Lord Windgrace

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I decided to muse on the possibility of adding in Battlebond and Pathway lands into this deck since I added them to most of my other decks as well. I think that, like Karador, the Pathways don't make as much sense since I have ramp and ramp wants basics so I can't go too low on those. I am at 13 currently so there is a little wiggle room there.

Other than basics, nothing stands out to me as lands I would really want to cut. I mentioned above that cutting down on the LD package might be right, so I could trim Strip Mine, Tectonic Edge, and/or Wasteland to make room. This removes some colorless lands from the mix but makes it tougher to deal with opposing lands if I needed to. Otherwise, cutting 1 basic from each type could be right as well. That still leaves me with 10 basics which seems a little low but not awful. There also might be an argument for Miren here just as there might be an argument for it in Karador. It is expensive. That is the main thing against it.

I don't plan on making these changes yet, especially as I am trying to see where I really want to go with this deck, but I think there could be a reason to do more with some more duals over basics or other utility lands.

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Post by blinx28 » 3 years ago

Great to catch these write-ups, and hello from the Varina thread :)

I decided recently to convert my Korvold lands deck to Windgrace...i don't wan't to play a busted commander (well as busted) although the dragon def stays in the 99. That being said, I loved the playstyle of massive land sacs alongside the landfall stuff, just to take a bit of a different angle on him than MLD or all landfall tokens.

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/windgrace-land-loops-7/

Was hoping you might put eyes on this version and lmk your thoughts having playtested for years---i haven't had a chance to jam it, but some thoughts I hope to learn more from you about follow here:

1: I have included Reprocess and God-Eternal Bontu to mimic some of what I loved about Korvold, albeit a bit slower by design. I hope to leverage these cards for additional value by leaving Mayhem Devil in as a pinger/finisher, but also use things like Tunneling Geopede and Retreat to Hagra in the same way...do you think Spitfire Lagac is worth slotting at an extra 1CMC? Is pinging in this way a real. wincon?

2: It's not a token abuse build but Windgrace needs blockers...i'm leaving in Worm Harvest and Titania, Protector of Argoth due to their synergy with the mass saccing I want to do, but wondering if you think Scute Swarm is a bit too oppressive having tried it out.

3: Any general thoughts you have on value pieces i'm missing and swaps from my list based on underperforming in your experience---i yanked Evolution Sage preemptively but it has incidental synergy with Korvold, Fae-Cursed King and Ob Nixilis, the Fallen so wondering if I really should clear a slot there (maybe scute if its one too many wincons).

Anyway that's a lot and thanks in advance for your time and thinking here---excited to take the nitrous tank out of the command zone and do something just a bit more risky trying to land dance my way to victory. Glass cannons are fun after all :)

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

@blinx28

That's great that you are looking at this deck as an option and I think some of your thoughts are on point for the deck. Your comment was actually exceptionally well timed as I just finished a slog of a game online and saw basically my entire deck so I can better comment on the different list I am testing out, which I think leans more into the list you are thinking of.

Since I want to type that game summary up, and provide my thoughts on the cards so far, and I have to run errands, I probably won't get to it for a couple hours. But I promise to provide some more specific comments on both my "new" list as well as the one you linked to when I get some time this afternoon. I look forward to reviewing it :)

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I really do not like Titania, Protector of Argoth in this deck at all. Worm harvest I can dig although its lack of flying tokens is a huge gap. Pokes by fliers are the #1 danger to planeswalkers. Both are pretty dang bad with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale though.

I'd probably avoid playing creatures that don't draw cards or kill enemy stuff in this deck. More Fleshbag Marauder looped with Volrath's Stronghold than Omnath, Locus of Rage. You want guys like Bane of Progress who clears the enemy board and then is a powerful blocker, not to play Titania and force someone else to sweep the board then be down a card for your trouble.

You're not really going to be prepared to defend an overwhelming board that comes from Omnath/Titania either as your options are limited and hard to find (things like Heroic Intervention) and often not synergistic with your gameplan (they don't save Planeswalkeres from attacks).

Setting up a Stronghold loop with Eternal Witness and a sweeper is more of a desirable state I think than trying to do whatever with an incidental token army. I'd play the hell out of Skullwinder in this deck too.

Use land tutors to fetch The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale or Maze of Ith to punish creature decks, instead of trying to set up blockers that may or may not be effective.

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Post by blinx28 » 3 years ago

I think something I want to keep in mind is that i know I wont be able to always protect Windgrace, so i'm hoping my build can still win when it's not on the battlefield. Keeping the ramp and land abuse cards there to give me outs in case (and not sure how or when) the tax gets too high or inefficient.

Also dont have tabernacle or ith, so trying to thematically keep everything land....y. I have another naya build for all the old landfall token generators and payoffs including AOZ and Romnath using the new partner Prava of the Steel Legion with Tana, the Bloodsower (where Scute Swarm may land if its too heavy in this deck).

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I just got done playing a game online against Mangara of Corondor, Omnath, Locus of Mana, and Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis. This game was a ridiculous game so this summary is going to be pretty long. I will offer my thoughts on the list, as well as that of Blinx's deck, in a separate thread after I post this one.

The game started off with Kynaois landing a turn 1 Magus of the Vineyard. I had started the game and didn't have black mana but did have a Cultivate. So, I untapped, used the floating 2 mana, and cast Cultivate, planning on grabbing a Swamp so I could play the Phyrexian Reclamation in hand. But Mangara got me with a Mana Tithe (I still maintain this is a terrible card to play in EDH, but it got me). So, I played a land and passed.

Mangara did a little and Omnath cast their general. Kynaois went further into group hug with an Anvil of Bogardan. I was able to get down Spike Weaver on Turn 3 and Lord Windgrace on turn 4. I would have gotten Windgrace earlier, but I did miss a black mana until turn 4 so Anvil really helped. Next turn I dropped in The Big Idea and got some tokens since I didn't want to sac anything for cards yet.

In a short while, Omnath cast Hall of Gemstone which really messed things up for me and Kynaois. Although, Kynaois also dropped in Heartbeat of Spring and Overabundance so we all had plenty of mana. I used my Reclamation that I had cast to get back Ashaya, Soul of the Wild that I had discarded to Anvil and then cast Ashaya and Ulvenwald Hydra on the same turn. I got a Bazaar of Baghdad off the Hydra.

The Heartbeat was still a problem and the mana "doublers" were really pushing Omnath ahead, as expected. Luckily, no one was really drawing too many cards except for me thanks to Windgrace and Tevesh Szat so they couldn't do a lot with the mana. Nor could I thanks to Hall.

A turn or two later though I drew into World Shaper and Reclamation Sage. I named Black with Hall, used the two Green floating from Magus, and cast World Shaper, Sage, and Drana, the Last Bloodchief. I blew up the Hall with Sage.

Mangara was sort of doing stuff and did exile Windgrace and my Bazaar at a couple different times. The did go after Omnath a bit too so they seemed to be pretty smart about who to go after and when. Omnath was mostly kept off storing up tons of mana.

After getting rid of Hall, Mangara cast a Planar Cleansing. Which was basically the best thing that could have happened for me. I lost Tevesh Szat and a couple tokens. And that was it. Ashaya came through in spades there (and did again later; more on that below).

I took this opportunity to swing out at Omnath with Ashaya and Hydra, both 20/20. They scooped before I actually finalized my attacks so I just swung everything at Mangara, though I think it may have glitched out a little as I don't think they took more than 20 damage (which would have been about what the other creatures were). Not that it mattered a lot.

One thing I forgot to mention is that everyone had a ton of lands because of an early Collective Voyage that had 13 mana pumped into it. I ended up getting 7 lands as I didn't want to overextend but everyone else got 13 which made everything else really tough to control.

Now that we were down a player, and I had the biggest board, I was somewhat of the threat. Kynaois finally got their general down and then really heavy into having us all draw cards with thing like Font of Mythos and a couple spells.

Eventually though, I got the rest of my basics. My Reclamation was destroyed but Eternal Witness got it back and then it was exiled. Nissa of Shadowed Boughs came down and just untapped a land to help me cast Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger along with a couple other spells that turn while also keeping up mana for Constant Mists and my Phyrexian Tower in case I needed it. And, it turns out I did.

Mangara continued to be a pain and did a lot to keep the board cleared. They did fire off a Day of Judgment to clear out everything except Ulamog and then they tried to steal it. I just sacrificed him for mana so they couldn't take him.

So, again, the board was cleared but we all kept building back up. And it always seemed like I was ahead of everyone else in that. I had 14 cards in hand one turn. I did what I could to build my board back up and one of the main cards was Scute Swarm. I dropped that in, played a fetch land, cracked it for a Mountain, played Titania, Protector of Argoth, to get back my Volrath's Stronghold that was blown up. I also had Korvold, Fae-Cursed King down during this time so I had been drawing some cards with him. Next turn I cast Omnath, Locus of Rage and got a couple Elementals. I think I only had 3 total though :(

Mangara was able to use all their mana to cast a Storm Herd to get 50 some tokens. I really wanted to use Eternal Witness to get back my Rakdos Charm to just kill them but I couldn't sequence it right to still be able to do stuff so I just cast Extinction Event to get rid of everything. I only lost Ulvenwald Hydra that I had reanimated but I sacrificed it to Diamond Valley to gain 23 life. Which was important since I was at 15.

With this board state, Mangara again attempted to clear the board. I responded by using Stronghold to put Ashaya from my yard on top of my library. I then sacrificed a Scute Swarm token (I had somewhere around 30-40 at this time) to Phyrexian Tower which triggered Korvold to draw me Ashaya. I then activated Winding Canyons with that 2 mana and had just enough mana to flash in Ashaya. I knew this wouldn't save any of my tokens, but it would still save quite a bit of my board. Unfortunately, MTGO doesn't like Scute Swarm. This caused those 40 Scute Swarms to trigger since Ashaya enters as a land and the game crashed after they were all on the stack before they resolved. It is possible someone conceded with the stack like this and that is what caused the crash, but I never got to see what would happen when the smoke cleared.

All in all, this was one hell of a game. A lot of back and forth, though I still don't like the way Kynaois really let it get out of control. Throwing a bunch of mana at everyone and messing up the resource aspect just causes games to sort of descend into chaos which is what happened here.

But whatever...the game still had a lot of interaction and required a careful eye on my and Mangara's part (I don't think Kynaois really cared what was happening and they never became a real threat) which meant that there were a lot of lines that required tight play.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Now, for the game above, I didn't find Drana, the Last Bloodchief to be all that useful. I tried reasonably hard to get some value out of her and I think I was only ever able to get a Wood Elves back. The nonlegendary clause is more important than I thought it would. I will keep an eye on her, but she might not do enough.

Titania, Protector of Argoth on the other hand was pretty good. She was instrumental in getting my Stronghold back and she has a sort of cool interaction with Omnath, Locus of Rage and Ashaya, Soul of the Wild in that any (nontoken) creature that dies with Ashaya on the field generates a token and those tokens can trigger Omnath when they die. It isn't the most powerful "combo" but it is a decent interaction.

With that being said, I am not totally sold on her yet. She really came into play here mostly because I had no other reanimation effects and I really needed Volrath's Stronghold back. Normally, World Shaper and Splendid Reclamation are enough to take care of this and I did actually have Sidisi, Undead Vizier in hand to get to Splendid Reclamation if I needed it.

And, as shown above, Ashaya came through in spades twice which saved my board. I actually don't see Planar Cleansing all that often so I can't say for certain that this interaction is going to come up too often, but I might not give her enough credit with the "nonland" effects out there.

Scute Swarm did a lot in the game above but, at the same time, did basically nothing. I had 4 tokens when casting Extinction Event to get rid of Even CMCs, but still couldn't attack with much as I only had 4. I did end up with the army I mentioned, but it didn't seem like it actually mattered. I think the card seems good for this deck, but I don't know how well it works out in practice most of the time. Not to mention that it crashed MODO :)
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I really do not like Titania, Protector of Argoth in this deck at all. Worm harvest I can dig although its lack of flying tokens is a huge gap. Pokes by fliers are the #1 danger to planeswalkers. Both are pretty dang bad with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale though.
I am still going to test out Titania because of the above game and interaction I mentioned. I am not sure I really want to go into Tabernacle though. It might be right, but it isn't enough I don't think. Yeah, it can get rid of token armies like the one that happened in the game above, but anything I want to get rid of, people are just going to pay the {1} for. I just have a feeling that in a deck like this, it ends up being more of a hindrance than a boon and still doesn't affect enough. Maze is sort of the same. I would rather just lean on Fogs and Glacial Chasm.
I'd probably avoid playing creatures that don't draw cards or kill enemy stuff in this deck. More Fleshbag Marauder looped with Volrath's Stronghold than Omnath, Locus of Rage. You want guys like Bane of Progress who clears the enemy board and then is a powerful blocker, not to play Titania and force someone else to sweep the board then be down a card for your trouble.

You're not really going to be prepared to defend an overwhelming board that comes from Omnath/Titania either as your options are limited and hard to find (things like Heroic Intervention) and often not synergistic with your gameplan (they don't save Planeswalkeres from attacks).

Setting up a Stronghold loop with Eternal Witness and a sweeper is more of a desirable state I think than trying to do whatever with an incidental token army. I'd play the hell out of Skullwinder in this deck too.
I have moved towards cutting Omnath already so I am not opposed to doing the same again in this new list but it seemed like a reasonable top end for the game above. Though, it didn't seem to do a lot. Not sure how much I want to rely on any synergy it has with Titania.

I have been finding things like Fleshbag to not be good enough. Even in Varina, if I don't cast it every turn, people just have too much fodder to throw into it. It doesn't control things enough. I might even rather have something like [[Archfiend of depravity

Your idea of an E Witness loop, and potentially adding in things like Skullwinder, is more up my alley. Nissa helps with this a little as well as it can get those two cards back which can get my sweepers back. I have never liked that Skullwinder gives another player a card too, especially if I can't get rid of someone's graveyard first. Maybe with 2 or 3 opponents, it doesn't end up being quite as bad though? I actually wouldn't mind trying Greenwarden of Murasa too but 6 mana is a lot.

With the token army above, I was really wishing I had a Massacre Wurm but I generally stay away from that because token armies aren't all that commons from what I see and 6 mana is a lot, even with the ramp this deck has.

Worm of the Harvest is another one I saw in the game above and I kept waiting for the right time to use it in the game above. It just never happened. I would rather do plenty of other things besides cast it. It was already questionable when I slotted it in and I don't think it has shown any sort of actual value.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
3 years ago
Great to catch these write-ups, and hello from the Varina thread :)

I decided recently to convert my Korvold lands deck to Windgrace...i don't wan't to play a busted commander (well as busted) although the dragon def stays in the 99. That being said, I loved the playstyle of massive land sacs alongside the landfall stuff, just to take a bit of a different angle on him than MLD or all landfall tokens.
I agree with trying to diversify a little. I hate the MLD angle and I am sort of lukewarm on the token package. I think there might be a place for it, but I find it boring. It isn't bad and others find it fun, so don't take that to mean you shouldn't run it.

As to your list, I will just go through each section you have and offer opinions on them. I am going to ignore lands for now as there isn't much you can do to mess it up and I think I see the majority of the big ones there anyway:

Draw
Tireless Tracker, Valakut Exploration, and Nahiri's Lithoforming seem like they are not needed. Though, I will admit Tracker does synergize fairly well, I think all of these are ones that end up being superfluous with Windgace, Korvold (man I am really liking Korvold so far), and Bontu. Reprocess is another that might not be great but I think I would place it above Lithoforming. It doesn't let you play more lands, but it does let you sac more than just lands. And, if you wanted to sac lands, you also get to sac World Shaper at the same time as lands so you sort of have your own built in land recursion with the card. You can get blown out with this so I would just advise caution if you go that route.

Otherwise, the rest seem pretty solid. I like Bontu and might be willing to give him a shot in my deck. I don't think I need more card draw though, and I think I like Tevesh over Bontu right now.

One notable omission is Momentous Fall. This card almost always seems great to me and being instant timing that isn't telegraphed is often important. With big enough creatures, it can be a pretty big swing.

Protection
Throw in Spike Weaver. I can't tell you how often this card wins me games or keeps me from being attacked, especially early. It is also a way to protect Walkers which Chasm can't.

Land Abuse
Field is a great card and one I would probably have in this deck if it wasn't so fricking expensive online.

Amulet of Vigor doesn't seem to be relevant often enough to warrant a spot. Sure, you have lands entering at different times, but proper sequencing can handle that. I have never viewed this deck as exceptionally explosive; it just keeps chugging along and having this card for the few times you might have a mass of lands enter tapped doesn't seem worth it.

Retreat and Geopede seem slow. 1 damage/life loss just isn't enough even with Scapeshift or World Shaper. I think there are better options.

Mayhem Devil is sort of in the middle for me. You have ways to trigger it, it can act as removal, and it triggers from opponents too. I can see its value but if I had to, I would say it doesn't quite do enough here.

Worm Harvest showed up in the game above and just wasn't enough. Granted, your list/playstyle might be different enough to warrant it and I can't say it is objectively bad.

See above on my response to pokken but I think I like Ancient Greenwarden as well; just not sure if the 6 mana is too much.I got this mixed up with Greenwarden of Murasa. I am not sure Ancient is needed. If you go more heavily into landfall abilities though, I could see this being reasonable.

Removal
I think your removal suite is decent. I might go with Bedevil in there somewhere as well and I might look at Abrupt Decay as one to cut. It is great in other formats, but that restriction is pretty, well, restrictive in EDH

I would say one more sweeper, at least, is warranted. I actually like Last One Standing but good old Damnation isn't bad.

Sac Outlet
Not much to say here. Maybe Yawgmoth, Thran Physician could end up here if you find you often have enough tokens to sac. And I would suggest Phyrexian Tower. Miren, the Moaning Well can really help gain some much needed life if you need it and Sylvan Safekeeper can be fantastic.

Tutor
Not much to say here. Maybe add in Protean Hulk if you want it or Chord of Calling? But the ones you have aren't bad.

Ramp
I don't generally feel like Artifact ramp in green decks is particularly good or needed. But, I again won't say it is bad. The rest of your ramp seems good. I do note the omission of Sakura-Tribe Elder though and I think that is worth it here.

Recursion
Again, seems fine. Not all are my cup of tea but nothing here is bad by any means.

Extra Drops
Lastly, I actually don't think these are all that necessary either, but they sure go with the deck pretty well. Nothing much to say here.

As to the rest of your comments, I think I mostly covered them above. I do think Evolution Sage is pretty good, but I would be curious on your experience with it as well. I like it because it really helps keep Windgrace going and can help a lot with getting value out of both Nissa's.

I know I didn't offer too many options for new cards but I figured this was enough to read through as it was. And I am still not sure where I want my deck to be right now anyway so it is tough to offer too much that isn't already in the first post or commented on in game summaries.
Last edited by WizardMN 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I always forget about the land-from-graveyard of Titania, Protector of Argoth - probably at least card neutral and fine to use, especially with the chucking lands of windgrace.

re: Worm Harvest I had it in Gitrog forever and my experience was the same as yours. I never really had a desire to cast it, despite it seeming fun I always had other stuff to do with my mana.

I am not really sure what the right way to win is with the deck if you're not really focusing on making big tokens with your land drops. I find those cards to be super boring, although Windgrace does give you a way to bin Anger which is nice.

Maybe just play Eye of Ugin and eldrazi, with your alternate wincon of Torment of Hailfire and Garruk Wildspeaker ultimates with utility bros? I have some dislikes for eldrazi but that was one of my favorite things to do with Gitrog for a while was play it like Mono G tron in Modern and just use the inevitability of Eye of Ugin to close games.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Yeah, that has been my problem so far too. Trying to come up with the right way to win that also isn't boring is sort of a conundrum. The deck I think *wants* to win via a bunch of tokens, but I don't. Maybe Eldrazi is right too but, damn, do I hate Annihilator and I don't see a good way to build that sort of deck without throwing in a bunch of those.

I am liking how the current build is playing. Specifically, I think I am sort of pushing it towards more true midrange. My main focus is keeping it somewhat distinct from Karador and the last game seemed like it was even though on paper they should be playing somewhat in the same space. With things like Korvold, Elder Gargaroth, Omnath, and Titania as beaters and the wraths and loops with wraths you mentioned, it has been sort of coming together. I realize this build isn't exactly maximizing Windgrace's potential, beyond allowing for bigger threats, but there is still a enough he enables, even if it is mostly via card draw.

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Post by blinx28 » 3 years ago

Thanks for all the feedback @WizardMN, incredibly kind to take a look section-by-section.

I will say the deck still looks a lot like Korvold, which used all the extra land droppers and sac stuff to abuse the steez out of him (i mean he would combo off drawing 20+ cards often and doming for commander damage), but as mentioned, the enabler+payoff+command zone access felt a bit too easy mode sometimes. The goal of overloading with pingers is to win in an unexpected way that's combo-adjacent...pinging everyone for 12-15 damage/life loss after a mass land recur feels like a hard-to-interact-with option.

I will take a lot of your notes to heart, and as I play this deck I will likely make cuts across a number of areas. Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools is actually a card i've pulled, so i guess it could slot in and is better balanced as an engine than the burst plays like Reprocess (esp when it can't slot itself into library like Bontu)...but because i'm leaning away from walkers and tokens im not sure ill always have something to feed it.....sage does get better the more walkers I add though. May add Nissa, Vital Force and shoot for a small walker package.

Spike Weaver keeps....spiking in cost but repeatable fogs are always a good option.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
3 years ago
I will take a lot of your notes to heart, and as I play this deck I will likely make cuts across a number of areas. Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools is actually a card i've pulled, so i guess it could slot in and is better balanced as an engine than the burst plays like Reprocess (esp when it can't slot itself into library like Bontu)...but because i'm leaning away from walkers and tokens im not sure ill always have something to feed it.....sage does get better the more walkers I add though. May add Nissa, Vital Force and shoot for a small walker package.
I have been moving away from Walkers as a strategy as well. I just have the 3 (plus Windgrace) which feels right. I actually got really close to cutting Nissa Vital Force but her Regrowth effect is likely too good and her ultimate is obviously on point for the deck. I don't think you would necessarily be wrong by not including them. But I wanted to cut her almost entirely by virtue of her being a Walker so I can understand your viewpoint there.

I do like Tevesh simply because I prefer steady card draw effects. Reprocess (and Lithoforming) is great for an explosive turn but I don't often find I am set up to have an explosive turn. So doing that just leads me to maybe casting a couple things anyway; not really worth the mass amount of cards those would draw.

That isn't to say your list can't do that but I think you would really need to do more with trying to get a lot of cards down if you are wanting to draw that many cards at a time.

And I get the point about Tevesh maybe not having fodder for his draw. It is one of the reasons I am not sold on Bontu. But at least Tevesh can fuel himself, even if it is a little slow. And we do still have some smaller creatures we don't mind sacrificing like our Elves or things like Skullwinder or E Wit. Even Greenwarden is good to sac as you get two cards and something out of the grave. But, there he is definitely on the line there. I have felt he is just over it, but you may feel he doesn't quite make it. For something like this, especially at 5 mana, he could really go either way. And I have only had him out a couple times so these instances may not be the norm anyway.

Spike Weaver has almost always been an all star in any deck I put it in. It might be a little higher in price, but it is just so good. Now, if we could only get a foil printing :)

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I played another game online and this time was against Reyhan, Last of the Abzan & Akroma, Vision of Ixidor partners, Ghalta, Primal Hunger, and Breeches, Brazen Plunderer & Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator partners.

I started off with a decent hand with a few lands and Lotus Cobra. I also had Putrefy and Bedevil for removal. The main issue was that my lands all produced green mana but I was banking off Cobra and drawing another colored source to let me cast Windgrace.

This actually worked out way better than it should have. My second turn I cast Cobra. I then played my third green source and gave myself some color. I tapped two lands and cast Harrow. This gave me 2 more mana from Cobra and two untapped lands so now I had just enough mana for Windgrace. So that is what I did. I didn't have any more lands in hand so I just pitched Worm Harvest and passed.

On a side note, this is why Harrow is far better than Roiling Regrowth since the lands don't enter tapped.

Next turn I drew Volrath's Stronghold, discarded it, and drew into another land which I played. Ghalta and Breeches/Malcolm were doing quite a bit during this time as well. And then Reyhan cast Carnage Tyrant and was able to get its power up high enough next turn to get Windgrace down to 1. I did block but didn't need to block with everything to save Windgrace.

Ghalta had Lurking Predators that I wanted to get rid of so I ended up doing that and then casting Damnation to clear out the board. At this time, things were looking decent, but I still didn't have much in hand. Just Putrefy and Bedevil still. Ghalta cast Polukranos, World Eater and then Reyhan/Akroma just got right back to flooding the board and were able to kill Windgrace.

I ended up casting Worm Harvest from the graveyard which stemmed the tide for a little while. Breeches/Malcolm then cast Thousand-Year Storm into Time Warp so they took 2 extra turns but didn't do a lot. This did cause Ghalta to scoop though.

They cast Malcolm and attached Curious Obsession to it. Then cast Siren Stormtamer and I didn't want the Storm player to have more cards so I blew up Malcolm before Stormtamer could resolve.

And then Reyhan/Akroma just cast Akroma and her Will to kill me and put Breeches/Malcolm down to 1. I am not even sure it was a bad play on my part since I knew they had Akroma but she wasn't going to do a lot with their board unless they cast something like Will.

Maybe not leaving up both removal spells was the issue? Worm Harvest actually seemed like a decent card there so I figured 1 removal was fine and then just deal with something else later. In reality, unless I drew another wrath though, I don't think I was going to be winning which might have been an argument for letting Breeches/Malcolm draw a card to see if they could deal with the board.

So, now that Work Harvest lost me a game, it definitely moves down a couple pegs :P

In all seriousness, I am still not sure on the card though. Sure, I got 10 tokens but they weren't going to win me the game; they were just there as blockers and even then weren't going to do a lot. This might be enough to show that even at one of the best showings for the card it isn't enough to close out games; just prolong them. I either need a real wrath (which does the same thing but better in terms of stalling) or something that can actually move to end the game.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Man Akroma's Will is so dang dope. I get there's a lot of setup involved but dang it's nice to have an explosive combat wincon like that in white :)

Worm Harvest is hot garbage man. A team of 1/1s is not enough to block with anymore. So many things completely invalidate them.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Man Akroma's Will is so dang dope. I get there's a lot of setup involved but dang it's nice to have an explosive combat wincon like that in white :)
I can't wait to try it out in Kykar. It is definitely a good card and Akroma just makes it even better.
Worm Harvest is hot garbage man. A team of 1/1s is not enough to block with anymore. So many things completely invalidate them.
Agreed. I just need to figure out what to put in its place. I don't want to do too much "throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks". Since the deck is still in sort of a transition period, I will try to make a fairly informed decision on what I want in this slot.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Have you got your current list somewhere? I feel like Skullwinder is an easy slot in if you're using a recursion land. One of the spells you already cast or milled has a high likelihood of being better than Worm Harvest.

Failing that I would consider adding more land theme stuff. Maybe something like Exploration or Wayward Swordtooth. Deck feels like it could use some exploration effects at 44+ lands.

Total side note: If you're not running Hissing Quagmire btw I can't recommend that enough. That card is fun in these decks.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Here is the current list I am running online:
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Lord Windgrace Testing

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Enchantments (2)

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And here are the cards I am thinking of as adds and cuts:
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I am not totally sold on the extra land drop cards but I added Exploration and Swordtooth to the list above. And even the cuts are definite; just the ones that stood out to me on a quick cursory glance.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Man that is quite a motley crew of creatures. I generally agree with all of your spell cuts which don't seem to belong in the deck. There're a few other critters I find iffy (ashaya, sylvan safekeeper) - mostly I think you shouldn't care if your dudes die. Just bring'em back or get more.

I'd consider just biting the bullet and trying Torment of Hailfire as well. I think it belongs in this deck if it belongs anywhere. It feels like it'd flow well in the play patterns of this shell.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Ashaya has been decent so far and I am liking her more than I thought I would. I do think she doesn't quite belong, but she does have some uses. Safekeeper was just one I used to run in Gitrog to great effect. It was never about the Shroud; it was just a great way to get lands in the yard. And it works with Titania and Gitrog here. At least, that is the idea.

Otherwise, I would agree that the creature suite is kind of a mishmash of a bunch of different things. I have been trying to avoid too much "creature to the battlefield" recursion so Skullwinder (and I am really thinking I like Greenwarden of Murasa more too even at that cost) make sense as ways to give this a different feel.

You might be right about something like Torment of Hailfire. I even bought one a long time ago thinking I would just slot it into a mono black deck somewhere but that never materialized because the deck was just "get lots of mana; X spell" but I don't think I really encounter that "problem" here.

I am starting to think that diving deeper into the land stuff makes sense. My mind set has thus far been that certain cards just don't work well for ramp or draw or whatever but if I lean more into Windgrace as a legitimate method of card draw, it is possible things like Journey of Discovery or Nylea's Intervention could make sense. Get the cards in hand and be able to play one and pitch one. Nissa's Triumph sort of fits into that but only gets me basic Forests without any sort of scaling.

And of course Exploration as you mentioned along with Swordtooth and maybe even Dryad of the Ilysian Grove and of course Azusa, Lost but Seeking. Which might lean me more into some of the cards above; somewhat cheap methods of getting lands in hand to then play.

Maybe something like The Mending of Dominaria could lean more heavily in the Land Matters thought. Something like Sylvan Awakening or Kamahl's Will could be a good finisher as well. The former is more easily able to get blown out with since they stay lands beyond the end of my turn whereas with Will they don't (not many instant speed "exile all creatures" exist).

I probably also want to go up a wrath at least. With what I am trying to do, I really need a way to reset and having only 3 is tough. Wave of Vitriol might come back. Yeah, it blows up lands, but only nonbasics and replaces them with basics so it isn't too bad.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

This is a deck where I would consider playing Decree of Pain since it works as a curve topper and a situational early uncounterable kill small dudes effect.

Nylea's Intervention was insane every time I've played it. Really really good. I kinda like the turn your lands into bros effects.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Hmm, that might not be a bad idea. I am willing to give it a try anyway. And I think I will try Nylea's intervention.

I just tried a game online (solo) with most of the changes we have been talking about and I ended the game with Lotus Cobra into Scapeshift into World Shaper to get a bunch of mana to cast Torment of Hailfire for 29. Definitely seemed pretty good.

I am going to try a few more tweaks and see how things work out solo for now but I am liking really digging deep into the lands aspect so I think the "turn them into creatures" plan might work out decently.

I am also pretty sure I am going to move away from the LD package for my lands and just make them color producing lands (probably make a couple Fabled Passage and Prismatic Vista to be honest since fetches work pretty well with things).

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I tried a few games online with a new list. I do have a couple questionable choices here. Namely Strands of Night. I took pokken's comment about recursion and decided maybe something like this could be decent.

For the games below, here is the list I was trying:
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And here are the games I played:
Game 1
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The first game was against Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist & Kamahl, Heart of Krosa partners, Nikya of the Old Ways, and Sigarda, Heron's Grace.

I started off with 5 lands but no green. I decided to try my luck and just cycle Barren Moor which worked out and I got my green mana. I also drew an Azusa, Lost but Seeking which let me get to 5 mana on turn 3. Someone Path'ed it which worked out great since I had no lands in hand. Next turn I cast Wayward Swordtooth but didn't have another land to play. I just ended up casting Harrow which got me to 8 permanents on the field for The City's Blessing.

Next turn I drew a land and then cast Windgrace. I decided to spin the wheel again and just pitch the land to see what I would get. And I got a land and a Lotus Cobra so I played both and passed the turn, now with blockers to protect Windgrace.

Not much happened from Ardenn/Kamahl though they did get down a Delaying Shield. Nikya on the other hand had a Lurking Predators with a pretty substantial board state as it was. But they couldn't quite attack Windgrace yet. On Sigarda's turn, they cast a spell to give them a End-Raze Forerunners which Sigarda Path'ed. Which then gave them a 12/12 Realm Seekers.

On my turn I cast Reclamation Sage to blow up the Predators. Luckily they whiffed on this trigger. It got back to them so they attacked with the Realm Seekers and I just blocked with the Sage. I had Strands of Night out at this time as well.

However, they cast Shaman of Forgotten Ways which I was actually fine with since I had Rakdos Charm in hand if I needed to just end the game. And I had a Fertilid in the graveyard I could have gotten back with Strands to ensure I was at 4 life when the ability resolved, but only 3 creatured for Charm.

Sigarda took it out though. At the time, Windgrace was at 11 counters so I don't know if that was right, but they weren't going to be able to attack into Windgrace and tick him down at all. So Windgrace was going off and I probably would have destroyed the Shaman anyway (no sense in risking anything). Nikya was not a fan of them going after their Shaman with Windgrace about to ultimate so they scooped. And then after Windgrace did go off, which did most of the damage to Sigarda, Sigarda scooped too.

Now it was just me and the partners but I had 12 unblockable damage on the field. So, I attacked them, they attacked me with a lifelink flyer, and then I attacked them to get them to 26 or so and then I fired off a Torment of Hailfire for X=17 which finished them off since they had no cards in hand and only 5 permanents on the field.
Game 2
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This game was against Saskia the Unyielding, Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero, and Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper & Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith partners.

I started with 3 lands and a Fertilid and drew into a couple more lands. Nothing substantial to start with but I figured I could make it work. Partners started off with an Infect creature so it seemed like they may be playing Infect. They swung at me first which was probably fine. Saskia and I were probably about even at the time.

But then Saskia ended up casting Molten Primordial to steal some creatures and then attacking me with the Primordial and Partners with their Infect creature. Unfortunately, they couldn't sac the Rock equipment attached to their Infect creature but either way it was 2 Poison counters to the person they attacked.

Next turn I drew a land (up to 7 at this point) and then cast The Gitrog Monster. I really just wanted a deterrent for anyone attacking me; I was hoping not to actually have to block. Especially since I had Nylea's Intervention and Korvold, Fae-Cursed King in hand so I could use those to get some cards and ramp a little.

But then Saskia cast Saskia and then equipped her with Hero's Blade and made her bigger with Kessig Wolf Run. Luckily they named Partners (probably because of Infect) and just killed them in one shot with Saskia and Primordial thanks to Saskia's trigger.

So, now we have Saskia as the threat. I started my turn, sacrificed a land to Gitrog and drew into a fetch land. Cracked it and drew into Glacial Chasm. So, I decided to just go with that. I cast Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, sacrificed another land and then played Chasm and sacrificed a land. I was now protected against damage but was down to just 7 lands. Which was fine since I had both World Shaper and Splendid Reclamation in hand.

And it turns out this was enough of a threat so Saskia just cast Decree of Pain to wrath the board. I didn't really want to lose Korvold and Gitrog, but that was fine as I could just get one of them back with Skullwinder. The wrath ended up working quite well for Gerrard as they just sacrificed a bunch of artifacts and then got them back when he died. Not a bad play on their part.

It is important to note that the reason Saskia could do all of this was because they had Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth so we were somewhat behind in the mana production. They were also really going into the mana with Seedborn Muse which we didn't have an answer to quite yet.

My next turn, I just cast Skullwinder to get back Ob Nixilis, the Fallen and gave Gerrard back an Artifact. I then cast World Shaper to try to set up for next turn. I didn't have a sac outlet at the time but I did have Nylea's Intervention to get to one. So, if everything worked right, I had just enough mana to tutor for 1 land and cast Ob Nixilis.

On Saskia's turn, they cast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and it had haste thanks to Samut, the Tested. Then they cast Realm Razer which wasn't the worst thing except now I had nothing to do. They didn't attack me, though they could have killed me if they did, so now I just had World Shaper without a way to get my lands back. And I had no removal for the Realm Razer to get things back that way either. I had to basically hope Gerrard had an option.

And they came through in spades. They had just enough mana with their rocks to cast Day of Judgment. This got me all my lands back plus the ones in my yard.

On my next turn, I cast Intervention for 3 lands, Windgrace, and Ob Nixilis. Saskia then copied my Ob Nixilis and got a bunch of lands out and started really putting my life total low. I was at 24 life when the turn started, and they were able to get me down to 15. They then cast Saskia and named me. They attacked Gerrard with both Ob and Saskia but Chasm saved me here so I was still alive at 15 (I really thought they were going to get me lower with Ob).

Gerrard started their turn and didn't do a lot. So, I got to my turn and got a few Ob triggers and then floated a bunch of mana for Scapeshift. And then cast Scapeshift to sac 13 or so lands (it is tough to tell what is selected and what isn't). This caused Saskia to scoop and I was able to just point everything at Gerrard. It actually wasn't enough to kill them both but Reclamation would have been enough to get all my lands back and finish the job.
Game 3
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The next game was against Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar and Ulrich of the Krallenhorde // Ulrich, Uncontested Alpha. The fourth player scooped right away. They were playing Kenrith, the Returned King so they could have been doing basically anything.

I started with a lot of lands again and Life from the Loam. I cracked a fetch and cycled Barren Moor and then got them both back next turn (discarding Bazaar of Baghdad to hand size).

Multani just spit out there hand but didn't have a lot else. They were down to 0 cards in hand, 6 lands and an Exploration. They cast Multani next turn and then swung at me first the following turn. I blew him up with Bedevil to save me a little damage. It might have been premature but Multani can get out of control and I had Skullwinder to get Bedevil back.

Turns out I drew into Eternal Witness next turn as well so I just picked up Bedevil and sat on that for a while which worked as a deterrent for both players, I also had Toxic Deluge in my back pocket and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger once I got to enough mana (which Life from the Loam would help with).

Ulrich then spent the next turn just going off so I had to wrath. Toxic Deluge for 12 was a pretty bit hit but I wanted to get everything and didn't want to get "got" by some shenanigans from Multani when their Multani was on 10 toughness.

They just let Multani die and then picked him up and recast him. With Exploration out, that is a decent way around the Commander Tax. They passed and Ulrich was left with a Young Wolf from the Deluge. Guardian Project was doing a good job of keeping their hand full.

They cast Ulrich and a few other things and then passed. I cast Windgrace and passed (digging for a wrath) and left up Bedevil. I also hoped Windgrace would be a meat shield for me. Multani ended up casting Dosan the Falling Leaf so I had to spend Bedevil on Multani so they just picked him back up and recast him.

Ulrich got to their turn and were able to just swing at Windgrace. Xenagos for sure helped with getting even more damage in so they could hold back blockers for Multani. I started my turn and didn't have quite enough to do much so I just cast Skullwinder to get back Deluge and paid another 11 life to wrath the board. I then cast Lotus Cobra and passed the turn.

Multani and Ulrich just committed to the board but couldn't do a lot because of each other. On my next turn I almost had enough mana for Apex Devastator (if I drew a land) but I didn't so I just cast Cultivate into Sylvan Awakening to give me some blockers to hopefully protect me until next turn. Which they did. So, I started my turn, drew a land and cast Devastator. This was on an empty board (except Cobra) so I hoped it would end up being decent.

I Cascaded into Assassin's Trophy to blow up Ulrich's Guardian Project but they "countered" it with Veil of Summer, I then got Spike Weaver, The Gitrog Monster, and Bane of Progress. Ulrich blew up Spike Weaver and I accidentally passed priority on everything so I couldn't activate it first. Then they cast Blasphemous Act to kill everything and attacked Multani.

I got Nissa next turn and wanted to get back Spike Weaver, but Multani had Scavenger Grounds so that probably wasn't going to happen. But I forgot Nissa didn't target and I was so focused on thinking Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger in hand that I didn't realize I got to choose the creature on resolution. So I could have picked up Weaver since they didn't crack Grounds in response.

Oh well. It was actually one of the more fun games I have played with this deck and everything worked out reasonably well. I liked Devastator being able to really get me into something and it worked out so well (until the board was wrathed) and it was just due to a misplay/misunderstanding of the card that I missed a way to at least stall a little longer and then I could have cast Ulamog or just gotten Devastator back with Volrath's Stronghold and tried it again.
Torment and Ob Nixilis really came through. I wish I was better equipped to deal with the Realm Razer in game 2 as that was pretty devastating. But, that is a card that doesn't see a lot of play as it is so it shouldn't come up often.

From the first game, I really noticed that Azusa and Swordtooth weren't that great. Sure, Azusa ramped me but then I had no use for her after that so the Path was probably the best thing that could have happened. And Swordtooth was hit with a Kenrith's Transformation pretty early so it never did anythnig besides block either. At least Swordtooth makes for a decent blocker but his ramp ability never came into play.

Strands was also not really that great. Now, to be fair to the card, I never got any of my big hitters. I had Rec Sage, Fertilid, and Yavimaya Elder so nothing that made a lot of sense to try to reanimate.

I know Devastator isn't exactly the perfect card for this deck, but man was it fun to get it off and see what it could do. Yeah, its not a wrath (but it could have ended up being anything; it could have even been a wrath!! :P ) but it still has some good uses to try to do something. With the removal of the spot removal as well, it is has a higher chance of getting real hits. Granted, it has the chance for some pretty bad hits too but that is the nature of Cascade. Especially in EDH.

Overall, I am really enjoying this version of the build. One big thing to note is that I removed Nissa, Vital Force (Tevesh Szat should probably be removed too) and I went a little heavier on the "regrowth" effects. Once and Future in particular isn't all that bad. Instant timing and can return two things to hand or even stack something on top for Cascade if needed can be pretty decent.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Apex Altisaur is something you might want to consider as a creature recurrable wrath. Feels good in this deck. Being able to functionally end the game for creatures once you hit Volrath's Stronghold + Apex Altisaur is pretty good.

I don't like Strands of Night in this deck at all given all the good options you have for putting it on dudes or planeswalkers that are more impactful. Going down lands is not where you want to be most of the time.

I think you might be right that you don't need much extra land ramp in this deck; maybe just play the really good ones like Exploration. Your commander being functionally similar to crucible means you don't benefit *that* much from the extra land drops + crucible effect strategy, and you're not really incentivized to play crucibles.

I still really like Exploration and possibly Burgeoning and maybe even Sakura-Tribe Scout in this deck because of them enabling you to get to Windgrace mana. But Azusa, Lost but Seeking is only going to get you to Windgrace early if you happen to have 5 lands or some other effect, whereas the 1 CMC effects help you bridge to an earlier 3 CMC effect (e.g. Cultivate which is glorious in this deck due to its synergy with lands to hand for Windgrace).

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Apex Altisaur is something you might want to consider as a creature recurrable wrath. Feels good in this deck. Being able to functionally end the game for creatures once you hit Volrath's Stronghold + Apex Altisaur is pretty good.

I don't like Strands of Night in this deck at all given all the good options you have for putting it on dudes or planeswalkers that are more impactful. Going down lands is not where you want to be most of the time
You are for sure right on Strands of Nights. I wanted to give it a try since sacrificing lands isn't all that detrimental to this deck with Windgrace, Gitrog, and Titania. But it never really did anything and I even pitched it early in the third game. Even if I had cast it, Bane would have blown it up anyway.

I think I will give the Altisaur a chance as well. 9 mana is just such a high number and for 1 mana more, I get Devastator who can do tons of things. But, I could also get Altisaur off Devastator which is pretty nice. I don't want my curve to be exceptionally high but a couple at the top end isn't bad if I am going to go all in on the lands package. And the interaction with Stronghold is pretty good too.
I think you might be right that you don't need much extra land ramp in this deck; maybe just play the really good ones like Exploration. Your commander being functionally similar to crucible means you don't benefit *that* much from the extra land drops + crucible effect strategy, and you're not really incentivized to play crucibles.

I still really like Exploration and possibly Burgeoning and maybe even Sakura-Tribe Scout in this deck because of them enabling you to get to Windgrace mana. But Azusa, Lost but Seeking is only going to get you to Windgrace early if you happen to have 5 lands or some other effect, whereas the 1 CMC effects help you bridge to an earlier 3 CMC effect (e.g. Cultivate which is glorious in this deck due to its synergy with lands to hand for Windgrace).
That is probably where I am leaning too. This deck seems to be in sort of a weird position with cards like that. That is, I play a ton of lands, but I am often pitching them more often than playing them. Yeah, it is nice to get the extra land drops but there have been situations where I will pitch my only land drop for the turn and try to get another land and a card so it isn't often I just want to flood the board with lands. I still want some in hand so I can either get to my bigger stuff or just fuel things like World Shaper.

Your comment about Windgrace basically being a Crucible effect is sort of where I am at too. I alluded to it earlier when actually cutting Crucible and I think it is very true; I don't really care that much about trying to play the cards I discard. I kept Ramunap Excavator as a way to sort of be cautious in that direction, but I don't think even that is necessary.

Sure, it can be nice and it works well with the idea of the deck but in practice it doesn't often do enough to warrant the slot. As you said, past a certain point, it doesn't do what I want anyway. Exploration being early is good. I would rather stay away from Burgeoning as I have never had much luck with that card.

I kind of forgot about Tribe Scout and I could see that being decent here as well. Like you said, it is more about ramping to Windgrace than it is about ramping in general. Once I get to him, I can utilize him in a number of ways depending on what is needed in the game.

Speaking of Cultivate, I don't really know why I am not running Kodama's Reach at least. Nissa's Pilgrimage could be argued too since I have a lot of basic forests, but it doesn't do as well to fix mana. I might try to slot the following in and see where they get me:

Apex Altisaur
Sakura-Tribe Scout
Kodama's Reach

The following probably make sense to cut for now:

Azusa
Wayward Swordtooth
Strands of Night

There are still other cards that could be considered "flex slots" like Deliver Unto Evil (I might have more recursion than I need already and this is "random" to an extent) Tevesh Szat but I want to wait before I definitely cut him. I just like his effect.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I almost always play all three of those in a green heavy deck with 5 cmc + commander. They're just so...smooth? A game where you Cultivate on turn 2 off a Exploration / Birds of Paradise / Sakura-Tribe Scout is going to be a great game.

If you don't like burgeoning, you may also like Skyshroud Ranger - I prefer scout since it can instant speed in a chasm or maze, but ranger is almost as good.

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