Varina, Esper Zombie

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pzbw7z
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Brainstorm and Ponder were last-minute changes to avoid proxying or card swapping. I'm wondering if Serum Visions may be better than Ponder, at least early game. Am I wrong?

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
I'm wondering if Serum Visions may be better than Ponder, at least early game. Am I wrong?
definitely wrong, ponder gets you a land now :) Ponder good.

Serum outperforms brainstorm in low fetch builds tho

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I have had Land Tax do absolutely nothing for me far more than I have had it work out TBH so I think 75% success rate with a similar card is a little bit inflated. Land tax is worth it as a 1-drop because of its incredible upside. Beyond that I don't think having more such effects in the deck is worth it. Drawing do-nothing cards is never a good thing and these have a very good chance of being exactly that.

Sure though, if you have it in your opener and you didn't go first it can be great. Does it outweigh the times it does nothing? - personal choice. I think I would prefer The package of Tithe, Abomination, and Land tax for this sort of style. And even then, if you aren't struggling with fixing your colors, Tithe can just be another land most of the time.
I mean, 75% chance of it drawing you 3 cards on cast on turn 2. And Gift isn't really a do nothing card later; it's often better than LT drawn late since you get +2 cards now and can chuck them to Varina worst case.

I 100% agree Tithe/landtax come first, but I'd play Gift if I needed another one of those effects because paying 2 to get 1 land and a zombie in the bin, is a lot worse than paying 2 to get 3 lands.

Are you really running into situations where on turn 6 or 7 no one has more lands than you? That feels weird.
Honestly yes I am lol. I usually hit every single land drop. So if someone isn't playing green I almost always have the most lands in my games I play. I also use Sevinne's rec aggressively to ramp myself most of the times I draw it. Other players not playing green usually have a hard time hitting land drops that consistently and with Varina I almost never do. This leads me to understand that the solution is not in cards like Gift, it is in optimizing the deck's ability to cast enough zombies to maximize varina's effect. You should never have to rely on a card like Gift to hit your land drops - that is a symptom of other problems.

I really believe Gift of Estates is just bad in the deck. It also competes with your 2-drops the same way signets do so it goes completely against everything you have said on that front. Tithe and Tax do not have this problem.

In fact, a signet is probably much better than gift is in this deck lol. Will always do what you need.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
In fact, a signet is probably much better than gift is in this deck lol. Will always do what you need.
Except hit your land drop *and* give you 2 extra cards to chuck to Varina :)

But if you're regularly ahead on lands that's unique and you've got to trust your experience.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
In fact, a signet is probably much better than gift is in this deck lol. Will always do what you need.
Except hit your land drop *and* give you 2 extra cards to chuck to Varina :)

But if you're regularly ahead on lands that's unique and you've got to trust your experience.
Haha hard to tell but that is tongue in cheek. Emphasizes your points about signets (which I think are extremely valid) in which gift is outclassed at every angle because of its potential to do *absolutely nothing* and it being in the *2cmc* ramp/fixing slot where you should be playing a zombie. It only takes one time where you go first (or are otherwise on par with lands) and need that mana source with gift of estates staring back at you like a troll meme -- to realize that it is not the card you thought it was. I have the same exact feelings about coffers in the deck... But coffers has so much upside that makes it a lot easier to justify.

I mean put simply:

A card that has a 25% chance to do absolutely nothing is bad lol. And that is a way oversimplification and probably the floor for how bad it can be...

If you only look at the ceiling of cards, it is like deckbuilding with rose-tinted glasses on. Everything looks peachy!

For comparison, Coffers has a much higher chance to do absolutely nothing, but you can build around it to minimize that. Aside from packing all the fetches, you can't build around gift of estates nor should you!
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
A card that has a 25% chance to do absolutely nothing is bad lol. And that is a way oversimplification and probably the floor for how bad it can be...
A signet has way more than 25% chance to do nothing though :) If you draw one on turn 6 it's basically dead, whereas Gift can give you 3 cards to chuck to Varina and dig quite a bit deeper.

*without* fetches your odds of playing Gift on curve and drawing 3 cards for 2 is around 75%; with fetches your chances should be closer to like 90-ish%. The first card that springs to mind that I would play in that slot is Night's Whisper and drawing 2 is good, but guaranteeing you hit your land drops is a lot different than drawing 2 cards.

I've played a *lot* of Gift of Estates and in non-green decks it's pretty infrequent that it's a dud, and if it's a dud a signet usually is too.

I would play it before Arcane Signet daily nightly and ever so rightly personally - I play neither (but that's because I have Land Tax, Tithe Sensei's Divining Top Ponder Weathered Wayfarer and Brainstorm doing those things.

Late game, 2 mana draw 3 is spectacular with Varina and late game signet is hot garbage.

However, my experience is tempered by my nearly 100% chance of having an opponent playing Skyshroud Claim.dec :P There is just *so much green out there*.

I should say if I were in a meta where Varina regularly was ahead on lands (which is hard for me to fathom but like I said, trust your experience) - I would probably play Night's Whisper or maybe even Remand or Impulse

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
A signet has way more than 25% chance to do nothing though :) If you draw one on turn 6 it's basically dead, whereas Gift can give you 3 cards to chuck to Varina and dig quite a bit deeper.

*without* fetches your odds of playing Gift on curve and drawing 3 cards for 2 is around 75%; with fetches your chances should be closer to like 90-ish%. The first card that springs to mind that I would play in that slot is Night's Whisper and drawing 2 is good, but guaranteeing you hit your land drops is a lot different than drawing 2 cards.

I've played a *lot* of Gift of Estates and in non-green decks it's pretty infrequent that it's a dud, and if it's a dud a signet usually is too.

I would play it before Arcane Signet daily nightly and ever so rightly personally - I play neither (but that's because I have Land Tax, Tithe Sensei's Divining Top Ponder Weathered Wayfarer and Brainstorm doing those things.

Late game, 2 mana draw 3 is spectacular with Varina and late game signet is hot garbage.

However, my experience is tempered by my nearly 100% chance of having an opponent playing Skyshroud Claim.dec :P There is just *so much green out there*.

I should say if I were in a meta where Varina regularly was ahead on lands (which is hard for me to fathom but like I said, trust your experience) - I would probably play Night's Whisper or maybe even Remand or Impulse
A signet never does nothing in the sense that gift does actual nothing. You can always play it. You cannot always play Gift of Estates and "draw 3." if signets are "anti-synergistic" then so is gift of estates. I am using your words here on that one. Neither of them help you curve out with Zombies and both have questionable utility past T5. If you are behind someone on lands then gift is probably better than a signet. But you don't want *either* of those. I think Gift is sub-signet because of the risk of it doing *absolutely nothing* and I mean that in the strictest of meanings.

Also, late game, I would never spend valuable resources to cast a spell like Gift to get three cards I don't need. I would just pitch it to Varina. A zombie deck should not need to do this to gain card advantage. It can do that when it all lines up, but its tangental to what you are trying to do - fill the GY with zombies! NOT "plains cards" lol. Esper Zombies has access to SO many ways to gain card advantage in a consistent way. Either way, both signets or gift are not what you want to draw.

You misunderstand, or maybe I misrepresented - my deck is rarely "ahead on lands" unless I am playing a group of decks that do not ramp with cards like kodama's reach. I have plenty of that in my meta, but each person in my pod has like 10 decks so it is just as frequent that I am facing 3 decks that don't ramp with extra land spells. Many of the green decks I face don't even run those, they run dorks instead. Like elfball - that deck is one of the most powerful at the table and its all dorks. I don't even have to try to get ahead of him on lands.

If you build Varina to maximize her cycling ability, which I believe you are as well as I am, you just have access to lots of card selection which helps you hit land drops more frequently than you would otherwise. So the longer the game goes you will have hit more land drops than many other decks out there. That is what I mean when I say I am ahead on lands. I just hit my lands drops a ton in varina. So in that sense Gift of Estates is kinda bad. And I think that is what most Varina players should strive for - hitting your land drops consistently and curving with zombies as much as possible. At least that is my primary focus. When I do that the rest of the game just falls into place and it is very easy to apply pressure and win big. Early game sequencing and hitting the first 4 land drops is the most critical factor to success.

Night's Whisper, Remand, and Impulse are all unnecessary if you do what I am suggesting. But even then Night's whisper and impulse seem better than gift of estates in the context I am trying to describe. IMO of course.

I think choosing Gift of estates over arcane signet is a bit of a hot take. It doesn't mean you are wrong, just in the minority I would imagine. This whole convo is mostly moot because we are kind of looking at these cards through the lens of "optimal" and neither of us play gift of estates. But I play arcane signet and would stick that in varina before gift of estates 10/10 times.

I am not sure any of this helps @pzbw7z decide what to put in his deck lol. Sorry to hijack your thread for such a minute detail rofl
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago


I am not sure any of this helps @pzbw7z decide what to put in his deck lol. Sorry to hijack your thread for such a minute detail rofl
Think nothing of it @plaganegra. You and @pokken are welcome here.

This afternoon I was able to round up Land Tax, Tithe and Twisted Abomination. I got to use Land Tax to pull out every basic in the deck one game and Twisted fixed my mana early one game. Good adds, all around I think.

The game Twisted worked for me I had both Tainted lands in my starting hand but no Swamp and no fetch. Twisted was just what the doctor ordered. It may never work again, but it worked like a charm this once.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

@pzbw7z Well it looks like you acquired the two best options anway so no need for a gift of estates rofl.

@pokken He's like "I can't handle these two I'll just go get the 1-drops" XD

Tithe is great because it always does something, and sometimes does extra. Doesn't compete with dropping a T2 zombie. I would never have thought to include one of these if it wasn't for Pokken in the first place.

Twisted Abomination is a card you will probably never cast. It is a version of Gift of estates with zero downside, but the ceiling isn't nearly as high for the land fetching part. Getting a 5/3 regen dude on mass reanimate is pretty good though.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Twisted Abomination is a card you will probably never cast. It is a version of Gift of estates with zero downside, but the ceiling isn't nearly as high for the land fetching part. Getting a 5/3 regen dude on mass reanimate is pretty good though.
And I cut a three-drop (Lord of the Accursed) for it!


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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago



Thanks to @plaganegra for the trade!

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Swapped in Arid Mesa for Bloodstained Mire. My Prosper, Tome-Bound deck felt embarrassing without Mire. :?

Found another Mire. Put it in place of a Snow-Covered Swamp.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago



Cutting Phyrexian Arena does not feel entirely good, Utter End is certainly expensive for what it does, so it's a logical cut. The adds are probably improvements even if they do raise the curve a little.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago


Cutting Phyrexian Arena does not feel entirely good, Utter End is certainly expensive for what it does, so it's a logical cut. The adds are probably improvements even if they do raise the curve a little.
I can guarantee you're not going to miss Arena. My best ever play with my 4 copies was trading them in for like 30 apiece. You have significantly better card selection in the command zone, you're just feeling the 'its a staple' juju. And it is, but its past its prime imo. Bidding is a great add to swap out for it, its a card than can actually win you games. You'll never ever be able to say that about arena.

Swapping in Verdict seems a good swap for End too.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago



Grave Scrabbler is an experiment, Sidisi seems pretty solid. The cuts keep getting tougher. Choked Estuary doesn't seem like a really good card in a three-color deck.

Verdict and Bidding - the last changes - have both paid dividends.

The wish list includes the still-missing fetches, i.e. Flooded Strand, Prismatic Vista, Scalding Tarn and Windswept Heath. I've got at least one copy of each in other decks so I might shoot for a nice proxy card for each of the missing ones. Also wanted are counter-magic cards. I'm still debating, but Dovin's Veto seems a good choice and I will probably add Dispel since protecting my important spells is my main focus, and Pact of Negation is also near the top of the list.

Given what I have available, I may start with Countersquall and Negate along with Dispel. I have fond memories of Countersquall from Grixis Delver and Negate has pretty solid utility.

My worries with more changes is there is really only one area to get slots for counter spells; removal. And I am loathe to cut removal. Just today I had to deal with a turn-three Merit Lage token. It would not have been fun if that Vanishing Verse had been a counter spell. :(

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago



Wilhelt seems like a good man - er, Zombie. Wonder is a useful card that profits from looting. The counter magic will hopefully allow me to finally pull off a combo - people keep disrupting me. My other decks combo constantly, but I can't get one off with this deck. Ever!


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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

A copy of Mystic Remora came in yesterday's mail, so a cut is necessary. I think it will probably be Vanishing Verse.

Any thoughts? Updated list in O.P.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
A copy of Mystic Remora came in yesterday's mail, so a cut is necessary. I think it will probably be Vanishing Verse.

Any thoughts? Updated list in O.P.
I do not think this deck can support the recurring upkeep of Mystic Remora personally. You do not want to be thinking about paying the upkeep instead of playing zombies. It crushes your sequencing.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
A copy of Mystic Remora came in yesterday's mail, so a cut is necessary. I think it will probably be Vanishing Verse.

Any thoughts? Updated list in O.P.
I do not think this deck can support the recurring upkeep of Mystic Remora personally. You do not want to be thinking about paying the upkeep instead of playing zombies. It crushes your sequencing.
From another post you might be familiar with:
Mystic Remora - Cheap, easy draw. This gives you advantage at more or less any point in the game, and it's easy enough to just not pay the upkeep once you have what you want. We can get it back if needed with Hall of Heliod's Generosity.

I don't play Hall of Heliod's Generosity, but I do play Sevinne's Reclamation. I personally don't much like Mystic Remora very early in the game when it can interfere with sequencing and I usually have cards in hand anyway. But I do think Remora is useful later when mana is available and cards are needed. The upkeep can't be maintained long, but if Remora nets cards, it's seems like a good deal.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
But I do think Remora is useful later when mana is available and cards are needed. The upkeep can't be maintained long, but if Remora nets cards, it's seems like a good deal.
I've had this discussion a bunch but Mystic Remora is good on turn 1 and it's pointless at most other stages in the game except as combo defense (which you'd rather just have a counterspell most of the time).

The problem with it late game is that it is a *miserable* topdeck when you need to dig out now. The odds of it underperforming Painful Truths or Fact or Fiction or Epiphany at the Drownyard is very high in this specific deck.

If you don't want to cast it on turn 1, you'd be better off playing almost anything else.

YMMV!

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
But I do think Remora is useful later when mana is available and cards are needed. The upkeep can't be maintained long, but if Remora nets cards, it's seems like a good deal.
I've had this discussion a bunch but Mystic Remora is good on turn 1 and it's pointless at most other stages in the game except as combo defense (which you'd rather just have a counterspell most of the time).

The problem with it late game is that it is a *miserable* topdeck when you need to dig out now. The odds of it underperforming Painful Truths or Fact or Fiction or Epiphany at the Drownyard is very high in this specific deck.

If you don't want to cast it on turn 1, you'd be better off playing almost anything else.

YMMV!
I shall be attentive to my mileage.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Mystic Remora in, Vanishing Verse out. Cuts are tough.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Nothing to see here.
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