Varina, Esper Zombie

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pzbw7z
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Pzbw7z's Esper Zombies

Commander (1)

Planeswalkers (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

Card Choices: Creatures
One Drops
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  • Carrion Feeder This guy is a rock star. Sacrificing is the name of the game.
  • Champion of the Perished This guy is okay. He does scare people and often draws removal but his potential size isn't really part of the game plan. It can be fun to accumulate hundreds of counters just for giggles, but he's actually one of the least important one drops.
  • Changeling Outcast The ability to trigger Varina without fear is a solid plus for this guy. He's a Knight in addition to a Zombie, so synergy with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge as well as all of the Zombie-related abilities makes this guy very solid.
  • Cryptbreaker This guy is a superstar, easily one of the best Zombies in any weight class.
  • Foulmire Knight Mostly this guy is a Knight as well as a Zombie, which is probably enough to be considered solid. Deathtouch is often relevant and the possibility of drawing a card even if at a slightly high mana cost is a bonus.
  • Gravecrawler This guy needs no justification. If anything, he's too good for casual. If he is, it's tough, he's staying in the list. :)
  • Putrid Imp The discard ability can trigger Lazotep Chancellor and together they can do tricks with Ashnod's Altar. Mostly, It's decent one drop.
  • Shambling Ghast His ability to combo with Liliana, Untouched by Death is more than enough to secure his spot in the list.
  • Universal Automaton He's a Knight and a Zombie, which alone is good enough. He also can be cast with colorless, which allows him to combo with Ashnod's Altar as well as Phyrexian Altar. That bumps his stock up even higher.
Two Drops
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  • Binding Mummy This guy is neat. He makes Varina's Zombie ability a very useful defensive feature. Tapping a fattie on its controller's turn is priceless.
  • Corpse Knight This guy is probably the best card in this deck. It's win-con #1. Buried Alive gets all of the combo pieces except the Altar. Without Haakon, this guy is not number one, but Haakon makes this guy so very good.
  • Lazotep Chancellor This guy looks good on paper, but he hasn't done anything for me yet. He's only a two drop with a potential upside, so he probably stays for now.
  • Lazotep Reaver This card always makes two bodies which is very good for multiple reasons, not least of which is it means two EtB triggers.
  • Razorlash Transmogrant We can usually recur this guy at BB, which is very handy as we want to cast creatures. This is good enough for a spot. Moreover, he is also easy on the mana when cast from hand and, in theory, can be looped with Ashnod's Altar with an assist from Liliana, Untouched by Death.
  • Relentless Dead This guy can do stuff. I've used him to recur Fleshbag Marauder before which can provide effective board control. With enough mana and a sac outlet, he allows any EtB to be abused. In practice, it doesn't work out terribly often, but he's still only two to cast and Menace sometimes helps getting risk free Varina triggers. He's good enough for a spot.
  • Shepherd of Rot This guy can win games. With Varina's lifegain, Ol Shep' can do work.
  • Wayward Servant Rock star. He'd be the best card in the deck if Haakon didn't tip the scales in favor of Corpse Knight, but this guy is a hero!
  • Undead Augur Another star player. Cards are what it's all about.
Three-Plus Drops
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Three Drops:
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Five Drops:
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This is the new, try-hard experimental list.
Varina Tries Harder

Commander

Planeswalkers

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Bits from the original post
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Who knew there were other threads! - I guess I should have looked. :)

Massacre is too expensive to include without more consideration. It seems like a very good card, though.

I'm a little worried about having W on turn one, so Land Tax may not stick for me.


More updates as posted below.
Last edited by pzbw7z 5 days ago, edited 87 times in total.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Some tweaks were made in the OP.

Some things I'd love to include but may or will not due to cost.
I used to play Rhystic Study, and I found it annoyed people so much that I'm not sure I'd play it if I still had it. Unholy Grotto looks like a good choice; it will probably get the go-ahead. Phyrexian Tower also looks solid.

Some other things in the maybe-board:
    Plumb the Forbidden
    Sidisi, Undead Vizier
    Zombie Master
    Swan Song
  • Prized Amalgam
I'd probably just plug Sidisi in if I had one and Zombie Master looks very probable. Swan Song will have to convince me it's better than something already in the list.
Last edited by pzbw7z 2 months ago, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

There seem to be some noteworthy zombies in Innistrad: Crimson Vow! I particularly like Graf Reaver.

WWolfe
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Post by WWolfe » 2 years ago

Look to see another Varina player! Before I delve too deep into advice, are you looking more for Aristocrats type win or reanimation or what? Also, what kind of budget are you looking at cards with? (I know you mentioned The Meathook Massacre being pricey and yikes it is)

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

WWolfe wrote:
2 years ago
Look to see another Varina player! Before I delve too deep into advice, are you looking more for Aristocrats type win or reanimation or what? Also, what kind of budget are you looking at cards with? (I know you mentioned The Meathook Massacre being pricey and yikes it is)
I'm not married to any line of play yet but I'm not interested in getting anything that I can't trade for. I'm considering Tombstone Stairwell. I think Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is a good fit, but I'm not sure he is enough value for the price. Still, I might be able to get one. Unholy Grotto seems like a shoe-in for the archetype.

There are many others on the maybe-board list.

While I currently have a few game-ending combo possibilities, that's not how I really want to roll, it's just an easy way to have a chance at competing with the cool kids.

What I'd like to do is overwhelm the other players with a ridiculous hoard of Zombies.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Headless Rider seems to be a good card to include.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Updates:

IN: OUT: I plan to find room for Graf Reaver and Headless Rider when I get the time and inclination. Demonic Tutor will also get a slot, possibly as a replacement for Enlightened Tutor. Other changes are likely; in particular I want to get the creature count up a little.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Generous Gift seems to be better than Mortify. I shall probably make this change even though I have extra copies of Mortify; Gift shouldn't be too expensive.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Swapping Tectonic Edge in for Field of Ruin because I read the frickin' card! :) Also, I don't want to bother with switching my lone copy of Strip Mine back and forth between decks.

It's interesting that Tec. Edge works if "an opponent" has four or more lands, not the controller of the target land.

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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Hey come join us in the main Varina midrange thread! viewtopic.php?f=35&t=333&start=1650
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My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Hey come join us in the main Varina midrange thread! viewtopic.php?f=35&t=333&start=1650
Thanks! I have been reading it since I found it. There are decks spread out all through it. Perhaps I'll put a link to mine there.


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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

After a few last tweaks to the list, the cards were sleeved this afternoon. Maybe they'll get a try out this Thursday.

Well, maybe Friday. :(

Swapped a few more cards to eliminate most of the proxying. Some of these changes will surely be temporary.


Only Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is left in proxy status. I will switch it out of Prosper when I play unless I can pick up another copy. There's good reason to believe I can. I just rounded up another batch of trade goods so I should be able to pick up Urborg, Flooded Strand and maybe Land Tax. The Mana Confluence-Prismatic Vista swap may be permanent.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Varina's debutante was not entirely smooth. She seemed to struggle getting going for some reason, with many mulligans and really no fast starts. I'll wait until I get some more games in to start drawing conclusions. Notwithstanding, I do think Entomb is needed. I might try Masoleum Secrets first due to cost and since Gravecrawler would likely be the target in many cases. With the board state described below, being able to go get 'Crawler would have been GG.

In the last game she did put together a pretty good board state including Gisa and Geralf, Rooftop Storm, Carrion Feeder, Plague Belcher and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. She might have still lost without a timely overloaded Cyclonic Rift as Karametra, God of Harvests had a very robust board state and Nethroi, Apex of Death had a combo about to go off.

The list has some compromises due to availability of cards and my stubbornness about proxying but the evening ended on a good note so I'm pleased.

The current list is maintained in the original post.

Unholy Grotto and Crypt of Agadeem are en route. Grotto will likely replace Field of the Dead and Crypt will likely replace Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. Neither Field nor Nykthos felt good tonight although both could probably be pretty decent under the right circumstances. Colorless-only producers need to be minimized and Nykthos feels really bad early. Crypt CIPT but you can't win them all. I think it's worth a try.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

The list looks nice! And btw, I totally get the proxy thing. Its why I've only got the one fetch in my list, I just can't do it.

Thought I'd see what you're rolling with and I think I can probably see some things in your list you may not need moving forward. Phyrexian Arena i think is WAY too slow to justify here and I don't think you'll miss it at all. As a plus trading it us pretty lucrative right now, so there's that.

I'd say you're probably a bit heavier than you need to be on removal too - I'd probably pick the 2 weakest spot removals and mass wipes and pluck em out to free up some slots. As well as that I've actually been really happy without talismans in my list. I think if you have them stuff like Moxen or Crypt could justify a slot, but otherwise you could just as easily throw Mystic Remora or Rhystic Study in those slots and compensate for early rocks with early cards in hand. It never feels bad to me, and if you're worried about the nagging thing I usually just tell people 'let me know if you DO pay, otherwise I'll save us both the grief and draw'. It works quite nicely and people tend to really appreciate it.

I'm honestly pretty surprised to see Land Tax go. Its such a great card for me i wouldn't ever conceive of losing it. I am more basic heavy than you but not by a ton. The last couple of games I've dropped it in early and been starting my turn cycle with 10 cards in hand and that feels amazing. You sculpt your hand, sculpt your lands, sculpt your graveyard and party. And if it drops late game and you don't need it, turf it abd exile with Varina to put a body in play.

Hope this helps, I know I've not made more suggestions to cover the cuts I've suggested, but at the least this should give you some space to try out Ashiok if needed. I think there's a good chance it could be a great inclusion.

Food for thought anyway, with only one game night with the deck active you should totally just pkay around with the list for now and see what works and doesn't.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I think a few things are going to be affecting your smoothness of gameplay--since your creature curve is fairly close to mine I think I have a lot to say :)

1. I definitely think you want to get a few ways to find land #4 in there. Right now you're pretty reliant on Varina.
Land Tax was discussed and I know it's on your list, but Tithe Gift of Estates may be worth considering. I think there might be some etb-raw zombies out there? Not sure about that.

2. Sequencing and the glut at 3 cmc

Remember the sequencing of turn 2 signet, turn 3 3-drop with an extra mana that goes to waste, turn 4 varina is one of the most awkward draws in the deck. You'd almost always rather turn 2 zombie or turn 2 card draw spell, then turn 3 zombie and hit your land drops, most of the time.

I think you probably need to shave some 3 cmc zombies and either replace them with a mix of higher CMC zombies, draw spells, and lower curve zombies. That huge glut at 3 reduces your opportunity to multi-spell with zombies (even later in the game).

I think I counted 15 3-drop zombies?

3. I think Buried Alive is likely to outperform the other 3 cmc tutors most of the time

mainly problematic in that it can't fix land drops, but the upside is pretty huge over Grim Tutor

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
The list looks nice!
Thank you!
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Phyrexian Arena i think is WAY too slow to justify here
I could see replacing it with a one-time draw effect.
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
I'd say you're probably a bit heavier than you need to be on removal too
Perhaps, time will tell. I do think I want to change the mix - even though I at times am already annoyed at the number of changes I've made! I quite like Cleansing Nova and Winds of Abandon. I really like the BW removal suite, in that many cards hit multiple permanent types.

Last night, I found I frequently lost my removal to looting and or Epiphany at the Drownyard.
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
As well as that I've actually been really happy without talismans in my list. I think if you have them stuff like Moxen or Crypt could justify a slot, but otherwise you could just as easily throw Mystic Remora or Rhystic Study in those slots and compensate for early rocks with early cards in hand.
More cards is definitely on my mind after last night. I don't know yet if I want enchantments that can draw cards over time or one-shots or a mix. I really wish I still had my copy of Fact or Fiction - no idea where it got to. Another should be easy enough to round up.
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
I'm honestly pretty surprised to see Land Tax go.
I could have picked one up last night; it was just mostly eagerness to get started. I traded for an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and got started. I think I'll try to get Land Tax before anyone else can scold me about it. :)
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
try out Ashiok if needed. I think there's a good chance it could be a great inclusion.
One of the kids at one of the shops relies on a Reveillark combo. There may be better ways of disrupting it, but Ashiok's static ability is very powerful. Probably too powerful for casual play, if you know what I mean.
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Food for thought anyway, with only one game night with the deck active you should totally just pkay around with the list for now and see what works and doesn't.
My thoughts exactly. Thanks a bunch for taking the time to craft such a detailed and thoughtful reply!

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I think a few things are going to be affecting your smoothness of gameplay--since your creature curve is fairly close to mine I think I have a lot to say :)

1. I definitely think you want to get a few ways to find land #4 in there. Right now you're pretty reliant on Varina.
Land Tax was discussed and I know it's on your list, but Tithe Gift of Estates may be worth considering. I think there might be some etb-raw zombies out there? Not sure about that.
This was the biggest issue I noticed, well, except drawing crappy hands - I'm not sure what to do about that. :) I'm unsure at this point whether to add land tutors or card draw.
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
2. Sequencing and the glut at 3 cmc

Remember the sequencing of turn 2 signet, turn 3 3-drop with an extra mana that goes to waste, turn 4 varina is one of the most awkward draws in the deck. You'd almost always rather turn 2 zombie or turn 2 card draw spell, then turn 3 zombie and hit your land drops, most of the time.

I think you probably need to shave some 3 cmc zombies and either replace them with a mix of higher CMC zombies, draw spells, and lower curve zombies. That huge glut at 3 reduces your opportunity to multi-spell with zombies (even later in the game).

I think I counted 15 3-drop zombies?
Yup, 15. I don't want to reduce the creature count but I agree that the curve is a bit out of whack. I like all of the 3-CMC guys, but I shall give this matter some attention. Why can't there be a Zombie Steve or a Zombie E-Wit or even a Zombie Elvish Visionary ?
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
3. I think Buried Alive is likely to outperform the other 3 cmc tutors most of the time

mainly problematic in that it can't fix land drops, but the upside is pretty huge over Grim Tutor
The deck needs either Entomb or Mausoleum Secrets or Buried Alive - maybe more than one of them. But I think it also needs to find non-creatures. The two tutors I have are sub-optimal, there's no doubt. I may switch one of them with Prosper's Demonic Tutor. Prosper rarely has mana issues.

Many thanks for the reply; these are three excellent points to consider.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
Yup, 15. I don't want to reduce the creature count but I agree that the curve is a bit out of whack. I like all of the 3-CMC guys, but I shall give this matter some attention. Why can't there be a Zombie Steve or a Zombie E-Wit or even a Zombie Elvish Visionary ?
I was pretty annoyed that Clattering Augur was a skeleton =P We definitely could use some more zombies at 2 cmc with smoothing effects.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I think a few things are going to be affecting your smoothness of gameplay--since your creature curve is fairly close to mine I think I have a lot to say :)

1. I definitely think you want to get a few ways to find land #4 in there. Right now you're pretty reliant on Varina.
Land Tax was discussed and I know it's on your list, but Tithe Gift of Estates may be worth considering. I think there might be some etb-raw zombies out there? Not sure about that.
I think there is a place for Twisted Abomination in many peoples' lists to solve that exact problem of finding land #4 to drop Varina and start churning. I think I would run it over gift of estates since you aren't dependent on other people and it gets a "swamp card" and it gives you a body in the GY.

I agree with everything you said about his curve and buried alive. I can't believe more people don't run buried alive in their lists - it is shocking to me actually lol. Insane value even if you just run Gravecrawler and Wonder as your main targets. Grab a game winning aristocrat fr the third slot so you can actually drain the table when you mass reanimate.
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I think there is a place for Twisted Abomination in many peoples' lists to solve that exact problem of finding land #4 to drop Varina and start churning. I think I would run it over gift of estates since you aren't dependent on other people and it gets a "swamp card" and it gives you a body in the GY.
Remember that Gift of Estates is +2 cards and can get up to 3 swamps depending on how your deck is built (Scrubland, Godless Shrine and Snowfield Sinkhole -- and in the future we'll almost surely get a triome, cycling land, or others). You only need one person to have more lands than you, so that happens organically on turn 3 if you aren't going first, so 75% of the time.

Abomination has some advantages for sure and it's worth thinking about - I like it personally and have definitely considered it.

Also agree on Buried Alive -- I'm definitely considering putting it in since the haakon combo is so compact with it, and doesn't require Varina to discard haakon.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I think there is a place for Twisted Abomination in many peoples' lists to solve that exact problem of finding land #4 to drop Varina and start churning. I think I would run it over gift of estates since you aren't dependent on other people and it gets a "swamp card" and it gives you a body in the GY.
Remember that Gift of Estates is +2 cards and can get up to 3 swamps depending on how your deck is built (Scrubland, Godless Shrine and Snowfield Sinkhole -- and in the future we'll almost surely get a triome, cycling land, or others). You only need one person to have more lands than you, so that happens organically on turn 3 if you aren't going first, so 75% of the time.

Abomination has some advantages for sure and it's worth thinking about - I like it personally and have definitely considered it.

Also agree on Buried Alive -- I'm definitely considering putting it in since the haakon combo is so compact with it, and doesn't require Varina to discard haakon.
I have had Land Tax do absolutely nothing for me far more than I have had it work out TBH so I think 75% success rate with a similar card is a little bit inflated. Land tax is worth it as a 1-drop because of its incredible upside. Beyond that I don't think having more such effects in the deck is worth it. Drawing do-nothing cards is never a good thing and these have a very good chance of being exactly that.

Sure though, if you have it in your opener and you didn't go first it can be great. Does it outweigh the times it does nothing? - personal choice. I think I would prefer The package of Tithe, Abomination, and Land tax for this sort of style. And even then, if you aren't struggling with fixing your colors, Tithe can just be another land most of the time.
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I have had Land Tax do absolutely nothing for me far more than I have had it work out TBH so I think 75% success rate with a similar card is a little bit inflated. Land tax is worth it as a 1-drop because of its incredible upside. Beyond that I don't think having more such effects in the deck is worth it. Drawing do-nothing cards is never a good thing and these have a very good chance of being exactly that.

Sure though, if you have it in your opener and you didn't go first it can be great. Does it outweigh the times it does nothing? - personal choice. I think I would prefer The package of Tithe, Abomination, and Land tax for this sort of style. And even then, if you aren't struggling with fixing your colors, Tithe can just be another land most of the time.
I mean, 75% chance of it drawing you 3 cards on cast on turn 2. And Gift isn't really a do nothing card later; it's often better than LT drawn late since you get +2 cards now and can chuck them to Varina worst case.

I 100% agree Tithe/landtax come first, but I'd play Gift if I needed another one of those effects because paying 2 to get 1 land and a zombie in the bin, is a lot worse than paying 2 to get 3 lands.

Are you really running into situations where on turn 6 or 7 no one has more lands than you? That feels weird.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

@plaganegra and @pokken

Thanks for the discussion! Twisted Abomination definitely fits in the budget. :)

Tithe is a card I'm actively considering and Land Tax is on my mind as well. I might get a chance to pick up Tax today; I know the shop had one last night. Gift of Estates has also been added to the maybe board.

How did I forget about Haakon! I was thinking almost exclusively of Gravecrawler as a target for those types of spells. The knights definitely increase the value of Buried Alive relative to the others.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Gift is a fine card but mostly a budget replacement for Tithe, that has some pretty good interactions with Varina (by using Varina's ability to turn any excess cards into new ones).

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