Is White getting better?

[onering]

One way the protector is better against riff though is that she will be bounced by rift and return all your dudes to the field, making it so rift isn't effective at setting up an alpha strike, unlike Guardian. You also get to benefit from any etb effects, though that's just icing on the cake.

[pokken]

One way the protector is better against riff though is that she will be bounced by rift and return all your dudes to the field, making it so rift isn't effective at setting up an alpha strike, unlike Guardian. You also get to benefit from any etb effects, though that's just icing on the cake.

Yeah it's much stronger if people are setting up alpha strikes. The rift-untap-alpha is not a super common play pattern in my group but it does happen.

I enjoy the guardian then kill them on the crack back with breena (which doesn't work with guardian since it removes counters).

what I mostly have found is that it's worth taking that risk because of how much less 3 is than 4?

[NZB2323]

One way the protector is better against riff though is that she will be bounced by rift and return all your dudes to the field, making it so rift isn't effective at setting up an alpha strike, unlike Guardian. You also get to benefit from any etb effects, though that's just icing on the cake.

Yeah it's much stronger if people are setting up alpha strikes. The rift-untap-alpha is not a super common play pattern in my group but it does happen.

I enjoy the guardian then kill them on the crack back with breena (which doesn't work with guardian since it removes counters).

what I mostly have found is that it's worth taking that risk because of how much less 3 is than 4?

Yeah, guardian is probably better because it cost 1 less mana. I just like GP more because it's a cleric and I like how if a blue player is casting rift and then returning it to their hand you can keep playing GP in response.

But my overall point is I want white to get more cards like GP and guardian that aren't overpowered but can answer some of the most powerful cards in the format. I think giving white creatures with flash that are answers allows them to interact in this format better. Give me guardians that can answer Dockside Extortionist and Temporal Manipulation.

And I totally would be down for pathfinder's idea of a white legend that can create clues. Maybe it could also have a way of generating treasures? Like whenever you cast a creature spell create a clue. Whenever a creature you control deals damage to an opponent, creature a treasure.

[pokken]

White could really use an Alms Collector for treasures (or all tokens). we both get tokens!

[BeneTleilax]

I love Guardian in Millicent. It looks like a fragile, dumb, swarm tribal deck, and it kind of is, but it's just alarmingly resilient to removal. I hope white gets more tricks like this to surprise those who underestimate it

[NZB2323]

White could really use an Alms Collector for treasures (or all tokens). we both get tokens!

Yeah, and I'd really like an Alms Collector that cost less mana. Like Pathfinder said, holding up 4 mana can be a lot. That changes if white gets more creatures with flash though.

Considering Dockside Extortionist only cost 2 mana a card that answers it shouldn't cost 4.

[Cyberium]

Considering Dockside Extortionist only cost 2 mana a card that answers it shouldn't cost 4.

3cc maybe, consider Alms Collector is a continuous effect.

[NZB2323]

Considering Dockside Extortionist only cost 2 mana a card that answers it shouldn't cost 4.

3cc maybe, consider Alms Collector is a continuous effect.

I don't know about that. Once Alms collector is on the battlefield players can chose not to play cards that affect it or destroy it. I was playing a game last night and noticed something:

Black has Waste Not, a continuous effect that gives black card advantage, mana, and creatures off of a black effect, and it only cost 2 mana.

Black also has Dauthi Voidwalker, a continuous effect that gives black graveyard hate and can be sacrificed for card advantage/card selection, and it only cost 2 mana.

Black also has Opposition Agent, a continuous effect that gives black search hate and card advantage and only cost 3 mana.

I know that black is supposed to be better at card advantage than white, but usually it's supposed to cost black something, either life or sacrificing a creature. All these cards provide black with card advantage, and waste not with mana without black having to pay with life or sacrificing creatures.

White is supposed to be the color of hatebears but Dauthi Voidwalker and Opposition Agent are better hatebears than any white card. What's frustrating is they were both printed recently while they're trying to make white more competitive.

I think there's a number of ways you could solve this, and I'd like a white commander that encourages you to play mono-white but isn't too strong. Something like:

Wwww
X
Whenever X enters the battlefield, you may exile any number of cards in graveyards equal to your devotion to white.
Whenever you cast a creature spell, investigate.
Whenever you cast an enchantment spell, create a treasure.
1/4

[Sinis]

Black also has Dauthi Voidwalker, a continuous effect that gives black graveyard hate and can be sacrificed for card advantage/card selection, and it only cost 2 mana.

Black also has Opposition Agent, a continuous effect that gives black search hate and card advantage and only cost 3 mana.

I know that black is supposed to be better at card advantage than white, but usually it's supposed to cost black something, either life or sacrificing a creature. All these cards provide black with card advantage, and waste not with mana without black having to pay with life or sacrificing creatures.

White is supposed to be the color of hatebears but Dauthi Voidwalker and Opposition Agent are better hatebears than any white card. What's frustrating is they were both printed recently while they're trying to make white more competitive.

This is one of the things I was getting at with the original post. White cards are being printed that are better than older white cards, but I don't think that they're actually keeping pace with what the other colours are getting.

For example: Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire is better than other crappy white draft chaff, but blue and green got better. Wedding Announcement // Wedding Festivity is better than previous white card draw, but, like Military Intelligence is from M15.

White has gotten better cards than what they've had previously, yes, but I think every other colour has gotten cards better by a significant margin.

[Jemolk]

White has gotten better cards than what they've had previously, yes, but I think every other colour has gotten cards better by a significant margin.

Pretty much this. Which, for anyone who wants to push power levels, I'm sure really bites. Fortunately enough for me, I'm quite happy with the current power limits of white as the upper boundary for power levels anyway, so my real gripe is with the excessively powerful cards that other colors have been getting, and which for the most part I can ignore. Whereas, for anyone who wants the power level other colors have been hitting, or who doesn't want to actively police their power levels at all, having white be this much weaker seems likely to be pretty annoying.

I will say, you don't have to hold up 4 mana for Glorious Protector if you foretell it. Though, the non-Angel clause annoys me. Did they really need that specific safety valve? If it needed a safety valve at all, why couldn't it have been "creatures not named Glorious Protector"? Because honestly, the only thing that white doesn't have that I keep being annoyed by is Angel Tribal support. Well, that and new, good instant speed creature removal. White hasn't gotten anything that compares to Path to Exile, let alone Swords to Plowshares, in ages. I suppose Fateful Absence might be in the ballpark, though.

[Sinis]

White has gotten better cards than what they've had previously, yes, but I think every other colour has gotten cards better by a significant margin.

Pretty much this. Which, for anyone who wants to push power levels, I'm sure really bites. Fortunately enough for me, I'm quite happy with the current power limits of white as the upper boundary for power levels anyway, so my real gripe is with the excessively powerful cards that other colors have been getting, and which for the most part I can ignore. Whereas, for anyone who wants the power level other colors have been hitting, or who doesn't want to actively police their power levels at all, having white be this much weaker seems likely to be pretty annoying.

I guess my stance is that while I'd rather the overall power level of the game be lower, that ship has sailed. The cat is out of the bag, and we can't unprint all the pushed cards that have appeared since 2019. If Green is going to get cards with ludicrous ceilings like Cultivator Colossus or, they'll make colour 'fun colour pie bends' like Oversimplify 'just this once' for other colours, I think they should make those cards with high ceilings and fun colour pie bends (just this once!) for white.

I will say, you don't have to hold up 4 mana for Glorious Protector if you foretell it. Though, the non-Angel clause annoys me. Did they really need that specific safety valve? If it needed a safety valve at all, why couldn't it have been "creatures not named Glorious Protector"? Because honestly, the only thing that white doesn't have that I keep being annoyed by is Angel Tribal support.

For Glorious Protector, I think it's so it doesn't combo with Restoration Angel, or Wispweaver Angel, etc. I think they probably intend on designing more angels in this space, so it's probably a kind of future proofing plus not making it combo with itself, even if it's hardly currently worthy of consideration (IMO).

Well, that and new, good instant speed creature removal. White hasn't gotten anything that compares to Path to Exile, let alone Swords to Plowshares, in ages. I suppose Fateful Absence might be in the ballpark, though.

I frequently make jokes about spoiled white removal cards. Like here.

[NZB2323]

I still think White is better than what is was in 2015, it's just not at the level of the other colors. Since 2015 white has got Sram, Senior Edificer, Legion's Landing // Adanto, the First Fort, Smothering Tithe, Heliod, Sun-Crowned, Generous Gift, Drannith Magistrate, Fateful Absence, Esper Sentinel, Guardian of Faith, and my pet card, Glorious Protector.

The thing is, in 2015 blue, black, and green were already busted. Red has gotten better cards, but in 2015 Krenko, Mob Boss was one of the best decks, and we had access to a lot less legends then.

There have been lots of great multicolored cards printed, and there really isn't a strong reason to run mono white, unless we get some devotion heavy cards. It seems like this is happening for all color pairs. I think the most popular color combination now is a 5 colored deck, and 3 colored decks are more popular than 2 colored decks, which are more popular than mono colored decks.

[RadiantSophia]

As a mostly limited player, am I even allowed to participate in this conversation?

[Mookie]

As a mostly limited player, am I even allowed to participate in this conversation?

Obviously not - Limited has always been perfectly balanced!

More seriously, I am curious how balance has felt from a Limited perspective - those formats obviously have very different requirements that EDH, and I feel like they generally play better to White's strengths (ex: go-wide strategies are better due to there being fewer board wipes, small creatures are more important due to lower curves).

[duducrash]

Wwww
X
Whenever X enters the battlefield, you may exile any number of cards in graveyards equal to your devotion to white.
Whenever you cast a creature spell, investigate.
Whenever you cast an enchantment spell, create a treasure.
1/4

Thats one hell of a character arc for X

[Jemolk]

White has gotten better cards than what they've had previously, yes, but I think every other colour has gotten cards better by a significant margin.

Pretty much this. Which, for anyone who wants to push power levels, I'm sure really bites. Fortunately enough for me, I'm quite happy with the current power limits of white as the upper boundary for power levels anyway, so my real gripe is with the excessively powerful cards that other colors have been getting, and which for the most part I can ignore. Whereas, for anyone who wants the power level other colors have been hitting, or who doesn't want to actively police their power levels at all, having white be this much weaker seems likely to be pretty annoying.

I guess my stance is that while I'd rather the overall power level of the game be lower, that ship has sailed. The cat is out of the bag, and we can't unprint all the pushed cards that have appeared since 2019. If Green is going to get cards with ludicrous ceilings like Cultivator Colossus or, they'll make colour 'fun colour pie bends' like Oversimplify 'just this once' for other colours, I think they should make those cards with high ceilings and fun colour pie bends (just this once!) for white.

Personally, I don't find those cards very fun, and will actively avoid playing with them. I'd also prefer if as few people as possible are tempted to do so. So, for me, even if they happen, rarer is better, even if that means that some colors don't get them. Oversimplify doesn't seem remotely like a fun bend to me, either. So it's not just that I wish those cards didn't exist -- it's that I'll actively try to pretend that they don't both when building and playing. And the more of them there are, and the more widespread they are, the harder that is to do. Your perspective makes sense to me, as well, but my preference remains, even so.

I will say, you don't have to hold up 4 mana for Glorious Protector if you foretell it. Though, the non-Angel clause annoys me. Did they really need that specific safety valve? If it needed a safety valve at all, why couldn't it have been "creatures not named Glorious Protector"? Because honestly, the only thing that white doesn't have that I keep being annoyed by is Angel Tribal support.

For Glorious Protector, I think it's so it doesn't combo with Restoration Angel, or Wispweaver Angel, etc. I think they probably intend on designing more angels in this space, so it's probably a kind of future proofing plus not making it combo with itself, even if it's hardly currently worthy of consideration (IMO).

That seems pretty in line with your complaint, actually. A three card combo (because all that happens without a payoff is infinite ETBs) where at two of the pieces cost 4+ mana doesn't seem like something WotC has been actually policing well outside of white, and it's not like all the blink effects are angels anyway, so it doesn't even work very well. Felidar Guardian plus Glorious Protector goes exactly as infinite as Glorious Protector without the safety valve plus Wispweaver Angel. So it's just hacking white cards off at the knees needlessly, harming white tribes and archetypes, and not even getting any real benefit out of it. I can definitely get behind the idea that ensuring that white cards are impossible to abuse is far too high a priority. It's the rest of the argument, involving white variants of Cultivator Colossi, Opposition Agents, and Dockside Extortionists that I object to. As I said above, those are things I'd prefer to not exist at all, and failing that, I'd prefer they exist in numbers as limited as possible, regardless of what that means for color balance at the top end of the format.

Well, that and new, good instant speed creature removal. White hasn't gotten anything that compares to Path to Exile, let alone Swords to Plowshares, in ages. I suppose Fateful Absence might be in the ballpark, though.

I frequently make jokes about spoiled white removal cards. Like here.

Hits the nail on the head TBH.

[NZB2323]

Well white just got halo fountain and elspeth resplendent as card draw. Halo Fountain would be best in selesnya or naya token decks.

I'm not sure the best deck for the new Elspeth. The most played 3 drops in the format are Rhystic Study, Eternal Witness, Rhythm of the Wild, Reclamation Sage, Commander's Sphere, and Faeburrow Elder.

The best 3 drops in mono white are probably Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Aven Mindcensor, Fiend Hunter, Banisher Priest, Ghostly Prison, Mentor of the Meek, Archaeomancer's Map, Mesa Enchantress, Aura of Silence, Recruiter of the Guard, Mirror Entity, Heliod, Sun-Crowned, and Danitha Capashen, Paragon.

[5colorsrainbow]

They also showed off Rumor Gatherer which lets you draw as well.

[pokken]

man new elspeth resplendent is the first walker I havegiven serious thought to for a while. basically guaranteed to ramp one at least. Very nice

the +1 is very strong too, I'm always craving that lifegain. Nice card.


halo fountain seem sok, has some applications. Definitely a cool effect.

[onering]

As a mostly limited player, am I even allowed to participate in this conversation?

Obviously not - Limited has always been perfectly balanced!

More seriously, I am curious how balance has felt from a Limited perspective - those formats obviously have very different requirements that EDH, and I feel like they generally play better to White's strengths (ex: go-wide strategies are better due to there being fewer board wipes, small creatures are more important due to lower curves).

White has been pretty solid in limited. Pushing white too hard in drafted sets could unbalance limited in ways pushing other colors often doesn't. But this shouldn't be a real constraint on Wizards designing for white. The push doesn't have to come entirely from limited. There are good white effects that are just ok in limited that can be pushed without breaking limited formats, especially at rare and mythic, and sealed products present ample opportunity to push white spells that would be fine in constructed but unbalance limited. They've been doing that for the other colors, when they should be doing it for white.

[Sinis]

As a mostly limited player, am I even allowed to participate in this conversation?

I made this topic mostly with EDH in mind. It's no secret that White performs okay in other formats; Death and Taxes is (ironically) one of the longest enduring Legacy decks in existence, and even cEDH favours white for a few staples (like Silence, Grand Abolisher, or Rule of Law style effects).

By all means, chime in, but I'm not sure how this thread applies to other formats, especially limited, and I'm not sure other posters will have much to say (other than with a perspective on EDH).

[ISBPathfinder]

Its always concerning when white gets like..... a few moderately ok new cards and then you see the newest Boseiju, Who Endures or whatever cards that green / blue seem to always get. It just always feels like for every step you see white take forward there is some new format warping green / blue thing released.

[pokken]

Its always concerning when white gets like..... a few moderately ok new cards and then you see the newest Boseiju, Who Endures or whatever cards that green / blue seem to always get. It just always feels like for every step you see white take forward there is some new format warping green / blue thing released.

Red is getting pretty off the chain wit the treasure nonsense now too.

[ISBPathfinder]

Red is getting pretty off the chain wit the treasure nonsense now too.

Dockside is impressive but I don't know that I have seen enough that makes the transition to commander to be convinced that its a normal thing for red. Lots of the treasure stuff has been good enough for 60 card but very little of it has seemed to jump the gap for commander.

[pokken]

Dockside is impressive but I don't know that I have seen enough that makes the transition to commander to be convinced that its a normal thing for red. Lots of the treasure stuff has been good enough for 60 card but very little of it has seemed to jump the gap for commander.

the cashmobile is definitely gonna see a lot of play Hoard Hauler -- oh and Professional Face-Breaker

Goldspan Dragon is a recent one that's caught on pretty good too.

and of course red gets powerhouses like Terror of the Peaks with some regularity