




Noble Shadowheart: Fight the Moonlight is a deck that encourages your opponents to kill each other so you don't have to. To achieve this, it employs its key card, Noble Heritage, to protect itself while growing your opponents' creatures larger so that they're better equipped to harm each other. When combined with various defensive cards that make attacking you unprofitable, Noble Heritage gives them a reward for doing anything but. Shadowheart, Dark Justiciar herself plays more of a support role, drawing cards as necessary, but mostly she's a vehicle for that sweet, sweet background.



Fight the Moonlight
Approximate Total Cost:




The key to this deck is to appear non-threatening and slowly grind your opponents down. You'll be a relevant contender in most games you play, and this ability to be relevant without threatening is the secret to this deck's power. Sure, a 9/6 Ebondeath, Dracolich that will draw me 9 cards in pretty threatening, but like a boa constrictor by the time you realize what's going on it's too late.

There's something I like to think of as the Three Tier Defense System for this deck.
1) Noble Heritage protection
2) Pillowfort protection
3) Fog protection

Layering these makes attacking us incredibly unattractive, making our opponents much more likely to attack each other and thus do your job for you. While this is a political deck, there's no need to be so overt about that fact. Drawing attention to yourself is how you die, so uh, don't do that.

I'm intentionally not playing tutors or highly expensive cards because I want this to be one of those decks I can play at both high and mid power tables and not be out of place. There's no hard, fast rule for budget of individual cards, but I'm trying to keep the overall price of the deck below $400. Is Deadly Rollick better than Path to Exile here? Probably, but Path is a buck and Rollick is forty. I don't think it's worth the budget allocation. That said, key cards like Teferi's Protection and solid, mid-priced value cards like Agadeem's Awakening are easy includes.



Lands

Not much to say. We're developing a board state in the early turns of the game so it's important that we run enough lands to hit our first five land drops pretty consistently with mulligans, and 42 is a sweet spot for that. Being in two colors gives us the luxury of playing some pretty solid tech lands so we're running the lands that already compliment the game plan from protection to recursion to disruption.

Ramp

While Orzhov doesn't have many amazing ramp options the catch-up ramp creatures in white do a lot of work. Space Marine Scout is a beating with just two rounds of Heritage triggers and Weathered Wayfarer, while not technically ramp, gives us the ability to constantly make sure we're keeping pace with the land leader at the table. I would run the sacrifice lands to power them up a bit but I find those lands to be somewhat risky. There's not a lot of land destruction in the format but being blown out by it is never a good time, so Scorched Ruins is right out.

Oh, and no Sol Ring. Be the change you wish to see in the world.

Card Advantage

Since we have a strong card draw engine in the command zone, recursion is favored here, but Bob and Breena, the Demagogue are just too strong here to pass up. Nullpriest of Oblivion doesn't look impressive here but two relevant keywords makes it punch far above its weight class here. Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor is a recent addition, but I expect him to do well. Card draw is generally useful and since we're probably more creature-heavy than most decks in the format we're poised to take advantage of that triggered ability. Further, he encourages violence against other players than me, so he plays two roles. Finally, if you really want to, you can use his activated ability to make someone scoop while it's on the stack. Seems solid to me.

Spot Removal

Orzhov has the best removal in the format, so we're playing the cream of the crop here. One mana creature removal, a plethora of artifact and enchantment removal, and when in doubt, kill-anything cards make sure you're able to take on most problematic permanents here. Hopeful Initiate is great here, and Skyclave Apparition puts in work, too. Due to the nature of the commanders you really want as many creatures as possible, but a balance must be struck between body, mana value, and speed.

Board Wipes

Again, Orzhov is top tier for removal. Seven seems really high for a deck that depends on the red zone to win, but look closer. Three are to one degree or another asymmetrical, and the other four are either extremely efficient or thorough. This deck can struggle to get through board states occasionally so being able to break stalemates can be useful, and to be frank, sometimes you just need to blow stuff up because someone ran away with the game.

Other Disruption

Kind of a catch-all section for cards that don't directly blow stuff up on the field but do disrupt your opponents in some way. Most of it is graveyard hate, but Dreamstealer is just too good too fun to not run, even if this deck wants to stay under the radar. Super Hypnotic Specter is a card I will always try to play.

Protection

We depend on a lot of permanents to be successful, so protecting our investments is paramount. As noted above, Heritage doesn't work without Shadowheart, so protecting her is our first priority. Loran's Escape and Mother of Runes help out quite a bit. Mom acts as a rattlesnake for removal which is great, and Escape is one of those cards virtually no one will expect. It's not a one mana counterspell, but it performs a similar role in an aggressive deck. The mass protection spells like Teferi's Protection protect us from board wipes (theirs and ours) allowing us to emerge with a vastly superior board position in the wake of one. These cards win games, make no mistake.

Pillowfort

The other key component in keeping our opponents off of us. Some of them, like Windborn Muse and High Priest of Penance are proactive, causing opponents to second guess attacking in the first place, while cards like Inkshield or Comeuppance are more reactive and lead to massive blowouts. These are part of the Three Tier Defense System I mentioned above. My favorite here is Orzhov Advokist since it functions very similarly to Heritage, taking the pressure off of us to keep both of our commanders in play.

Beats

Yes, we got the beat(s). I know, you saw Aerial Responder and thought about why I'm running a draft card. Hear me out. Vigilance is a keyword that does a lot of heavy lifting in this deck since we can swing with impunity. Flying is probably the best evasion. Lifelink gives us some more sustain. All of these individually aren't amazing, but throw them together on a 3mv creature that just so happens to curve between our commanders and you've got a serious beatstick. Ebondeath, Dracolich and God-Eternal Oketra are recursive and give us a strong sense of inevitability, while Shadrix Silverquill fills multiple roles, but double strike makes him a rather effective finisher. Sun Titan needs no introduction.

A lot of theory and experimentation went into this deck to get it into the state it's in now, as you can see from this thread, and I'm quite proud of it. Let me know what you think.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Well, I'm back from work and I thought about four things the entire shift:

1) My deck is 98 cards, not 99. Oops!
.
2) The right call is to make the switch from the big beefs to the little lentils. I can do better with my replacements, though; cards like Despoiler of Souls, Scrapheap Scrounger, and even Tenacious Underdog that only recur themselves are probably better in theory than in execution. I would much rather lose a few power across a few creatures and play creatures with more relevant effects. While those recurring creatures do synergize well with Shadowheart, the reality is that her ability is likely explosive enough that just a few choice activations is enough to give me the game. Much more than that would be winmore. Instead, it's probably better to run a few more politickers and hatebear-type creatures. Not full on stax stuff, just more inconveniences, like Thalia and Thalia and Thalia. This realization led me to...

3) The best way to use Shadowheart's activation is probably judiciously. If you're piling on counters every turn and drawing 4-5 cards, you're probably going to be a threat very quickly. This reminded me very much of the lessons I've learned from playing Erebos over the years. The best method is likely to only get out one or two creatures and keep plopping those counters on until the inevitable removal spell or board wipe, then activate Shadowheart in response to just draw a boat load of cards. If you've been delaying things and causing infighting with politics, you've also likely been developing your board and sculpting your hand, which means when you do draw 5+ cards from your creature, you're in fantastic shape. If our plan is contingent on keeping Shadowheart in play, well, then this means...

4) Shadowheart must be protected at all costs.

She is precious. Stuff like Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots seem especially great due to also granting haste, but other cards that grant hexproof/shroud also seem playable as well. Even Favorable Destiny! Well, maybe not, but Shelter could be okay. In addition to Teferi's Protection, why not Flawless Maneuver? Not only will this keep her around for a few turns longer than she might normally survive, but it will also eventually discourage your opponents from using removal on her provided you play with a group that becomes familiar with the deck.

With all of that in mind, here are some ➖s:

- Hunted Horror
- Grim Wanderer
- Rotting Regisaur
- Viconia, Drow Apostate
- Blade of the Oni
- Skyclave Shade
- Scrapheap Scrounger
- Intrepid Adversary
- Call of the Death-Dweller

And the ➕s:

+ Windborn Muse
+ Thalia, Heretic Cathar
+ Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+ Vryn Wingmare
+ Lightning Greaves
+ Swiftfoot Boots
+ Shelter
+ Flawless Maneuver
+ Heliod, God of the Sun

I'll also swap around some basics, since this changes my requirements a little bit.

EDIT: Actually, I need a few more 2 drops to get my proportions where I need them:

+ Bounty Agent
+ Grand Abolisher
+ Imposing Sovereign
+ Nullpriest of Oblivion

- Windborn Muse
- Vryn Wingmare
- Duelist's Heritage
- Deadly Dispute

EDIT: Wait, we're at 99 cards(?) somehow. You know what kind of deck we are? We're a Bob deck.

+ The Great One

EDIT: Okay, last one for the night. 16 is the sweet spot for 2 drops. That's where I'm at, so now I'm looking at 3 drops.

Here's a brief list of creatures I'm considering:

Drumbellower
Hypnotic Specter (hell yeah)
Lae'zel, Vlaakith's Champion
Murderous Rider
Opposition Agent
Sanguine Spy
Weathered Sentinels (lol)

Also, while I'm here, I want to ask if anyone can think of solid mana sinks on creatures. I have Heliod, God of the Sun in here now, but a lower mana cost and an actual creature would be nice. The only decent one I can think of off the top of my head is maybe Nezumi Graverobber.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

I'm going to keep making new posts in this thread instead of just constantly editing the OP and there's nothing the mods can do to stop me.

So I'm lying in bed after that last post thinking about it and realized I forgot mom and sis. They're both obviously fantastic cards, providing a strong disincentive to casting removal on Shadowheart, Dark Justiciar as well as making creatures somewhat unblockable in a pinch. Slam dunk easy inclusions.

I was also thinking about mana sink creatures. In addition to Nezumi Graverobber, a comprehensive Scryfall search of 1-3mv creatures with an activated ability also yielded Hopeful Initiate, Pack Rat, Resplendent Angel, Shinewend, Twilight Drover, and Varragoth, Bloodsky Sire. As it turns out, WotC wisely prints very few aggressively costed creatures with incredible activated abilities. Honestly, those are the only ones I saw that were worthwhile, and of those I really only think the Graverobber is actually playable. Kind of disappointing, but meh. I can find other things to do with my mana. Vault of the Archangel comes to mind.

Since I don't run many specific creatures I want to recur, Reanimate is just a mediocre value card, and Night's Whisper/Sign in Blood are probably unnecessary. Baleful Mastery is bad when Murderous Rider performs a similar role and has a body. Shadrix Silverquill is just too high on the curve, and Immortal Servitude is just a bit too narrow. I don't want to go wide, anyway, so getting back 3-4 2 drops isn't a big deal.

- Reanimate
- Baleful Mastery
- Night's Whisper
- Sign in Blood
- Shadrix Silverquill
- Immortal Servitude
- a basic land

+ Mother of Runes
+ Giver of Runes
+ Nezumi Graverobber
+ Murderous Rider
+ Opposition Agent
+ Drum Bellower
+ Vault of the Archangel

EDIT: Okay, more edits. Shelter probably is redundant now with mom and sis. I would rather have preventative measures on board rather than be reactive with this deck, since a) I might not have the mana in time to save Shadowheart b) removal pointed elsewhere is removal I myself don't have to cast. Easy cut. I want to add in some more 2mv creatures to push my expected percentage of my ideal opening play with mulligans to 90%. According to the calculator, that's at 22 (that means adding 3), so here we go:

- Shelter
- Protector of the Crown (too expensive)
- Opposition Agent (too annoying for politics)

+ Phyrexian Revoker
+ Selfless Savior
+ Tidehollow Sculler

Also, are we a Living Death deck? Initially, with so many creatures, I thought so, but a) they're tiny and b) there aren't a ton of ETBs. I think we're not, surprisingly, but I'm not sure what to replace it with.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Here I go again on my own.

Just some notes on where my head has been:

Living Death isn't worth it. Instead, I'm deeply worried about how commander-centric the deck is, so I'm trying out some spicy Ikoria tech: Fight as One. If I'm abiding by the Rule of Two and have only Shadowheart and another creature out, it's a one mana Unbreakable Formation 2/3s of the time since I run so many non-humans. I also think Blacksmith's Skill is a nice, cheap catch-all protection card for Shadowheart herself.

- Living Death
+ Fight as One
+ Blacksmith's Skill

3 drops are basically irrelevant. The density of 2 drops for consistency's sake means that a 3 drop has to really stand on its own as a powerhouse, not because I can curve into it. I want to put Shadrix Silverquill back in as the double strike is very nice with the counters from Heritage and the trigger can be doled out politically as necessary. It was a mistake to cut it so soon.

- Drumbellower
- Thalia, Heretic Cathar
+ Shadrix Silverquill

This last one is a doozy. I found a reasonably aggressively costed creature with decent stats and one of the strongest activated abilities in the game. Care to guess which one? I'll give you a hint: let's get Yawgie with it. Okay, maybe I oversold that one, but it's a) a body b) a mana sink, And that can't be all bad.

- Vindictive Lich
+ Magus of the Will

Note to self: Call the section on play philosophy in the future primer Shadowheart, Party of Two.

Oh yeah.

- Vault of the Archangel
+ Kor Haven

EDIT: Well, I woke up early and decided to peruse the ol' 2mv Orzhov list of creatures with power 2 or greater. Here's a list of ones that are at least quasi-playable:

Order of Midnight (Gravedigger over multiple turns or an evasive beater on t2)
Priest of Fell Rites (5 mana to return another 2mv creature sucks though getting Shadrix or something else big is a possibility)
Relic Seeker (give me the clamp)
Selfless Samurai (probably better than Selfless Savior)
Tithe Taker (I mentioned it earlier and forgot about it; it seems okay)
Tourach, Dread Cantor (impossible to politic with but sometimes you have to lay down the law)
War Priest of Thune (boring but effective)
Eternal Taskmaster (like a bad Bob, but you're guaranteed to get a threat each turn)
Knight of the White Orchid (like Loyal Warhound I guess but can get Godless Shrine and it enter untapped)
Containment Priest (viable now that I run so few reanimation cards, but I already run so much graveyard hate)
Deep Gnome Terramancer (forgot this lil' guy existed)

Of these, I genuinely like Selfless Samurai and Deep Gnome Terramancer. Cutting the dog for the fox is a no-brainer, but finding room for the svirfneblin is harder. Maybe Athreos, God of Passage? If I was going wider, Athreos would be amazing, but if I'm only keeping Shadowheart and one or two other creatures out at a time I don't think that I'll ever get a significant amount of life loss or recursion out of him.

- Selfless Savior
- Athreos, God of Passage

+ Selfless Samurai
+ Deep Gnome Terramancer

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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

Love the name although for some reason "The Noble Shadwheart" reads in my head in David Attenborough's voice. Looks like you've already done a lot of work to rock the casbah, but one card stood out to me as a possible mana-sink: Bloodtracker. I didmissed this as mostly terrible, but it seems awesome in this deck - it's a mana sink that appreciates counters from Noble Heritage and appreciates the presence of a sac outlet in the command zone so you can cash in for cards at your own tempo.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Well, it's been about 24 hours. Time for shouting into the void!

As per some suggestions in the initial brew thread, it might be beneficial to invest into pillowfort and other anti-aggressive behavior cards. The idea is that combined with Noble Heritage, the two-step incentivization will make me even less of an attractive target to attack into, even if I'm ostensibly somewhat ahead. Obviously. due to the way the deck works, I would prefer a) creatures and also b) that they cost 2mv. I was only able to find one: Flumph. Flumph is actually a pretty great add here and, I think, so too will Wall of Omens. They hit that sweet, sweet 2mv spot, and the defender aspect is inherently non-threatening. Obviously, they both block aggressors well, which will only scale with Heritage pumping them up, and while Omens just cantrips, Flumph actively discourages attackers. I think they're gonna be great.

There are, of course, the more traditional pillowfort elements, but I'm less excited by some of these:

Windborn Muse
Nils, Discipline Enforcer
Mangara, the Diplomat
Ghostly Prison
Sphere of Safety
Baird, Steward of Argive
Archon of Absolution
Norn's Annex

Muse I had in originally obviously, and I think she could come back in, being a solid blocker that also helps against big boards. Mangara is interesting in that he also draws cards, but I don't think that's worthwhile when my commander draws cards. Prison, of course, is iconic, but the others are probably not worth considering at all.

So, let's theory out the following:

+ Flumph
+ Wall of Omens
+ Windborn Muse

What to cut?

For the two 2mv creatures, 23 is the place to be I think so I want to cut some of my existing 2mv slots. Slaughter Specialist is a hangover from the low cost/high power days that was only kept to give opponents tokens to attack each other with, but otherwise is just a dumb card, so she can go. This next one was harder; it was between Tidehollow Sculler and Phyrexian Revoker, but I decided that Revoker is basically pointless on T3 whereas the Sculler can nab counterspell or removal spell, or at least reveal information. Finding room for the Muse is more difficult still. The only cut I can in good conscience make is Magus of the Will, It probably isn't very good here, to be honest. I would've tried to force it for a while, but I think it killing itself is a problem when this deck wants to sacrifice its creatures to Shadowheart. And realistically, drawing a boat load of cards probably isn't that much worse than recurring 3-4 cards with Magus.

- Slaughter Specialist
- Phyrexian Revoker
- Magus of the Will

I also have some "fogs" like Inkshield and Comeuppance on the list to look at. I don't think they're amazing, but if my opponents expect me to have them then they can be of use.
Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Love the name although for some reason "The Noble Shadwheart" reads in my head in David Attenborough's voice. Looks like you've already done a lot of work to rock the casbah, but one card stood out to me as a possible mana-sink: Bloodtracker. I didmissed this as mostly terrible, but it seems awesome in this deck - it's a mana sink that appreciates counters from Noble Heritage and appreciates the presence of a sac outlet in the command zone so you can cash in for cards at your own tempo.
Actually, this is a good call. While the deck can, theoretically, draw a bunch of cards with Shadowheart, drawing 2x - 2 cards, where x is Bloodtracker's power seems real good, too. What to cut, though?

And thanks, I'm actually legitimately proud of this deck and its name. Can you guess what "sharif" means in Arabic? If not, go Google it. I'll wait.

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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Love the name although for some reason "The Noble Shadwheart" reads in my head in David Attenborough's voice. Looks like you've already done a lot of work to rock the casbah, but one card stood out to me as a possible mana-sink: Bloodtracker. I didmissed this as mostly terrible, but it seems awesome in this deck - it's a mana sink that appreciates counters from Noble Heritage and appreciates the presence of a sac outlet in the command zone so you can cash in for cards at your own tempo.
Actually, this is a good call. While the deck can, theoretically, draw a bunch of cards with Shadowheart, drawing 2x - 2 cards, where x is Bloodtracker's power seems real good, too. What to cut, though?

And thanks, I'm actually legitimately proud of this deck and its name. Can you guess what "sharif" means in Arabic? If not, go Google it. I'll wait.
Maybe Windborn Muse? I love the old girl, but I've found her increasingly low impact and overly fragile. That maintains curve, too - drop a 4-drop flier for a 4-drop flier.

And...wow, that's hilarious. It's like it was meant to be!

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Maybe Windborn Muse? I love the old girl, but I've found her increasingly low impact and overly fragile. That maintains curve, too - drop a 4-drop flier for a 4-drop flier.

And...wow, that's hilarious. It's like it was meant to be!
Well, obviously I haven't played the deck yet and it is 100% theorycraft at the moment, but the idea is to layer the pillowfort effects so as to effectively "force" them to add the counters to their creatures and render me invulnerable. Muse isn't incredible on her own, but I think with an active Heritage out that she would do a lot of lifting.

That said, I could also see cutting her. The curve argument doesn't really hold away over me since the first four turns are calculated to be as consistent as is reasonably possible, so I'm really open to any reasonable cuts.

How about cutting Skullclamp for Bloodtracker? I know, I can't believe I'm suggesting it, either, but hear me out. Considering I don't run a bunch of tokens and Heritage will greatly buff up my creatures, Clamp will likely just be a nice, bonus 2 cards everytime I sac with Shadowheart. Which is, of course, amazing. While Bloodtracker won't draw as many cards as consistently as Clamp, it will draw some cards in addition to being an easy-to-grow evasive threat.

And ain't it, though? I haven't been this inspired by a deck concept in some time, though that could be the mania talking. Who's to say?

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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Maybe Windborn Muse? I love the old girl, but I've found her increasingly low impact and overly fragile. That maintains curve, too - drop a 4-drop flier for a 4-drop flier.

And...wow, that's hilarious. It's like it was meant to be!
Well, obviously I haven't played the deck yet and it is 100% theorycraft at the moment, but the idea is to layer the pillowfort effects so as to effectively "force" them to add the counters to their creatures and render me invulnerable. Muse isn't incredible on her own, but I think with an active Heritage out that she would do a lot of lifting.

That said, I could also see cutting her. The curve argument doesn't really hold away over me since the first four turns are calculated to be as consistent as is reasonably possible, so I'm really open to any reasonable cuts.

How about cutting Skullclamp for Bloodtracker? I know, I can't believe I'm suggesting it, either, but hear me out. Considering I don't run a bunch of tokens and Heritage will greatly buff up my creatures, Clamp will likely just be a nice, bonus 2 cards everytime I sac with Shadowheart. Which is, of course, amazing. While Bloodtracker won't draw as many cards as consistently as Clamp, it will draw some cards in addition to being an easy-to-grow evasive threat.

And ain't it, though? I haven't been this inspired by a deck concept in some time, though that could be the mania talking. Who's to say?
Shockingly, I think that's correct. By my count you only have 10 clampable dudes in the '99 by base, and more than half aren't creatures you want to casually clamp away (Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant). Sharif Shadowheart is going to want to wait to sac and 'clamp requires you to commit to your target at sorcery speed for a bonus +2 cards. If you were still running the Bloodghast/Bloodsoaked Champion/Reassembling Skeleton engine Clamp would be uncuttable, but with them all gone I think Clamp could be gone too.

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Post by Ulka » 1 year ago

I really am liking how this deck seems to play. I think I would want to try out Ad Nauseam in the list given how low the average MV is. I think this list could actually be adapted to cEDH given a bit of tools like more hatebears and a bit more interaction but I think this list is very inspiring and honestly I might look at how I could adapt a copy of this list for me.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Shockingly, I think that's correct. By my count you only have 10 clampable dudes in the '99 by base, and more than half aren't creatures you want to casually clamp away (Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant). Sharif Shadowheart is going to want to wait to sac and 'clamp requires you to commit to your target at sorcery speed for a bonus +2 cards. If you were still running the Bloodghast/Bloodsoaked Champion/Reassembling Skeleton engine Clamp would be uncuttable, but with them all gone I think Clamp could be gone too.
98* :catjam:

Yeah, I think it's time for Clamp to go. I don't see it doing much that the deck doesn't already have the ability to do.

What the deck doesn't have are meaningful win conditions. Right now, the gameplan is to politick and wear opponents down through combat before progressing the game to a 1v1 state where I just sort of overwhelm then. That's a little nebulous for my tastes, so I'm looking for something more concrete. Ebondeath, Dracolich and Shadrix Silverquill are reasonable top end cards; one self-recurs easily and the other plays into politics and scales incredibly well with +1/+1 counters due to double strike. Akroma's Will is a nice Swiss Army Knife of a card, but since I don't go super wide I don't think it will allow me to steal games or bring them to a conclusion with any regularity.

But what can I add that isn't a huge threat? Like, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite comes to mind, but she's a massive removal magnet. Sun Titan is more our speed, but a single 6/6 does not a viable path to victory make. What about a spicy equipment subtheme, to attach to all those little lentils I run? That would make Stoneforge Mystic and Relic Seeker viable bears to run.

EDIT: Forgot to include the changes, for posterity's sake:

-1 Skullclamp
+1 Bloodtracker
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Ulka wrote:
1 year ago
I really am liking how this deck seems to play. I think I would want to try out Ad Nauseam in the list given how low the average MV is. I think this list could actually be adapted to cEDH given a bit of tools like more hatebears and a bit more interaction but I think this list is very inspiring and honestly I might look at how I could adapt a copy of this list for me.
Aw, shucks.

I desperately want to agree on Ad Nauseam. The deck sits at a average mana value of 1.48 currently including lands, so it seems like a natural inclusion. It's just... well, in theory, if the deck is doing its thing and staying under the radar, I can always smoke one of my own creatures to draw 6+ cards as needed. Of course, this is all in theory. If this plan falls apart and I'm floundering, with effectively 4 copies of Nauseam due to tutors it could be an excellent one-of to catapult me back into the game, and worst case scenario it just gets discarded when I draw 10 cards and don't need it. I'm on the fence about it. If anything, it would take the place of the recently added Bloodtracker, right?

As for it being cEDH, well, that I don't know about. I'm inclined to believe that Noble Heritage is fundamentally at odds with cEDH design philosophy. How many decks in cEDH actually win through fair combat? Tymna decks will attack, for sure, but if they win through the combat step at all isn't it by doing something broken that renders the +1/+1 counters irrelevant?

Thanks for the kind words, though. I was beginning to feel like a lunatic, screaming bad jokes into the void about math and theory.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

I'm sorry, Goose. I cashed in all the chips I had on that last summoning. I ain't the kind of wizard with enough clout to pull that off twice. But anyway, I really like ol' Rotty Reg and I think cutting it is a mistake. Sure, he's just a big dumb beater, but a 7/6 that starts swinging on t4 is gonna put out a lotta damage or die trying. Late game, he refills your hand for a measly 5 total.

Besides, Ad Nauseam may be powerful, but Reg is cool. I know which characteristic I respect more.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
I'm sorry, Goose. I cashed in all the chips I had on that last summoning. I ain't the kind of wizard with enough clout to pull that off twice. But anyway, I really like ol' Rotty Reg and I think cutting it is a mistake. Sure, he's just a big dumb beater, but a 7/6 that starts swinging on t4 is gonna put out a lotta damage or die trying. Late game, he refills your hand for a measly 5 total.

Besides, Ad Nauseam may be powerful, but Reg is cool. I know which characteristic I respect more.
Reggie is great, no doubt about it, but I just think he's too threatening, you know? On T4, 60-90% of the time, I'll have plopped down Shadowheart and be going to town with whatever 2 drop I had on hand, so Reggie occupies an awkward space between being slightly too expensive mana wise while being too threatening (but not threatening enough to actually consistently kill someone with). If I played a more graveyard-centric deck where the discard could be an advantage, then yeah, definitely, but as is ol' Reggie is just a little too awkward, in my opinion. He's way cooler than Karl, for sure, but unfortunately, I do not abide by the Rule of Cool when I DM. The dice fall where the dice fall, and the monsters know what they're doing.
Last edited by TheGildedGoose 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
I'm sorry, Goose. I cashed in all the chips I had on that last summoning. I ain't the kind of wizard with enough clout to pull that off twice. But anyway, I really like ol' Rotty Reg and I think cutting it is a mistake. Sure, he's just a big dumb beater, but a 7/6 that starts swinging on t4 is gonna put out a lotta damage or die trying. Late game, he refills your hand for a measly 5 total.

Besides, Ad Nauseam may be powerful, but Reg is cool. I know which characteristic I respect more.
Reggie is great, no doubt about it, but I just think he's too threatening, you know? On T4, 60-90% of the time, I'll have plopped down Shadowheart and be going to town with whatever 2 drop I had on hand, so Reggie occupies an awkward space between being slightly too expensive mana wise while being too threatening (but not threatening enough to actually consistently kill someone with). If I played a more graveyard-centric deck where the discard could be an advantage, then yeah, definitely, but as is ol' Reggie is just a little too awkward, in my opinion. He's way cooler than Karl, for sure, but unfortunately, I do not abide by the Rule of Cool when I DM. The dice fall where the dice fall, and the monsters know what they're doing.
That's a shame, because I am very much a Rule of Cool kind of party member. Thank god for competent monsters though, jesus.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
I'm sorry, Goose. I cashed in all the chips I had on that last summoning. I ain't the kind of wizard with enough clout to pull that off twice. But anyway, I really like ol' Rotty Reg and I think cutting it is a mistake. Sure, he's just a big dumb beater, but a 7/6 that starts swinging on t4 is gonna put out a lotta damage or die trying. Late game, he refills your hand for a measly 5 total.

Besides, Ad Nauseam may be powerful, but Reg is cool. I know which characteristic I respect more.
Reggie is great, no doubt about it, but I just think he's too threatening, you know? On T4, 60-90% of the time, I'll have plopped down Shadowheart and be going to town with whatever 2 drop I had on hand, so Reggie occupies an awkward space between being slightly too expensive mana wise while being too threatening (but not threatening enough to actually consistently kill someone with). If I played a more graveyard-centric deck where the discard could be an advantage, then yeah, definitely, but as is ol' Reggie is just a little too awkward, in my opinion. He's way cooler than Karl, for sure, but unfortunately, I do not abide by the Rule of Cool when I DM. The dice fall where the dice fall, and the monsters know what they're doing.
That's a shame, because I am very much a Rule of Cool kind of party member. Thank god for competent monsters though, jesus.
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Here's some equipment I'm considering and my general feeling about them:

Grafted Wargear (criminally underrated)
Sword of the Realms (seems okay? Halvar is also randomly a body I guess)
Deathrender (a little high mv wise, but it eventually pays for itself in free creatures theoretically)
Sword of Truth and Justice (the best of the Sword of X and Y series for this deck, in my opinion)
Sword of Fire and Ice (I personally think it's a little overrated, but eh)
Sword of Hearth and Home (Sword of the Animist on steroids; you don't have to blink your creature, but if I randomly have an ETB effect it becomes that much better)
Sword of Feast and Famine (good card is good, but I can't really take advantage of the mana boost without overcommitting generally)

I think I could add in, say, three of these as well as at least Stoneforge Mystic and maybe Relic Seeker. To make room for the creatures, I could cut the weakest 2 drops I have, those being Tidehollow Sculler (too much variance, and it's bad for politics) and either Deep Gnome Terramancer (I don't have much use for the mana past turn 5) or Wall of Omens (I might be overstocked on pillowfort cards).

Making room for three equipment? Well, that's a much more difficult conversation. On the cusp are Phyrexian Reclamation, Akroma's Will, Heliod, God of the Sun, and Council's Judgment, but none of those are easy cuts.

And one last, little change:

-1 Tainted Field
+1 Shambling Vent

I run fewer Swamps than I did earlier and a good manland seems relevant. Hell, I might be running the wrong one, but we'll see.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Okay, last double post for awhile, because I think the deck is officially out of draft mode! I've conceptualized and thought about a lot of elements, and I believe they've come together into a cohesive whole that I'm quite proud of.

So, equipment: I completely blanked on Empyrial Plate. I feel like this deck will usually be sitting at 4+ cards in hand most of the time, so this is a major stat boost that also, of course, helps to draw more cards, which then improves the stat bumps. Very nice. Also, Blade of the Oni is back! It's an evasive two drop that also buffs my lentils and survives board wipes. In addition, I'm adding in Sword of Truth and Justice. Grafted Wargear was on the cusp, but just lost out to the Blade.

Also, I'm definitely going to give the tutorbears a shot, so that's five slots we need to find room for.

+ Empyrial Plate
+ Blade of the Oni
+ Sword of Truth and Justice
+ Stoneforge Mystic
+ Relic Seeker

I'm gonna cut the three cards I mentioned in the previous post (EDIT: I lied, Wall of Omens is a boss, let's ditch Graf Reaver instead)

- Tidehollow Sculler
- Deep Gnome Terramancer
- Graf Reaver

Akroma's Will would be much better in a go-wide deck, Here, it's an overpriced protection spell that might also occasionally deal some extra damage or make your few creatures unblockable. It's a good card, just not here.

- Akroma's Will

This one hurts, but I think the next right choice is Heliod, God of the Sun. It's a mana sink, sure, and the mass vigilance is good for protection, but this deck is going to have 3 creatures out max at any given time and that just doesn't strike me as worth it. Compared with Phyrexian Reclamation and the fact that I run so many 2mv creatures, both effectively say "Pay 4 mana: Put a creature into play," only the creature I get back from Reclamation will likely be a much, much better creature than a vanilla 2/1.

- Heliod, God of the Sun

I've also been eyeballing Custodi Lich. Back when the deck relied more on Monarch to encourage violence it was a little bit better, but now that there are more nuanced and layered political/pillowfort elements I think it's a little lackluster. But what to replace it with? Oh, right: Ad Nauseam, because confound the constabulary, that's why.

- Custodi Lich
+ Ad Nauseam

Thanks for reading all of this rambling nonsense.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Well, I expect large portions of the deck to come in the mail tomorrow, so I may as well do some more theorizing about what will or won't work.

Namely, I think I want a double striking 2mv creature. I've narrowed it down to Adorned Pouncer and Twinblade Geist, leaning towards the Geist. Eternalized Pouncer is a decent threat; a 4/4 double striker that gets steadily bigger due to Heritage is no joke. However, I like the lower cost of Disturb on the Geist, even if it requires a creature in play to be activated. Being able to attack with my beefy double striker on the same turn I give it double strike also seems pretty solid. Relic Seeker needing to connect doesn't thrill me.

Volrath's Stronghold is the only RL card in the deck, and while it's incredibly powerful, it's not entirely essential for the deck, and as a result I'm thinking of dropping it for another utility land. I mean, luckily I own one and like using it, but when every other card in the deck (save Kor Haven, which I'll get to in a moment) is using the new border it kind of stands out and since this is a more casual-oriented deck, I think it would be safe to cut. I was going to add in Strip Mine to deal with random problem lands, but Ghost Quarter is more political, is basically failsafe, and also has a modern border. As for Kor Haven, well, it's fine, but Labyrinth of Skophos performs a similar role and has a modern border. This is more of an aesthetic change than a mechanical one, but I hope you understand.

Council's Judgment should be Vindicate. No need to play politics when you need to blow something up, and the niche case of getting two permanents with Judgment just never happens. Exile is nice, but hitting lands is also nice, so I consider that a wash.

- Relic Seeker
- Volrath's Stronghold
- Kor Haven
- Council's Judgment

+ Twinblade Geist
+ Ghost Quarter
+ Labyrinth of Skophos
+ Vindicate

If all goes according to plan I should be able to get to my FLGS on Thursday and get some games in.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Okay, one last hurrah, since I kind of realized that the whole rock angle isn't necessary. Really, if I'm playing Shadowheart on turn 4 anyway, and my curve is so low to the point where I'm not really ramping into anything, it begs the question: why dedicate so many slots to ramp? That's 10 slots that could go elsewhere. What would a list without a dedicated ramp package look like? It certainly runs more 3 drops since they bridge the gap between Noble Heritage and Shadowheart, Dark Justiciar and are theoretically more impactful than a 2 drop. More lands, for sure, and a few more equipment to turn my little lentils into credible threats. God-Eternal Oketra also makes an appearance as a threat that scales incredibly well with +1/+1 counters that is also a recurring army in a can.

Why not just take a look at the second list?



Rock the Sword Coast 2: Now With 91% Less Rock
Approximate Total Cost:

I think I like this list a little more overall since it's a little more focused without unnecessary ramp cards, but I'm not sure. I guess only time and playtesting will tell.

EDIT: I think God-Eternal Oketra is a slam dunk card here, as is Lurrus of the Dream-Den even without fetches. I'm going to find room for them in the rock build by cutting Ad Nauseam (great card is great, but this deck doesn't need bursty card draw on this scale) and Nezumi Graverobber (while a 2mv creature, Lurrus is a much better reanimator for this deck). Also, Selfless Samurai may be marginally more useful in combat than a good boy but the mana value difference is important.

- Ad Nauseam
- Nezumi Graverobber
- Selfless Samurai

+ God-Eternal Oketra
+ Lurrus of the Dream-Den
+ Selfless Savior

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Well, I expect large portions of the deck to come in the mail tomorrow
This expectation was wrong. I still have nothing, so since I can't playtest, I've been goldfishing to see how things will play out in the first handful of games. The only thing I've gleaned is that it is in fact remarkably consistent, which is nice to know, I guess.

I decided to cut Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. She's a fine hatebear, but is also really annoying to play against, and being annoying is the opposite of playing politically, so she's out for a killer rattlesnake: High Priest of Penance. I really like the way Priest will play in theory; he's a great rattlesnake of course but on the offensive he's basically unblockable. With a few turns of piling on counters, he becomes a serious threat or a way for my opponents to suicide their mana dorks into in order to destroy a problematic permanent. Also, Bloodtracker is out for Recruiter of the Guard. They perform a similar role, but given that Shadowheart is a massive draw engine, I think the tutor aspect of Guard is much stronger.

The manabase is also getting a mild adjustment, basically adding Reliquary Tower and a Vault of the Archangel over Ghost Quarter and Labyrinth of Skophos. GQ is fine and all, but with two spells that can destroy lands it feels like an unnecessary non-basic, and Labyrinth kind of sucks a lot. I wish I could use my Kor Haven but unfortunately it has yet to receive a modern reprint. Tower is usually a boring win-more card, but the cards this deck can draw combined with Empyrial Plate make Tower a potentially lethal inclusion. Vault is a cute anti-aggro card that functions similarly to Labyrinth but also has a more offensive mode, as well.

- Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
- Bloodtracker
- Ghost Quarter
- Labyrinth of Skophos

+ High Priest of Penance
+ Recruiter of the Guard
+ Reliquary Tower
+ Vault of the Archangel

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Well, the USPS is still taking their sweet time to deliver me these cards, so I got desperate and played a game on untap.in and won pretty handily. I got out an early Orzhov Advokist and Noble Heritage against Phage the Untouchable, Wilson, Refined Grizzly/Tavern Brawler, and Phenax, God of Deception. Wilson got off to a quick start, taking my counters and beating everyone down, until the Phage player ragequit because Phenax Mana Drained his Dread Presence (admittedly a bad play). I proceeded to nuke my own Advokist, drawing 13 in the process, which gave me a needed board wipe against a Belt of Giant Strength + Colossification Wilson. He scooped, as did Phenax. Success!

Game 2 I started with Sol Ring into a Thought Vessel against Sakashima of a Thousand Faces/Tana, the Bloodsower, Kosei, Penitent Warlord, and Jetmir, Nexus of Revels. Saka/Tana and Jetmir both got off to really slow starts, so I just kinda took over the game, because Sol Ring is a fair and balanced Magic card. I beat people around with a giant halfling for a bit before binning him with Shadowheart, Dark Justiciar and drawing 12, but by this time Saka/Tana, who is a superfriends deck, had stabilized and gone nuts with servos, Garruk Wildspeaker clones, and Mirror Box. Things were getting out of control, but I tutored into a Damn, played it with Flawless Maneuver, and took out Saka/Tana. Seeing the writing on the wall, Kosei and Jetmit also scooped. Success!

Pretty pleased so far, but it's only been two games.

EDIT: Woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep because of insomnia, so I decided to hop in for one more game before bed. I joined a "Relaxed" lobby, and found myself up against Rakdos, Lord of Riots, Tymna the Weaver/Tana, the Bloodsower (groan), and Baba Lysaga, Night Witch. What a game! Fortunately, the Tymna/Tana player disconnected, so after battering the Rakdos player who hadn't played a creature for a suspiciously long time, the Lysaga player was able to slowly start pulling ahead thanks to double Lysaga activations because of Patriar's Seal. After a bit of back and forth (and a Kaervek the Merciless beamed right at Lysaga's face, until the Rakdos player inexplicably targeted a World Shaper with 6 lands in the Lysaga's player's yard), Rakdos committed suicide with Cryptolith Fragment at one life, leaving just me and the Lysaga player. I had drawn probably 20 cards with Shadowheart, but my Noble Heritage had been hit twice and I was on my back foot, slinging removal spell after board wipe after removal spell to take care of Lysaga. I was knocked down to one life, and unfortunately was overrun by Snakes from Pharika, God of Affliction. A great game, even if I lost.

It's only one data point, but I think I need some mass artifact removal in the form of Austere Command, I need some way to wipe the board so that I can start taking it over again with my ridiculous card advantage engine.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Finally, mail day.

I had an amazing game on untap.in earlier this morning against Marrow-Gnawer Rats, Xantcha, Sleeper Agent Goad/Chaos, and Firkraag, Cunning Instigator Goad/Control. With so many goads running around, I figured many people would be taking the Noble Heritage counters, but alas, only one person accepted them. Once. I was doing my thing, holding the fort down and drawing cards, but Xantcha started with Sol Ring into Arcane Signet and had rushed out ahead of everyone, dropping several annoying goad creatures and other chaos cards. Marrow-Gnawer didn't get to do much. They had been on their back foot for most of the game due to being the easy punching bag for goaded targets, and Firkraag was playing defensively behind a Propaganda and a few dragons. Eventually, Xantcha played a Rite of the Raging Storm. Let me repeat: Xantcha played a card that allowed me to easily draw 7 cards a turn. So I did. For 5 turns. By this point, Marrow-Gnawer had been knocked out, and my Windborn Muse was all that was keeping me from being overrun by dragons and other nasty things. Firkraag had played an Astral Dragon copying their Propaganda, so a stalemate endured while I was drawing all those cards. Eventually, an overloaded Vandalblast from Xantcha took out my mana rocks and, importantly, Firkraag's Lightning Greaves. After discarding 20+ cards due to losing Thought Vessel, an overloaded Spectacular Showdown from Firkraag backfired massively, as I quickly took out Xantcha on the back of God-Eternal Oketra, 2 zombie warriors, and a Dauthi Voidwalker. Firkraag tried to Blasphemous Act me, but a quick Teferi's Protection saved me and allowed me to crack back for the win. A+ game, would sling spells again.

MVP - Rite of the Raging Storm and Teferi's Protection

EDIT: Well, a couple of changes:

Palace Jailer is out. Monarch is nice and all, but Jailer himself is a poor enabler. For this deck, Thorn of the Black Rose is better, but since I'm light in distinct win conditions I'm going to give Oketra the True a shot. The indestructible is great protection, obviously, so I feel safer piling on +1/+1 counters without fear of losing them, and the three creature criteria isn't difficult to meet at all with this deck.

Sword of Truth and Justice has been super awkward each time I drew it, and it's vastly inferior to Empyrial Plate, which is incredibly bananas with Shadowheart and Thought Vessel/Reliquary Tower. I was briefly considering Hand of Vecna for a similar effect, but the redundancy is less necessary with so many tutors and Austere Command solves a lot of the problems I ran into with this deck so far. It's a little on the high mv side, but as my only 6 drop it should be okay.

Finally, I'm dropping Shineshadow Snarl for Sejiri Glacier. The Snarls kind of suck, and are worse than a Temple in the mid and late game when it's a topdeck and you have no other lands in hand. Hell, a Concealed Courtyard would be better, but the MDFC is great here.

- Palace Jailer
- Sword of Truth and Justice
- Shineshadow Snarl

+ Oketra the True
+ Austere Command
+ Sejiri Glacier

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

I haven't forgotten this thread, no way.

I've made a few minor cosmetic changes to how the list is laid out, but more importantly, I've added in some more beef and more mass removal at the cost of recursion and spot removal.

Angelic Overseer seems real bad on paper, but when your commander is a human and also puts +1/+1 counters on something every turn, all of a sudden that nearly unkillable angel starts to look very threatening. I also run 11 other humans, which is a reasonable amount to turn her into a relevant beatstick.

Retribution of the Meek is an obvious include. It seems weird to run but it and Austere Command but being able to sweep up artifacts and enchantments can be useful, too. Leaving Shadowheart alive after you sacrifice your big beef is an incredible play, of course.

So, what to cut?

Phyrexian Reclamation has been a consistent underperformer, surprisingly. I've had it out in a few games and it mostly just sat there while I was spending my mana on other things. Typically, 4mv for a 2mv creature isn't where you want to be.

Murderous Rider is also a tough cut. Removal is wonderful, but I run so much of it that it's a bit redundant, even if it can theoretically come back to get counters on it and gain me a bunch of life.

- Phyrexian Reclamation
- Murderous Rider

+ Angelic Overseer
+ Retribution of the Meek

And one last thing:

- Shambling Vent
- Swamp

+ Kor Haven
+ Plains

EDIT: One last change, because I needed to get the percentage of my opening gambit over 50%:

- Grim Tutor
+ Everflowing Chalice

Honestly, there aren't many tutor targets worth getting, and the ones I do want to get are generally expensive mana wise. Grimmy is a tough cut but I think the deck running smoother is worth the cut to utility.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

One last update for the road:

Well, I realized Loyal Warhound isn't very consistent and despite having a reasonable power to cost ratio, it just doesn't do enough to justify a spot. Esper Sentinel shores up my non-Shadowheart draw potential and also scales incredibly well with counters.. Also, Flumph and Wall of Omens are fine and all, but Concealing Curtains beats down and can also help get rid of removal that might otherwise hinder us. Voice of the Blessed is an okay looking beat stick with four counters and an absolute monster if it makes it to 10. I could use more win conditions, so I'll give it a shot.

- Loyal Warhound
- Flumph
- Wall of Omens

+ Esper Sentinel
+ Concealing Curtains
+ Voice of the Blessed

Finally, I changed my minds on the mana rocks (again). 11 is probably sufficient; after all, it's only a 1% change in likelihood for my ideal opening, which isn't much of a difference. Duelist's Heritage is back in. Because of this, Twinblade Geist is out for Adorned Pouncer as it scales better and with Heritage it's much easier to give my other creatures double strike on demand as well as my opponents' creatures.

- Everflowing Chalice
- Twinblade Geist

+ Duelist's Heritage
+ Adorned Pouncer

I also made some more cosmetic changes to how the decklist is presented. Rather than just a huge clump of creatures, I divided them into categories that align with the other spells I'm using to give an idea of the ratios I run for each.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

I didn't forget about this deck, but I've made several changes since the last time I updated this thread.

Chief among those changes is cutting the mana rocks. If Shadowheart, Dark Justiciar is coming in on turn 4 anyway, then it doesn't really benefit me to ramp into a 2mv creature and Noble Heritage on turn 3. The rocks are an opportunity cost I don't want to pay. I think, due to the deck's reliance on its commander, it's better to instead focus on keeping her in play rather than being able to ramp into her more easily later on. The most significant advantages of this has been consistency of land drops and being able to run more 3mv creatures which tend to have a higher impact than 2mv creatures.

Other than that, the changes were pretty minor. A creature here or there, Loran's Escape for Blacksmith's Skill, and some of the lands around.

I'm excited to get some more testing in this Thursday.

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