Popular mtg artist Seb McKinnon at Canada Trucker Freedom rally

[Outcryqq]

What: Instagram showing MTG artist Seb McKinnon at a Trucker Freedom rally in Canada.

Why should anyone care: it's an anti-vaxx rally. Many organizers are tied to white supremacy: https://www.antihate.ca/the_freedom_con ... _far_right
(TLDR: swasticas, confederate flags, white supremacist ties to organizers, trashing local businesses)

Seb's instragram had a response in which he says that the media has distorted the rally's purpose, and that he stands for certain ideas: freedom of choice and body sovereignty, informed medical consent, no QR codes, no mandates, no lockdowns, no restrictions.

Myself and others posted threads about other big news about mtg artists, so I thought this was worth a discussion. Since I'm making the tread, I'll throw out my opinion: I love Seb's art, and I despise that he has aligned himself with a group of people founded on hatred and violence.

Mods: if this is in the wrong place or violates any rules, let me know!

[TheAmericanSpirit]

So long as a given individual doesn't do anything criminal or objectively evil, I could care less what they believe or about the company they keep. I'll live my life, they can live theirs.

[BeneTleilax]

It's not a hate group, it's not spreading misinformation, I'm fine with it? Seems like they agree COVID exists and vaccines work, they just disagree on what to do with that information.

[motleyslayer]

I'd like to remind everyone to follow all rules on Nexus and this sub-forum. Any activity that breaks the rules, including flaming, trolling, hate speech etc will not be tolerated and will be handled accordingly.

I'm perfectly fine with this discussion, but please keep it civil and respectful of each other and the rules.

thanks everyone-motleyslayer

[Legend]

What: Instagram showing MTG artist Seb McKinnon at a Trucker Freedom rally in Canada.

Why should anyone care: it's an anti-vaxx rally. Many organizers are tied to white supremacy: https://www.antihate.ca/the_freedom_con ... _far_right
(TLDR: swasticas, confederate flags, white supremacist ties to organizers, trashing local businesses)

Why no one should care: Agreeing with an ideologist that 2+2=4 doesn't "align" you with their ideology. Seb, like most participants, isn't there because he's a supremacist or whatever, he's there to nip the buds of tyranny and being there doesn't somehow align them with the ideologies of others there.

[Wallycaine]

Well that's incredibly %$#%. As the saying goes, if you've got 1 Nazi at dinner and 10 other people, you've got 11 Nazi's. If Seb was truly that committed to his 'ideals', he'd find a different rally and ensure that no Nazis were welcome there. Sadly, he didn't. I won't be shocked when he doubles down and goes full white supremacist, claiming that people "drove him" to it.

[duducrash]

There is no such thing as a good perdon marching alongside white supremacists. Its a sad day

[Legend]

Well that's incredibly %$#%. As the saying goes, if you've got 1 Nazi at dinner and 10 other people, you've got 11 Nazi's. If Seb was truly that committed to his 'ideals', he'd find a different rally and ensure that no Nazis were welcome there. Sadly, he didn't. I won't be shocked when he doubles down and goes full white supremacist, claiming that people "drove him" to it.

If association determines ideology, what happens when ten Muslims dine with a Nazi?

There is no such thing as a good perdon marching alongside white supremacists. Its a sad day

If proximity determines ideology, what happens when an atheist marches alongside Christians?

[duducrash]

@Legend people with different views of the world can coexist. I dont see how what I said points to otherwise. English isnt my primary language so maybe it got lost in translation.

What cant exist is tolerance with white supremacists and nazis. A nazi isnt someone with a slightly different viewpoint in the world, a nazi wants me dead. Someome who marches ALONGSIDE a nazi without deplataforming their speech is overlooking literal past genocide and while not stopping future ones. There is no such thing as "nip the buds of tyranny" when nazis are in your trenches. Their endgoal is the wipping me from the face of the earth alongside most of my loved ones. I trully dont know what else to say if it isnt clear as day. Literal nazis

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@duducrash with all due respect, the idea of guilt by association is painting with a broad brush, i.e. anathema to tolerance and understanding. For example, I was at the capitol on January 6th at the Trump rally turned insurrection. Was I there to voice my support for Trump? No. Was I there to join arms with nazis and neoconfederates? No, but they were a handful of each present. Was I there to destroy my own capitol building and overthrow my own government? Certainly not.

I was there because my best friend was otherwise going alone and I wanted to keep him out of trouble. It was my advice that got us out of town before things got ugly (we were off and driving home by 2; %$#% hit the fan around 3 from my understanding). I dissuaded him from antagonizing the couterprotesters. I made sure we stayed hydrated the whole time.

Am I a nazi or neoconfederate? No, I'm probably more of Diet Marxist at the end of the day. I'm the shaggy son of an Irishman and a Puerto Rican lady, a mutt with no causes to align with outside of loyalty to good friends. So maybe there aren't 11 nazis at that dinner party after all, maybe they're all individuals with unique motivations for attending and they should being given the respect of proper inquiry before being labeled as compatriots to literally the most monstrous group of people to ever exist (except the one nazi, kick that guy's ass).

EDIT: so the more I think about 11 Nazi dinner party idiom, the more complicated it becomes. Did the nazi invite them to the dinner party? If so, he'd probably invite people sympathetic to his wacko ideals, so there are likely 11 nazis. BUT what if they don't know he's a nazi? Maybe they were suckered in by a mild-mannered exterior by a secret nazi. Are there still 11 nazis present? Furthermore, what if this secret nazi was only a guest, not the host? There could still be only one nazi present in such a scenario. Alternatively, what if it's a 10 person dinner and a nazi crashes the party? The nazi is technically present at the party, but I doubt he'd be very welcome. So there's now one nazi and 9 passive-aggressive guests and an increasingly-murderous-by-the-second host. But I can't imagine a scenario everyone starts goose-stepping because of one nazi. They're very unpopular people.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

I was there because my best friend was otherwise going alone

Why was your best friend going? If the purpose was for any of the reasons you listed above, then in your position I would not have let them go in the first place, and if I could not stop them, I would not go along.

I dissuaded him from antagonizing the couterprotesters. I made sure we stayed hydrated the whole time.

I would not associate with this friend.

So maybe there aren't 11 nazis at that dinner party after all, maybe they're all individuals with unique motivations for attending

My immediate question would be why the other ten are allowing the Nazi to dine with them, or are agreeing to go dine with a Nazi in the first place. The association is THAT BAD.

EDIT: If there is a dinner party, and it's very clear one of the guests is a Nazi, then it doesn't look good for the other ten if the Nazi continues to attend the party.

EDIT2: It does not matter how noble or worthy your cause is, like you can march against climate change or racism or fascism or whatever, it never justifies marching with Nazis. You kick them out. Don't let march. Chase em' out! Nothing is worth that. Don't even give them that.

[RadiantSophia]

By his manifesto there, he is clearly a wacko, but so what? The world has always had crazy nutbars (usually in the arts), and always will.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@Sporegorger_Dragon You can pick your friends, I'll pick mine. Dude's been solid and there for me like none other. Idgaf that he supports trump. I value people I can count on, not people I agree with.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

Why no one should care: Agreeing with an ideologist that 2+2=4 doesn't "align" you with their ideology.

A Nazi might agree with me on climate change, but they still should be not invited to any climate change rally, and if they do attend I'm bowing out.

Like imagine we're marching to protest against censorship, and a bunch of pedophiles show up, of course we're not going to let them join us. If we do, that sends a message we are willing to tolerate them for the sake of our goal. Same with Nazis marching with you.

The problem is collaboration/cooperation, even on something we all agree is good, only legitimizes, strengthens and normalizes Nazis in public.

[Legend]

A Nazi might agree with me on climate change, but they still should be not invited to any climate change rally, and if they do attend I'm bowing out.

A protest of millions spanning days and thousands of miles is too large to weed out a few bad apples. They're probably government plants anyways, but even if they aren't, 15 assholes with swastikas don't pose an imminent threat to an entire nation, but actual Nazis like Trudeau and his government do.

motleyslayer

warning issued for flaming.

Like imagine we're marching to protest against censorship, and a bunch of pedophiles show up, of course we're not going to let them join us. If we do, that sends a message we are willing to tolerate them for the sake of our goal. Same with Nazis marching with you.

I can't think of a better way for a government to slander a protest than to raise swastika flags and then make sure the Ministry of Truth propagates the image along with the "fringe minority" rhetoric.

collaboration/cooperation

I agree. Good thing there is none.

[Sporegorger_Dragon]

actual Nazis like Trudeau and his government do.

Ah, ok, see this. This explains everything I need to know about you.

[duducrash]

They're probably government plants anyways, but even if they aren't,

(...)

I can't think of a better way for a government to slander a protest than to raise swastika flags and then make sure the Ministry of Truth propagates the image along with the "fringe minority" rhetoric.

I was 100% not expecting conspiracy theory and dismissal of minorities concerns while dealing with literal nazis. I will not expand my feelings because this isnt sitting at a table with a nazi, this is making an excuse to why sitting at a table with a nazi isnt actually that bad. At the end of the day everyone that doesnt take hate groups into serious consideration cares much more about QR codes than they care about my life so the point is probably lost

[BeneTleilax]

I can't think of a better way for a government to slander a protest than to raise swastika flags and then make sure the Ministry of Truth propagates the image along with the "fringe minority" rhetoric.

I can think of many (superspreader event, attritive hassles, targeting the actual organizers). All these conspiracy theories lack imagination; actual malevolent governments with this much power don't use methods this blunt on their own soil. Occam's razor cuts this wide open.

actual Nazis like Trudeau and his government do.

Seriously?

Now that some of the silliness is dispelled, I would like to define my own point. I think that freedom, if it is to benefit civil society and the advancement of the sciences, must include the freedom to be foolish. The present state of any field often seems commonsense; and the commonsense often becomes widely accepted. Contrary to that one quote from 1984, freedom is not only the freedom to say 2+2=4, it's also the freedom to say 2+2=5. Like silt moving through a pipe, progress comes as often from chaotic jostling as it does from slow inevitability or steady and deliberate action.

Dr. Lynn Margulis makes a decent parable for this, I think. Unlike Darwin, or Gallileo, her story is not overused to cliche in these debates, as also unlike Darwin or Gallileo, her story is not as tidy. She discovered endosymbiosis, the mitochondrion and the fundamentals of coevolution as we understand them in the '60s. She was, as follows the form of these parables, rebuked. It was considered foolishness, bordering on anti-evolutionism. So she went where she was welcome, with the fools. She spoke at creationist rallies, at AIDS-conspiracy conferences and general fringe-science crank gatherings. She cannot, however, be reduced to those she associated with, nor to her own folly. I would be surprised if there weren't a few Nazis, Christian Dominionists, or eugenicists in the stands when she spoke. Now, with hindsight, we can all say we have sorted her genius from her folly, but placing myself in the past, I cannot say with confidence I would have. Because she had the freedom to be foolish, to reject the commonsense, time, scientific reproduction, and debate could do the sorting.

Now, of course, there must be a line drawn as to which kinds of folly are too dangerous to permit. If some fool decides his bullets are blessed to redeem us, I do not want to wait for his folly to be dispelled by the slow and brownian motion of society. I reckon refusing vaccination falls far beyond this line, as too dangerous a folly to permit. McKinnon, or his friends, draw that line of permissible foolishness more broadly. He, and they, are wrong, but not beyond the pale. Unlike the debate over vaccines it surrounds, I cannot say that debate is settled.

tl;dr: I wouldn't hang out with McKinnon, but I don't think he should lose his job for associating with people who associate with Nazis.

[RxPhantom]

This bums me out. These discussions always center around personal freedom, specifically about whether or not to get a shot. I'd like the freedom to avoid exposure to a pathogen that has upended our lives for over two years now. I'd like the freedom to be insulated from the consequences of other people's poor decisions.

As for the rally itself, I don't think the organizers had the most noble intentions, but it doesn't appear that they themselves are extremists. I'd say that it was co-opted by quite a few fringe groups with....ummm...let's just say bad ideas.

Anyway, Seb shouldn't lose work or anything, but I'm disappointed that he thinks this way.

[Legend]

I was 100% not expecting conspiracy theory and dismissal of minorities concerns while dealing with literal nazis. I will not expand my feelings because this isnt sitting at a table with a nazi, this is making an excuse to why sitting at a table with a nazi isnt actually that bad. At the end of the day everyone that doesnt take hate groups into serious consideration cares much more about QR codes than they care about my life so the point is probably lost

Of course I take hate groups into serious consideration. I hate hate groups (which always seems a little ironic to me). The point isn't that hate groups are a conspiracy theory (they aren't), to return to the earlier example, it's that maybe the other people at the table don't know one of them embraces Nazi ideals, or maybe they do know but are there to try and help him change, or maybe the table is so large that the other people can't see the guy at the end of the table, or maybe they have no other choice but to be there, or maybe they just haven't left the table yet, or maybe they have pressing issues that are more important than a wannabe Nazi, or maybe they're going to imprison or execute him after dinner. For the most part, I try to assume the best until the worst is proven. If there was a photo that wasn't photoshopped of Seb with a swastika or high-fiving a Nazi, then it'd be safe to assume the worst, but that isn't the case at all.

actual malevolent governments with this much power don't use methods this blunt on their own soil.

They most certainly do. Always have. Always will. Occam's Razor shmoccam's razor.

[Rorseph]

Welp. Looks like I've got some more cards in my collection to give the "Terese Nielsen" treatment.

[BeneTleilax]

They most certainly do. Always have. Always will. Occam's Razor shmoccam's razor.

And this is the conspiracy theory part of your post. I for one am against sweeping, unsupported allegations.

[BlackbirdPlaysMTG]

We have our fair share of Covid deniers and anti-vaccination protesters in The Netherlands. They are tied to different parties and interest groups here, not just the alt-right. What they all seem to have in common are anti-government sentiments. I often consider them fools for their sometimes beyond-the-ridiculous beliefs, but at the same time who am I to take away the freedom to hold these beliefs? There is a delicate balance here I feel. If McKinnon wants to attend these events for the reasons he listed, he is free to do so.

Welp. Looks like I've got some more cards in my collection to give the "Terese Nielsen" treatment.

Uh oh. What does that mean ? She has made some of my favourite art pieces in MTG. Especially the Nissa, Vital Force promo... that is one of the cards in my collection that I value the most. Just read a bit about Terese Nielsen 'scandal' (https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2020 ... e-nielsen/), as I did not know about this before.

[motleyslayer]

This thread is turning into quite the argument, so I'm just gonna lock it