Prosper: Turbo Tryhard

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pzbw7z
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago


Turbo Prosper



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Table of Contents


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Deck Overview


Why Play Prosper?


Why play Prosper, Tome-Bound?
  • The first thing to note is the Rakdos color combination. This provides access to things like Ad Nauseam, Necropotence, Underworld Breach, Dockside Extortionist and Doomsday! And much more!
  • The next thing is the relatively friendly casting cost of 2BR. The deck is capable of casting Prosper on turn one. This can be done most simply with a B or R producing land and Jeweled Lotus but can be done with multiple other card combinations. Dark Ritual and either Simian Spirit Guide or Chrome Mox can do the trick.
  • Early Prosper means early value. He makes cards from exile available for casting and he produces treasures, so the earlier he's in play, the better. Prosper makes impulse spells and abilities, such as March of Reckless Joy, better. The deck includes several of these cards. Prosper's treasure making also makes Professional Face-Breaker's impulse ability rock, as well as fueling that ability!
  • Prosper's abilities are important to several lines of play, the impulse draw cracks the Doomsday pile and the treasure making fuels the distinctly Prosper combo of Harnfel, Horn of Bounty and Sensei's Divining Top
  • No U! Playing only two colors reduces the cost and complexity of the deck.
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Why play Turbo Ad Nauseam?
  • The deck contains several, powerful cards and combinations. These are described in some detail below and include Doomsday, Ad Nauseam, Peer into the Abyss and Bolas's Citadel. The deck is truly as much a Turbo Ad Nauseam deck as it is a Turbo Prosper deck. Ad Nauseam is just incredibly powerful and can be profitably cast surprisingly early.
  • Taken together, Prosper's abilities and the available Rakdos staples add up to a dynamic deck that can be super fast and can win unexpectedly. Turn-four wins are not uncommon, turn-three and even turn-two wins happen occasionally and it's even possible to win on turn one. I've yet to experience a turn-one win, but I've lived the turn-two dream.
  • This list is patterned heavily after the Doomscrolling cEDH list in the database. It follows another list that was formerly in the database as well, Impulsive Prosper.
  • While this deck seeks to win very quickly, Prosper is also suitable to mid-range, casual play. Some card choices are included below for this type of play and discussion is encouraged.



    Why Not Play Prosper?


    Why not play Prosper, Tome-Bound?
    • Drannith Magistrate stops all of the fun.
    • Rule of Law effects spoil the party.
    • Stax - resource denial - in general, hurts the deck.
    • No U! Doomsday in particular is a risky approach in a Rakdos deck; it's fast and efficient, but without counter magic or Silence-like effects available, it is risky.
    • Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh and Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools arguably do it better.
    • The Turbo-Ad Nauseam approach may be ill-suited for casual play in general. Playing this deck can, at times, feel like pub-stomping. When it does, I switch. I keep this deck for those times when I get to play with the cool kids. No one has really gotten annoyed with me yet - well, maybe once, but winning on turn two will occasionally annoy someone! Some people genuinely admire what the deck can do.


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      Deck List



      Pzbw7z's Prosper Deck

      Enchantments (2)

      Approximate Total Cost:


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      Budget Considerations


      Budget Considerations
      • This is a somewhat limited-budget attempt at a Turbo Prosper deck. The most expensive card currently in the list is Mana Crypt, taking that spot from the previous title holders Jeweled Lotus and Imperial Seal - which has dropped in price precipitously since the Double Masters 2 reprint. Having finally obtained a Mana Crypt, I will not likely pursue anything more expensive than that. My budget picks are explained in the Notable Includes section.
      • Much of the expense is in the mana-base. And that's without Badlands! There are alternatives, but they all come a a cost. If one doesn't envisage using Tainted Pact, some expense can be saved. Some of the fetches might be excluded, but one shouldn't go down many if one hopes for consistency. Ancient Tomb is the most expensive land in the list and one of the best. That often seems to be the way it goes.
      • Of the cards in the expensive ($25+), but not obscenely so ($200+) category, Dockside Extortionist and Cloudstone Curio seem most impactful. Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer is nice, but he doesn't fuel any lines the way Dockside can. Mana Crypt is getting very close to that $200 mark, but it is VERY impactful and HIGHLY recommended. I've tutored for it on turn one many times to facilitate a turn-two Prosper.
      • Sensei's Divining Top is a bit less dear than Dockside, but also very impactful and well worth considering even in a generally budget build.
      • The expensive artifacts that produce fast mana are useful for the kind of speed one needs to be consistently explosive and all of the budget alternatives reduce that consistency and speed. There's no way around that, really. I've accepted that I'm not going to get all the way there. If I were in a proxy-friendly tournament, I might well proxy the big-money cards.
      • Tutors are key to consistent performance and B has the best; the good ones are not cheap, although Double Masters 2 took a big step towards remediating that!
      • Grim Tutor seems to be the next-best tutor not in the deck-list. Diabolic Tutor is maybe better than nothing and Profane Tutor is a very risky gamble - it can't be cast from exile. Scheming Symmetry is just awful. It really is. I tried it. The first time Prosper exiled it, it was very clear to me how bad it was. It should be said Scheming Symmetry would work fine with Opposition Agent in play.
      • There are some other budget tutors that work well, especially if one isn't running Ad Nauseam and Bolas's Citadel, but those are two highly recommended cards. Beseech the Queen will nearly always be cast-able at bbb and Dark Petition will most often be a net 2 to cast, but they hurt off of Ad Nauseum or Citadel.
      • There are links below to two cEDH Prosper decks below. They are substantially more expensive decks.
      • There is also a link to a self-described budget Prosper deck below.


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      Deck Strategy


      Deck Strategy

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      Win Conditions


      Win Conditions
      Twinflame - Dualcaster Mage Combo
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      Twinflame - Dualcaster Mage Combo

      Twinflame
      Dualcaster Mage
      This combo can be assembled with Doomsday but if one card is drawn or impulsed, the other can be tutored up. This is the primary win-con. Most of the rest of the primer describes different ways to assemble this through tutoring, drawing or impulsing cards and importantly, graveyard shenanigans.
      Mayhem Devil
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      Mayhem Devil

      Mayhem Devil
      Dockside Extortionist, Cloudstone Curio and Magda, Brazen Outlaw can create as many treasures as needed as long as the other players control five or more artifacts and enchantments. Magda can tutor for Wishclaw Talisman which can tutor for Mayhem Devil. Sacrifice all of the treasures and kill all of the other players.
      Praetor's Grasp
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      Praetor's Grasp

      Praetor's Grasp
      One can purloin a win-con from an opponent with Praetor's Grasp. Perhaps the most likely scenario is to grasp Thassa's Oracle and win after playing Tainted Pact. Two treasures would be required. The deck can also be milled in other ways, including the Dockside-Curio-Stitcher combo or the Harnfel-Top combo, but in either case, you will probably find Tainted Pact or a tutor before you finish.

      Sometimes, one can grasp a multi-card win-con from an opponent with the help of Recoup, Mizzix's Mastery or Underworld Breach.
      Grinding Station
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      Grinding Station

      Grinding Station
      Grinding Station can completely mill all opponents with the treasures from a Dockside Extortionist-Cloudstone Curio-other creature loop. As long as Dockside generates enough treasures to recast both creatures plus at least one extra, there's no limit to the number of treasures that can be produced and sacrificed to Grinding Station. Target one opponent at a time and mill each one completely.
      Laelia, the Blade Reforged
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      Laelia, the Blade Reforged

      Laelia, the Blade Reforged
      While not one of the primary win-conditions, Laelia can be a last resort or just an opportunistic play. Laelia provides an out against domineering control or stax decks. While there are many ways to exile cards, noteworthy in regard to Laelia is Tainted Pact. Play Pact after attacking and exile enough cards to finish the attacked player.


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      Notable Lines of Play


      Notable Lines of Play

      Doomsday
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      Doomsday

      Doomsday
      Assemble a win-con. It's best to have a piece of interaction in hand or reasonable assurance that it isn't needed. Or, in an emergency, just YOLO!

      The Doomsday pile is typically Final Fortune, Jeska's Will, Twinflame, Dualcaster Mage and some piece of interaction. The last card is usually Tibalt's Trickery or Deflecting Swat but could be Pyroblast or Red Elemental Blast or even Imp's Mischief .

      After resolving Doomsday, go to the end phase; Prosper exiles Final Fortune. Cast Final Fortune. On the new turn draw then cast Jeska's Will impulsing the other three cards. Cast Twinflame targeting Prosper or some other creature; before Twinflame resolves, cast Dualcaster Mage targeting Twinflame. The copy of Twinflame targets Dualcaster. The copies copy more copies until there are enough Dualcaster Mages to kill all of the other players. The last Twinflame targets something else to break the loop.

      In some cases, one might need a removal spell to allow the combo to work instead of a spell to protect it; in that case the fifth card can be Feed the Swarm, Chaos Warp, Terminate or Abrade to name a few.

      If Prosper is not in play, then March of Reckless Joy can be used to crack the pile. Alternatively, Jeska's Will can be used as can Professional Face-Breaker.

      An example pile usable without Prosper with March of Reckless Joy in hand is Dockside Extortionist, Professional Face-Breaker, Twinflame and Dualcaster Mage and one other card. This pile can be cast for rrrrrr5 and a Red card or 2 more; with two invocations of Dockside - the initial casting of Twinflame can target Dockside, this is fairly easily done. Facebreaker will have to impulse Twinflame and Dualcaster, so two extra treasures are necessary.

      An alternate pile, if an opponent is known to be on Thassa's Oracle, again with March of Reckless Joy in hand, is Dockside Extortionist, Praetor's Grasp, Tainted Pact and two other cards. Here, two treasures are needed to cast Thassa's Oracle, a Red card or 2 plus RBBB3 for the spells and Thassa's Oracle will win since your Devotion to Blue will equal two.

      If Professional Facebreaker is in play, then March of Reckless Joy can be put into the No-Prosper piles if necessary; if enough treasures are available, Facebreaker can do all of the work. If not enough treasures are available without first casting Dockside, then Facebreaker will at least have to impulse March of Reckless Joy to start off.
      Ad Nauseam
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      Ad Nauseam

      Ad Nauseam
      Dig for a win-con. The average casting cost is 1.4 (which includes Prosper and Ad Nauseam; it's about 1.34 without those two), so Ad Nauseam should allow you to get something good; a win-con or a tutor or one of the engines. With Peer into the Abyss in the deck, one has to stop once the life total drops to seven or less - unless it's a dire emergency. Ad Nauseam can be cast on an opponent's turn which reduces the possibility of being killed before your next turn comes around and of course separates Ad Nauseam's cost from the turn in which all of the spells will be cast.
      Necropotence
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      Necropotence

      Necropotence
      Dig for a win-con. One needn't limit oneself to the cards one can keep in hand; dig deep! Early game, one can set aside perhaps thirty cards and sculpt a winning hand.
      Underworld Breach
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      Underworld Breach

      Underworld Breach
      Use a Grinding Station line or the Dockside-Curio-Stitcher's Supplier loop to self-mill, looking for a win-con. Cast the win-con with Breach.
      Peer into the Abyss
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      Peer into the Abyss

      Peer into the Abyss
      Half of the deck should get us there. Similarly to Ad Nauseam, we are looking to draw a win-con or tutors or engine pieces. The ritual spells are important here. Entomb and Mizzix's Mastery can enable the casting of Peer into the Abyss for a mana discount. The card disadvantage is more than compensated with the results. Entomb can be cast on the prior opponent's end phase and if things align perfectly, Emergence Zone can allow Mizzix's Mastery to be cast prior to your turn as well.
      Harnfel - Top Combo
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      Harnfel - Top Combo

      Harnfel, Horn of Bounty
      Sensei's Divining Top
      Draw with Top's second ability, discard the drawn card or another card to trigger Harnfel's ability, impulsing Top and another card, cast Top from exile making a treasure off of Prosper, rinse and repeat. Half of the deck winds up in the graveyard and the other half is in exile and cast-able. If a win-con winds up in the graveyard, cast it with Reanimate or Recoup, Mizzix's Mastery or Underworld Breach.
      Bolas's Citadel
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      Bolas's Citadel

      Bolas's Citadel
      Dig for Sensei's Divining Top or a tutor to get Top. Then dig for a win-con or another tutor. It's also reasonable to just get Doomsday instead of Top when you hit a tutor.

      Necropotence works with Bolas's Citadel similarly as Top does; the cards don't go to hand immediately, but it is a simpler process. In either line, there shouldn't be an end phase. :)

      With Top, use Top's ability to draw any card we can't or don't want to cast. Then re-play Top for one-life with Citadel. We can set aside any card we don't want to cast with Necropotence, although we have to be careful as we won't have those cards in hand.
      Dockside - Curio - Stitcher's Supplier Combo
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      Dockside - Curio - Stitcher's Supplier Combo

      Dockside Extortionist
      Cloudstone Curio
      Stitcher's Supplier
      Mill all or nearly all of the deck, play Underworld Breach or use Recoup to cast Doomsday.
      Stitcher's Supplier - Culling the Weak - Underworld Breach Combo
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      Stitcher's Supplier - Culling the Weak - Underworld Breach Combo

      Stitcher's Supplier
      Culling the Weak
      Underworld Breach
      With Underworld Breach in play, target Stitcher's Supplier with Cullimg the Weak. Use the milled cards to recast Stitcher. Use the milled cards to recast Culling. Repeat until a win-con presents itself
      Dockside - Curio - Magda Combo
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      Dockside - Curio - Magda Combo
      Dockside Extortionist and Cloudstone Curio can also combo with Magda, Brazen Outlaw as described in the Win Conditions section.
      Praetor's Grasp
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      Praetor's Grasp

      Praetor's Grasp
      In addition to grasping a win-con we can use, sometimes we just want to take a win-con away from an opponent so they can't win. Food Chain is an example.
      Grinding Station
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      Grinding Station

      Grinding Station
      Aptly named, this card can really make the deck grind. There's a well-known combo with Underworld Breach and any mana-neutral or mana-positive rock; the idea is to self mill until a win-con or one of the engines is put into the graveyard. A tutor can be good enough.

      The combo works by tapping the rock, then sacrificing the rock to Grinding Station, milling three cards. The rock can be cast from the graveyard using the mana the rock made and the three cards milled to pay the Escape price. Repeat the process until a win-con or a tutor presents itself.

      Dockside Extortionist can provide multiple artifacts to grind. Each treasure will create an EtB un-tap trigger that can be responded to. Sacrifice one of the treasures in response to each trigger to mill cards. You are looking for something to flashback with Recoup, possibly a tutor or Doomsday or Peer into the Abyss.

      Lastly, occasionally, you can ruin someone's Vampiric Tutor or similar effect with Grinding Station.

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      Some Other Lists



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      Card Choice Discussion



      The list is heavily influenced by two current Prosper cEDH, especially the Doomscrolling list. Following is a list of cards which are common to both lists. These could be considered a basis for a competitive Prosper list.
      Cards Common to Both cEDH Lists
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      cEDH Core

      Commander (1)

      Enchantments

      Approximate Total Cost:

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      Notable Omissions


      Out of Budget
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      • Badlands - The fetch-able, painless dual is certainly missed.
      • City of Traitors - Not absolutely something I'd play in any case, but well worth considering. The ability to power out two-MV rocks is nice.
      • Lion's Eye Diamond - While useful in Grinding Station - Underworld Breach lines, it's mostly just three free mana here, but three free mana is really good!
      • Mox Diamond - One of the best of the mana rocks, the ability to make any color is awesome.
      • Grim Monolith - A mana-positive rock. Not as important as the others in this list, but worth considering.
      • Wheel of Fortune - Wheel of Misfortune is a poor substitute, but the deck wants both!
      • Yawgmoth's Will - With the self-mill possibilities in the deck, this is badly missed.
      Personal Preference
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      Mid-range Alternatives
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      Lists can skew more mid-range and include some of the following:
      • Aetherflux Reservoir - The list has Bolas's Citadel and Sensei's Divining Top, so why not complete the Death Star? Mainly because there are ample, simpler-to-assemble win-cons. Citadel and Top can win without reservoir and both have tremendous utility on their own or in combination with other cards in the list. Reservoir isn't very good by itself and at four-MV, just not quite good enough in the consensus of the Discord community. It is certainly good enough for a very slightly less gung-ho approach. The Death Star can win games. I used it myself for a while until it got squeezed out by Grinding Station.
      • Dark Confidant - Bob provides extra cards and has a low MV.
      • Grenzo, Havoc Raiser - A combo possibility.
      • Grim Hireling - A treasure maker and interaction on a stick!
      • Storm-Kiln Artist - SKA is key to a storm-like Prosper build.
      • Fire Covenant - Low MV, multi-target removal.
      • Slaughter Pact - Removal Option.
      • Bonus Round - Another key piece of the storm approach.
      • Heat Shimmer - Redundancy for Twinflame.
      • Infernal Grasp - Removal Option. Easy to cast with only one colored mana.

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      Notable Includes


      Notable Includes
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      These are the cards I play in place of the notable omissions along with my feeble justifications. :)

      Some of these cards are common to one or the other of the two cEDH lists the deck is patterned after.

      Cards common to Doomscrolling Card common to Impulsive
      • Grinding Station - Part of a combo described in win conditions.
      • Magda, Brazen Outlaw - Magda is part of a combo with Dockside and Cloudstone Curio but can also sometimes just tutor up important artifacts.
      • Laelia, the Blade Reforged - Laelia makes cards available and helps Prosper make treasures. She can also get seriously big. Tainted Pact can make her large enough to one-shot opponents. The Impulsive cEDH list plays this in place of Skirk Prospector.
      • Springleaf Drum - A budget Rock but a pretty good one. It's cheap for Ad Nauseam or Bolas's Citadel, and it can help get Prosper out a turn ahead of the curve - with a little help from a cooperative creature.
      My Personal Jank
      • Gemstone Mine - Rainbow lands are the best lands! A painless one is a bonus!
      • Mox Amber - This is budget - compared to Mox Diamond! It's a free rock and there are a few low-MV legendary creatures that can make it work early.
      • Graven Cairns - This takes the place of Badlands, and while it's a poor substitute, it feels like it's one of the next-best lands for the slot. If we can't make R or B, something is badly wrong. Tarnished Citadel is an alternative. Blackcleave Cliffs is also an option, but I personally don't like the possibility it could enter tapped. But to be fair, the fourth land will often not be an issue.
      • Imp's Mischief - A fine interactive spell. It's been discussed in the Discord before and judged "definitely playable".
      • Terminate - A good argument exists for Infernal Grasp, but the mana will rarely be an issue, life can used profitably elsewhere, and Terminate is a better pitch for Chrome Mox. Mostly, it was in the pre-con and I haven't seen fit to swap it. :)
      • Tibalt's Trickery - A solid piece of interaction.

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      Credits & Thanks


      Many thanks to Gustav, Fenix, (for Impulsive Prosper list) Wren, (for Doomscrolling list) Grapeshot Enjoyer (for the Storm List) and the rest of the Prosper Discord members!


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      Change Log


      The change log will not begin unless and until the (new) thread is awarded Primer status.






      Some Odds and Ends
      Precon Remainders
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      Precon Remainders
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      Original Post
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      I picked up the pre-constructed Planar Portal deck - I'm not really sure why - and I'm using this space to work on it. About the only thing I've decided so far is that one of my copies of Disciple of the Vault will finally find a home! :grin:

      Kidding aside, I've identified some lands that will go in: and I've got fetches - mostly already in other decks - that I can add: I think the Rat package will get the boot and I will focus on artifacts (maybe Trading Post will finally get played?) and the exile-cast strategy. Beyond that, I will have to sort through what I have left and see what might be good.

      If anyone has taken up Prosper as a Commander and would like to share what they've done, I'd love to hear about it. Meanwhile, there's nearly 100 Prosper decks on MTGGoldfish, so I guess I have some research to do. ;)
      Planar Portal Pre-Con
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      Planar Portal Pre-Con
      Approximate Total Cost:

      Last edited by pzbw7z 4 months ago, edited 211 times in total.

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      pzbw7z
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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      Some changes posted in the description of a deck on MTGGoldfish. Pasted here for ease of reference. His cuts seem mostly correct. His additions? Maybe not.
      SuperSaiyan149 Changes
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      Dark-Dweller Oracle - while synergistic, its minimally impactful. having to spend a mana on top of sacrifing a creature for getting a card for just that turn, is a devotion of too many resources
      Loyal Apprentice - No real synergies with the deck.
      Piper of the Swarm - Weird card choice, doesn't seem to really fit the deck.
      Ogre Slumlord - See Piper of the Swarm.
      Chittering Witch - continuance of the Rat package being cut.
      Pontiff of Blight - A strong card, but not really what I want to do
      Lorcan, Warlock Collector - A powerful card that can probably be better leveraged in a different type of deck.
      Apex of Power - not what I want to do. It costs alot of mana, and yes, while I should be able to cast it, its tough to set up a turn for it.
      Bag of Devouring - a really cool card, but better leverage in an aristocat style with white.
      Ebony Fly - Neat, but I don't like it.
      Fiendlash - weird card choice for this deck.
      Orazca Relic - don't like.
      Unstable Obelisk - neat, might reconsider
      Warlock Class - don't like here
      Underdark Rift - Do not care for this card.
      Zhalfirin Void - will get punished for this card at some point.
      Dead Man's Chest - I've playing it a bit and don't care too much for it.
      Shiny Impetus - not too impactful, i would prefer to do something else.
      Disrupt Decorum - seems very out of place
      Theater of Horrors - would rather have outpost siege
      Phthisis - obserdly high cost

      Additions:

      Dream Devourer - Quite possibly the best card the deck could ever want.
      Valki, God of Lies - very powerful and synnergistic
      Academy Manufactor and Xorn - make the best out of making treasures
      Birgi, God of Storytelling - more exile
      Goldspan Dragon - increase treasure value
      Revel in Riches - treasure payoff
      Flameskull - a neat card that synergizes
      Wheel of Fate - Refuel and get a treasure
      Chandra, Fire Artisan - exile draw
      Chandra, Pyromaster - exile draw
      Laelia, the Blade Reforged - synergies with exiles cards
      Mizzix's Mastery - set up for explosive turn
      Uba Mask - lets see how it works; It's effectivley a hate piece
      Creative Technique - allows for two tirggers
      Outpost Siege - replacment for theatre of horrors
      Wildfire Devils and Author of Shadows - steal opponents graveyard cards from exile
      Treasure Map - good value with treasures and becomes a land
      Poison the Cup - replacement for Phthisis
      Rogue's Passage - to get throught some creatures wihtout worry.

      Honorable Mention:

      Surge to Victory
      Jeska's Will - wanted to keep power level down a bit
      Last edited by pzbw7z 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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      pzbw7z
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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      What are your views on fetches? I generally have always run as many as useful in a Commander deck. I don't have a Polluted Delta or a Scalding Tarn anymore, and I'm not likely to buy either for this, but I have the other six plus Prismatic Vista and Fabled Passage available. I'm inclined to run them all.

      Also, I found my Graven Cairns that I got back in the day of Courser/Anger Jund. I like the filter lands and I usually use them.

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      Post by Legend » 2 years ago

      Please tag the cards so we can reference them. It's hard to evaluate otherwise.
      “Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

      “Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

      "I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery


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      Post by Legend » 2 years ago

      “Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

      “Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

      "I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      Thanks for the reply. I might add some lands. :)

      I see some cards I like, I see some cards that I might not be willing to shell out for, but I'll peruse your list.


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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      Hellkite Tyrant is making me think about ways to make artifacts en masse. Hangarback Walker came to mind. Then I thought about ways to sacrifice Hangerback and ways to get it back from the 'yard. Then I saw Trading Post lying there in the maybe pile!

      Raga
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      Post by Raga » 2 years ago

      Hey,

      This is the list I've been playing and enjoying - so far, Prosper has some real pace and advantage. What I need to do is something similar with my Blim deck and figure out how to win because Rakdos seems to just go with trying to make sure it dies last, rather than winning.

      https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4123633#paper

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      Raga wrote:
      2 years ago
      Hey,

      This is the list I've been playing and enjoying - so far, Prosper has some real pace and advantage. What I need to do is something similar with my Blim deck and figure out how to win because Rakdos seems to just go with trying to make sure it dies last, rather than winning.

      https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4123633#paper
      It's been a busy couple of days so I haven't worked through your whole list yet, but the creatures mostly seem to be what the cool kids are running. :) MTGGoldfish has stats on what people run in archetypes, including Prosper - who seems to be quite popular.

      https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/c ... ound#paper

      CoilingOracle
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      Post by CoilingOracle » 2 years ago

      This what I've been working on. Feels strong.

      Decklist
      1 Xorn
      Approximate Total Cost:


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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      I've just placed an order for Revel in Riches and when that and a Xorn I've already ordered come in, I'll have the cards that I'm going to get for a first cut.

      I'm aware some of my choices may seem whimsical or dubious. :) Or both. :)

      Other creatures I plan to work in include: Chandra, Torch of Defiance is on hand.

      Profane Tutor is going in.

      A few spells I'm considering include: I'll probably try Phyrexian Arena out.

      Some Artifacts I'm considering include: Land upgrades include:

      Legend
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      Post by Legend » 2 years ago

      pzbw7z wrote:
      2 years ago
      *snip*
      Glad to see you're still brewing. Have you had a chance to get any games in yet? Here's a NEXUS link to mine.

      Revel in Riches is as good as it seems. Of course, your opponents will conspire against you to get rid of it.

      Dream Devourer I found disappointing because impulsed cards can't be foretold. It would be so awesome cards could be foretold from exile (assuming the card wasn't already foretold).

      Laelia, the Blade Reforged is so-so. It has no evasion or protection and takes quite a while to become a threat. Plus, double impulsing significantly increases your chances of cards being lost to exile forever.

      Birgi, God of Storytelling I'm not sure why there was early hype about Birgi in relation to Prosper. They do not play well together.

      Murderous Rider is fine removal. It has a teensy bit of synergy with Prosper but nothing too exciting.
      All of these are as effective as they seem. Manufactor is particularly fun.

      Reckless Fireweaver
      Disciple of the Vault
      These creatures and other like them are clutch for my strategy and wind up being KOS as soon as my opponents realize it. I started running Phyrexian Reclamation just to recover them.
      You can't go wrong with good stuff like these. Personally, I'm not playing them because, for example, I've known for 22 years that Phyrexian Arena is good. Now I want to find out if the Prosper engine is good in its own way, when it isn't being propped up by staples. I'd play Theater of Pain over Phyrexian Arena anyways, just to stay on theme. If I were to play a tutor, it would be Vampiric Tutor and/or Scheming Symmetry and only after I'd mastered the deck, and know what for to tutor and when.
      Nothing wrong here either. I'm just not playing it because there's plenty of other BR lands, and I don't like fiddling with DFCs, especially in this deck. There's enough tracking which cards are exiled by what and for how long. Don't be too surprised when you have several different categories of exiled cards.
      “Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

      “Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

      "I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

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      pzbw7z
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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      Legend wrote:
      2 years ago

      Glad to see you're still brewing. Have you had a chance to get any games in yet? Here's a NEXUS link to mine.
      Nope. I haven't even gotten the cards sleeved. I hope to get a game soon.
      Legend wrote:
      2 years ago
      Dream Devourer I found disappointing because impulsed cards can't be foretold. It would be so awesome cards could be foretold from exile (assuming the card wasn't already foretold).
      But Foretold cards trigger Prosper when cast, right?
      Legend wrote:
      2 years ago
      Laelia, the Blade Reforged is so-so. It has no evasion or protection and takes quite a while to become a threat. Plus, double impulsing significantly increases your chances of cards being lost to exile forever.
      I shall be attentive to her results.
      Legend wrote:
      2 years ago
      Birgi, God of Storytelling I'm not sure why there was early hype about Birgi in relation to Prosper. They do not play well together.
      I was wondering if Birgi was here for the flip side.
      Legend wrote:
      2 years ago
      All of these are as effective as they seem. Manufactor is particularly fun.
      I'm glad to hear a vote of confidence for Gadrak, I thought I may have gone too deep on the creatures.
      Legend wrote:
      2 years ago
      Reckless Fireweaver
      Disciple of the Vault
      These creatures and other like them are clutch for my strategy and wind up being KOS as soon as my opponents realize it. I started running Phyrexian Reclamation just to recover them.
      Also glad to hear good thoughts about Disciple. I've had them forever and never played one.
      Legend wrote:
      2 years ago
      You can't go wrong with good stuff like these. Personally, I'm not playing them because, for example, I've known for 22 years that Phyrexian Arena is good. Now I want to find out if the Prosper engine is good in its own way, when it isn't being propped up by staples. I'd play Theater of Pain over Phyrexian Arena anyways, just to stay on theme. If I were to play a tutor, it would be Vampiric Tutor and/or Scheming Symmetry and only after I'd mastered the deck, and know what for to tutor and when.
      Yeah, Vampiric is a better card, but I doubt I'm going to invest in anything that expensive. Knowing what to tutor is a challenge. My GW deck is much easier; Heliod or Ballista. :)
      Theater of Horrors is in the pre-con.

      Thanks for the reply and sorry for the delay in responding. I'll post when I have a result.

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      Finally! A deck-list has been cobbled up and placed in the original post at the top. Cuts and additions are shown in spoilers. I also put the cards left from the precon in a deck-list to see what value there was. Basically very, very, little.

      I have some comments that I wanted to make, but it's past my bedtime already. :) Maybe tomorrow. . .

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      Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

      Why did you cut Marionette Master? I played against a Prosper deck recently and they card did a ton of work to hammer the table.

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      yeti1069 wrote:
      2 years ago
      Why did you cut Marionette Master? I played against a Prosper deck recently and they card did a ton of work to hammer the table.
      It's six mana, mostly. Perhaps I shall reconsider.

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      Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

      Definitely high on the curve, but the Prosper decks I've played against haven't ever seemed to have mana issues when making 1-3 treasure per turn in addition to typically hitting their land drops. I was just curious since it seems like a strong inclusion.

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      I haven't played it yet and I haven't seen it played, so I'm guessing mostly. Marionette Master has a high inclusion rate according to MTGGoldfish, but I had a few things I wanted to try first.

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      I finally played this thing last night; it felt like taking a whittling knife to a gun fight. :(

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      After a couple of one-on-one games this weekend, this thing really does does feel like a whittling knife. It does things, but they don't really accomplish much. Short term, I think I'm going to swap a few things that felt bad for some more removal.

      So maybe. . .
      OUT: Shiny Impetus wouldn't suck nearly as badly in a multi-player game, but it's terrible in a dual. Dream Devourer can do stuff if it come down really early, but it didn't do anything consequential for me and I never lived long enough for Sol Talisman to resolve. Sol would be groovy if it dropped on turn-one, but this thing cranks mana pretty well, so Sol is out.

      IN These may not be the best removal, but they hit Planeswalkers too, so I'm going to give them a try. I'd love to run Damnation, but I would want to trade for it.

      I haven't run across them yet in play, but Fevered Suspicion and Apex of Power just look bad to me, so I might look into replacements for them.

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      Post by Sharpened » 2 years ago

      So I think the thing that strikes me whenever I read about Prosper, Tome-Bound is that people tend not to understand the card. They just cobble together a bunch of cards that synergize with treasure tokens and ways to cast things from exile and call it a deck. While you want those synergies, that alone is not enough. Are you an aggro deck? A control deck? How does the game play out? What's your plan to win?

      Here's what Prosper gives you as a commander:
      [*]A 1/4 Deathtouch body. Not particularly aggressive, but instead a creature that will often sit at home and encourage people to send their attack elsewhere.
      [*]An extra card every turn, provided you use it. As long as you are pro-active, he's your own personal howling mine.
      [*]Treasure generation. Synergy based, so your going to want to be casting spells from exile.

      I think the Treasure generation is the real focus. Draw an extra card every turn is nice, but its not the insane card advantage engine that some of the more insane commanders are. Generating massive amounts of treasure is much more abusable.

      So the basic treasure to win package is stuff like:
      Disciple of the Vault
      Marionette Master
      Reckless Fireweaver
      Ghirapur Aether Grid
      Nadier's Nightblade
      Revel in Riches
      Mayhem Devil

      Treasure production enhancement cards like:
      Xorn
      Academy Manufactor

      And how you want to supplement that is up to you.

      Find cards that do what you want to be doing and your happy to cast even if Prosper is not on the battlefield (but are even better when he is).

      I think you want to be pro-active. Attack your opponents and their lifetotal. Cheap versatile removal that you can use to disrupt your opponents. I suspect with the impulse draw (exile and cast this or by the next turn) that your going to be using the generate treasure with Prosper, your more concerned with versatile and efficient, rather than stuff with perfect timing. Use the extra cards he gives you and the extra mana he gives you to just do MORE than your opponents.

      Basically, be sure you are building with a plan of attack.

      Also, decklists that are just an alphabetical listing of cards with no division for type/utility are brutal to read.

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      Sharpened wrote:
      2 years ago
      What's your plan to win?
      Thanks for the thoughtful reply!

      The plan to win would be Revel in Riches or Hellkite Tyrant. The more probable approach would be to survive while other folks kill each other and get there by finishing the last opponent. :)

      Marionette Master : This was one of the final cuts. I agree it should go back in.
      Ghirapur Aether Grid : This has been in the maybe-board in my mind. I agree it's a good addition.
      Nadier's Nightblade : This has also been in my thoughts. It seems like a good call but I'll have to round one up.
      Sharpened wrote:
      2 years ago
      Also, decklists that are just an alphabetical listing of cards with no division for type/utility are brutal to read.
      Well, thanks for taking the time to do it!

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      Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

      Does anyone else like the idea of Salvage Titan here? It's nothing but a big, dumb beater, but the way this deck cranks out Treasure tokens, he seems viable even if not synergistic.

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