Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

Rules question:
I have a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in play and I play a Gilded Drake. With the Drake etb trigger on the stack, I copy the Drake with Kiki. The etb trigger of the copy triggers and I exchange the copy with one of my opponents' creatures. Then the original Drake etb resolves and I exchange the original Drake with the copy that I just gave to my opponent (having in mind copying it every turn with Kiki). BUT. Do I have to sacrifice the copy of the drake at the end of my turn? It was created with Kiki this turn by me, it changed control twice and got back to me.....
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
Rules question:
I have a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in play and I play a Gilded Drake. With the Drake etb trigger on the stack, I copy the Drake with Kiki. The etb trigger of the copy triggers and I exchange the copy with one of my opponents' creatures. Then the original Drake etb resolves and I exchange the original Drake with the copy that I just gave to my opponent (having in mind copying it every turn with Kiki). BUT. Do I have to sacrifice the copy of the drake at the end of my turn? It was created with Kiki this turn by me, it changed control twice and got back to me.....
If I'm being picky, this doesn't work, as Drake targets and you have to pick the targets for the ETB before you can do any Kiki shenanigans.
If we set that aside and consider just the question of the double exchanged Kiki copy, I believe you would have to sacrifice it, as it is the same permanent the delayed trigger applies to and you have control to sacrifice it.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Greatest of All Time: Current Draft
Approximate Total Cost:

This is what I have in sleeves right now. The revisit to Mind Over Matter was initially inspired by a combo with Swans of Bryn Argoll/Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison/any indestructibility effect, but it also coincides with another goal I'm pursuing this go-around, which is making Zedruu more important. MOM is the easiest way I've ever found to execute the Zedruu donate into Barren Glory win, which is even more tenable with Sphinx of the Second Sun hanging around to effectively put an upkeep on the stack. The play pattern there is move to end step, Sphinx triggers. With trigger on the stack, discard hand to untap mana producers with Mind Over Matter, use the mana produced to donate everything but Barren Glory, and then let the Sphinx trigger resolve.

But also, I was slowly taking importance away from Zedruu's draw from both ends. They've been printing new variations of Temple Bell lately, which has let me play more Howling Mine type effects (I was almost up to 10 for a minute there) so that I don't need Zedruu's draw as much, but also the versions that require tapping to work are inherently poorer targets for donation, making it less likely Zedruu will have anything to donate in the first place. Cutting all the various bells lets me recenter on Zedruu and play Mind Over Matter.

Right now I'm favoring a return to Chrome Mox instead of Lotus Petal, as it's better with Zedruu and I'm cutting Banishing Knack which I worried made the Mox too good. Pretty much all the brand new additions outside of Mind Over Matter are related to Displacer Kitten, and the 3-card loop with Kitten never lets Chrome Mox hit the field to make mana. I believe all my cuts were things that would make 3-card win conditions.

Outside looking in right now:
Vedalken Orrery: cause I like instant speed, and Sphinx demands it.
Paradox Haze: cause it's the best way to make Zedruu's draws important.
Vanish into Memory: Simultaneously a draw spell and temporary defense.
Cursed Mirror: cause the card is just bonkers. A 3 mana clone with haste is good value, and then it sticks around as a mana rock. And I love the synergy play of copying Cavalier of Dawn, killing itself, making a golem, and returning itself to hand. One could rationalize that as a 4-card combo with Kitten and Gilded Lotus.

Most plausible cuts:
Nahiri, the Harbinger: Nahiri was in here for basically 3 reasons: to protect me from my own Possibility Storm, to ultimate tutor out Knowledge Pool, and to gloat to friends who thought it was a bad card in spoiler season. I no longer fear the storm, I've lived the dream with Knowledge Pool, and I don't often play with those same friends anymore, so I'm probably cutting this for something.
Rest in Peace: I don't technically need it to Mirror of Fate combo, and it draws the ire of certain opponents, but it's also donatable so I don't want to cut it.
Sudden Substitution: it's an excellent card, it plays with Zedruu, it can sub in for Zedruu with Dissipation Field nonsense, but something about it still feels foreign to the deck somehow. I can't really explain the feeling.
Mindmoil: is the only card in the deck I can't rationalize a combo for. I might be able to bring myself to just play this in a different deck.

Weakness I'd like to address but have no solid plans:
-Relic of Legends is definitely in, as it adds redundancy for infinite flicker combos that I've always wanted but never had a good alternative to Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge. Having that with a floor of being a manalith, and a most common situation of making two mana a turn with just Zedruu out is enough for me to play it. That being said, another cheap legendary creature or two would make this shine, and I'm quite fond of the play patterns of cheap legends into big fat Mirrorweave targets. I just don't know what I would play (especially with Nin and Kwain off the table) or how to make room.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Weakness I'd like to address but have no solid plans:
-Relic of Legends is definitely in, as it adds redundancy for infinite flicker combos that I've always wanted but never had a good alternative to Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge. Having that with a floor of being a manalith, and a most common situation of making two mana a turn with just Zedruu out is enough for me to play it. That being said, another cheap legendary creature or two would make this shine, and I'm quite fond of the play patterns of cheap legends into big fat Mirrorweave targets. I just don't know what I would play (especially with Nin and Kwain off the table) or how to make room.
If you want to put Nin back, it's been a while since I was able to avoid the MoM+Nin+Swans 3-card combo by replacing Swans with Illusory Ambusher. There are still 4-card combo infinites with Flawless Maneuver, a card that is needed anyways for the Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison+MoM+Ambusher/Swans.

Also, very surprised to not see Coveted Jewel in the list. Too powerful a synergy with Displacer Kitten perhaps?
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Weakness I'd like to address but have no solid plans:
-Relic of Legends is definitely in, as it adds redundancy for infinite flicker combos that I've always wanted but never had a good alternative to Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge. Having that with a floor of being a manalith, and a most common situation of making two mana a turn with just Zedruu out is enough for me to play it. That being said, another cheap legendary creature or two would make this shine, and I'm quite fond of the play patterns of cheap legends into big fat Mirrorweave targets. I just don't know what I would play (especially with Nin and Kwain off the table) or how to make room.
If you want to put Nin back, it's been a while since I was able to avoid the MoM+Nin+Swans 3-card combo by replacing Swans with Illusory Ambusher. There are still 4-card combo infinites with Flawless Maneuver, a card that is needed anyways for the Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison+MoM+Ambusher/Swans.

Also, very surprised to not see Coveted Jewel in the list. Too powerful a synergy with Displacer Kitten perhaps?
I didn't even attempt it with Displacer Kitten. I just assume it's too much.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
If you want to put Nin back, it's been a while since I was able to avoid the MoM+Nin+Swans 3-card combo by replacing Swans with Illusory Ambusher. There are still 4-card combo infinites with Flawless Maneuver, a card that is needed anyways for the Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison+MoM+Ambusher/Swans.
My hesitancy here is that it isn't only Swans of Bryn Argoll that make it go nuts. Even just an Izzet Boilerworks gets you to game ending mode.

We can imagine a scenario where it's turn 6, I have just Izzet Boilerworks, 4 other lands, Zedruu the Greathearted and Nin, the Pain Artist in play, and I've done nothing else. I tap out for Mind Over Matter, leaving 6 cards in hand. I can untap Boilerworks 6 times to make 12 mana, That lets me blast Zedruu for 10, drawing 10 cards. One card would untap Nin, another would ideally be a creature, the rest can be discarded for 2 mana each, allowing for 6-14 more cards drawn (most commonly 10). Almost any creature would let me continue the cycle, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer would allow noncreature to continue the cycle, Gilded Lotus would generate mana efficiently enough to just use Zedruu as the sacrificial goat every time... Nin + MOM is just as close to "immediately draw through your library" as Jewel-Kitten. It may not be deterministic, but it's well above the power level of the rest of the deck.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
My hesitancy here is that it isn't only Swans of Bryn Argoll that make it go nuts. Even just an Izzet Boilerworks gets you to game ending mode.

We can imagine a scenario where it's turn 6, I have just Izzet Boilerworks, 4 other lands, Zedruu the Greathearted and Nin, the Pain Artist in play, and I've done nothing else. I tap out for Mind Over Matter, leaving 6 cards in hand. I can untap Boilerworks 6 times to make 12 mana, That lets me blast Zedruu for 10, drawing 10 cards. One card would untap Nin, another would ideally be a creature, the rest can be discarded for 2 mana each, allowing for 6-14 more cards drawn (most commonly 10). Almost any creature would let me continue the cycle, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer would allow noncreature to continue the cycle, Gilded Lotus would generate mana efficiently enough to just use Zedruu as the sacrificial goat every time... Nin + MOM is just as close to "immediately draw through your library" as Jewel-Kitten. It may not be deterministic, but it's well above the power level of the rest of the deck.
While Nin+MoM+something that gives 2+ mana + Zedruu/Indestructibility is still a 4-card combo (and Nin needs to survive a turn, something that rarely happens in my local playgroup :( ) I get your point. Other low cmc legendary creatures that fit the theme? Fblthp, the Lost for the etb perhaps, now that there is also kitty in the list? Maybe Krark, the Thumbless for the Possibility Storm Shenanigans? The Reality Chip could be another interesting option. There are a lot tbh, but I am not sure if any of them deserve a spot.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
While Nin+MoM+something that gives 2+ mana + Zedruu/Indestructibility is still a 4-card combo (and Nin needs to survive a turn, something that rarely happens in my local playgroup :( ) I get your point. Other low cmc legendary creatures that fit the theme? Fblthp, the Lost for the etb perhaps, now that there is also kitty in the list? Maybe Krark, the Thumbless for the Possibility Storm Shenanigans? The Reality Chip could be another interesting option. There are a lot tbh, but I am not sure if any of them deserve a spot.
Things I'm half eying up are Krark, Fblthp, Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice, and Rootha, Mercurial Artist. I can also go back to Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage as a flash enabler.

But now I'm looking at The Reality Chip, because I "you can look at the top card of your library" is one of my favorite lines of card text. Good shout.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Things I'm half eying up are Krark, Fblthp, Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice, and Rootha, Mercurial Artist. I can also go back to Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage as a flash enabler.

But now I'm looking at The Reality Chip, because I "you can look at the top card of your library" is one of my favorite lines of card text. Good shout.
I can guarantee Rootha's effectiveness in general (copying big spells like Sea-Gate Restoration or Time Spiral on the spot is very powerful and Turnabout+Rootha+flash enabler+whatever mana sink a la Walking Archive or some kind of Pandemonium effect is one of the easier 4-card combos to achieve) but I am not sure that you should go for legends with CMC bigger than 2 if you want to optimize the mana curve for a card like Relic of Legends. At the very least you should be able to go t2 some kind of legendary creature, t3 Relic.

EDIT: The Reality Chip pairs nicely with Possibility Storm.....
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
I can guarantee Rootha's effectiveness in general (copying big spells like Sea-Gate Restoration or Time Spiral on the spot is very powerful and Turnabout+Rootha+flash enabler+whatever mana sink a la Walking Archive or some kind of Pandemonium effect is one of the easier 4-card combos to achieve) but I am not sure that you should go for legends with CMC bigger than 2 if you want to optimize the mana curve for a card like Relic of Legends. At the very least you should be able to go t2 some kind of legendary creature, t3 Relic.

EDIT: The Reality Chip pairs nicely with Possibility Storm.....
I'm not worried about optimizing Relic, just letting it be cute sometimes. As gross as turn 2 legend into turn 3 Relic + second legend would be, I'm more thinking of scenarios like drawing the relic on like a turn 8, having two legendary creatures in play, and getting to think "hmmm, well that's effectively free".

Rootha, Mercurial Artist slots into a pile of different existing combos, and would also be another goofy thing with Swans of Bryn Argoll, Electrodominance, and Mind Over Matter. Aim a Electrodominance at Swans for a decent amount, copy with Rootha, the copy hits swans to draw X cards and then casts Rootha with the original still on the stack, and then MOM pays for the Rootha activations.

Also, I would be lying if I said I wasn't still trying to make Magosi, the Waterveil a thing.
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Post by Caravan » 1 year ago

In the primer, how do you go about infinite Knowledge Pool triggers in this scenario (the Eye of the Storm, RIP, Minds Desire, and mirror of fate combo)? I assume it would work with share the spoils as well?

My preferred win condition if I get this assembled is get Leyline and then make a big stack where everyone sacrifices all permanents with infinite Releases, shuffle hands and graveyards back in with Temporal Cascade, exile all libraries with infinite Knowledge Pool triggers, set up infinite turns, then resolve Barren Glory, and then pass the turn to myself with every other card in exile.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Caravan wrote:
1 year ago
In the primer, how do you go about infinite Knowledge Pool triggers in this scenario (the Eye of the Storm, RIP, Minds Desire, and mirror of fate combo)? I assume it would work with share the spoils as well?

My preferred win condition if I get this assembled is get Leyline and then make a big stack where everyone sacrifices all permanents with infinite Releases, shuffle hands and graveyards back in with Temporal Cascade, exile all libraries with infinite Knowledge Pool triggers, set up infinite turns, then resolve Barren Glory, and then pass the turn to myself with every other card in exile.
There's a few options. You can stick Turnabout and Leave // Chance in the pool, so that each trigger of Eye of the Storm generates mana and bounces Knowledge Pool. With something like Echo Storm or Replication Technique in the Eye, it's a more straightforward way to just make infinite Knowledge Pools. You could also play March of the Machines and repeatedly Jeskai Charm Knowledge Pool into the deck to Mind's Desire out.

And absolutely, most of these (or whatever methods I'm not thinking of at the moment) work just as well with Share the Spoils. And if you follow the more recent posts and want to try out Displacer Kitten, that makes it about as self-contained as you're gonna get.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

A bunch of older cards came into my pocession and I am thinking about some interactions and combos that could suit Zedruu.
F.e. I am trying to use Planar Guide (a very unique ability, also I have a very cool foil one) in some kind of 4-card combo and, after not being able to think about any interaction with Mirror of Fate, I was able to realize that it can go infinite with something that copies it a la Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, something that can give me an extra turn, like Wormfang Manta (another card that came into my pocession) and something that can counter Manta's etb, like the new Sister of Silence from Warhammer40k. Also, you know with what card Wormfang Manta could synergize well? Chance for Glory. Perhaps along with something that recurs Chance to hand and something that bounces both the recursion and the Manta back to hand? I want to avoid cards like Equilibrium or Cloudstone Curio, I know how dangerous they can be.
Thoughts?
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
A bunch of older cards came into my pocession and I am thinking about some interactions and combos that could suit Zedruu.
F.e. I am trying to use Planar Guide (a very unique ability, also I have a very cool foil one) in some kind of 4-card combo and, after not being able to think about any interaction with Mirror of Fate, I was able to realize that it can go infinite with something that copies it a la Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, something that can give me an extra turn, like Wormfang Manta (another card that came into my pocession) and something that can counter Manta's etb, like the new Sister of Silence from Warhammer40k. Also, you know with what card Wormfang Manta could synergize well? Chance for Glory. Perhaps along with something that recurs Chance to hand and something that bounces both the recursion and the Manta back to hand? I want to avoid cards like Equilibrium or Cloudstone Curio, I know how dangerous they can be.
Thoughts?
I don't see any more efficient 4 card complete combos immediately. I do see other synergies to build on though. Both Planar Guide and Chance for Glory synergize with effects that either counter a trigger or end the turn. You can Stifle half of Wormfang Manta, or you can Wormfang Manta half of Chance for Glory, or you can Stifle the game loss from Chance for Glory. Those 3 cards all internally synergize with each other. (I'm using stifle as a stand-in for all the variations of that effects). And you can equally Stifle the Planar Guide to make a permanent board wipe.

Mirrorweave + Wormfang Manta is a silly interaction too. Oh.... oh no. Wormfang Manta + Infinite Reflection + Zedruu. My creatures give me extra turns when they die, and your's skip your turn when they enter. Lol, what a silly card.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
I don't see any more efficient 4 card complete combos immediately. I do see other synergies to build on though. Both Planar Guide and Chance for Glory synergize with effects that either counter a trigger or end the turn. You can Stifle half of Wormfang Manta, or you can Wormfang Manta half of Chance for Glory, or you can Stifle the game loss from Chance for Glory. Those 3 cards all internally synergize with each other. (I'm using stifle as a stand-in for all the variations of that effects). And you can equally Stifle the Planar Guide to make a permanent board wipe.

Mirrorweave + Wormfang Manta is a silly interaction too. Oh.... oh no. Wormfang Manta + Infinite Reflection + Zedruu. My creatures give me extra turns when they die, and your's skip your turn when they enter. Lol, what a silly card.
I didn't know you can interact (counter, copy, etc) only with the last part of an ability that is a delayed trigger! I thought you can interact only with the entire ability when the first effect gets on the stack or not at all. Thanks!!
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Post by ihatemaryfisher » 1 year ago

I haven't seen anyone discuss Parallax Wave or Parallax Tide. Anyone try these out?

I've been looking for an alternative to Pandemonium, because it usually sits in my hand unless I have the rest of a combo, whereas Parallax Wave doubles as removal. With Opalescence, Parallax Wavecan flicker itself and 4 other creatures infinitely. That makes a 2-card infinite flicker combo. I never ran Displacer Kitten so I never experimented with infinite flickers.

Combos with Sakashima the Impostor and Relic of Legends for infinite mana.

Combos with Precursor Golem to make infinite golems, which fits into an irritating, non-deterministic combo with Chaos Warp to get (probabilistically) every permanent from your deck into play.

Combos with Vedalken Plotter to swap everybody's lands, which I've always wanted to do.

Cut Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; it's 3 cards to make infinite Parallax Wave creatures with haste. I've been wanting to cut Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker anyway, just because it draws too much ire.

Cut Share the Spoils; 3 cards to exile everybody's library.

Additionally the creatures exiled with Parallax Wave enter the battlefield at the same time. This turns Mystic Reflection from niche removal/clone into a pseudo-Mirrorweave with ETBs.

Finally, infinite flickering on your opponent's creatures is interesting. Sometimes you can steal an easy win if they have something like Elvish Visionary to make them draw out their deck. Not sure if a 3-card combo using your opponents' stuff is too easy though...

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Post by lyonhaert » 1 year ago

ihatemaryfisher wrote:
1 year ago
I've been looking for an alternative to Pandemonium, because it usually sits in my hand unless I have the rest of a combo...
First thing that comes to mind is Warstorm Surge for avoiding the symmetry of Pandemonium.
ihatemaryfisher wrote:
1 year ago
That makes a 2-card infinite flicker combo.
As well as the other combos you listed that were 2-3 cards, in general that's a problem for most us trying to follow this thread's philosophy with the deck of combos not being fewer than 4 cards (though some include the commander).
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

lyonhaert wrote:
1 year ago
ihatemaryfisher wrote:
1 year ago
I've been looking for an alternative to Pandemonium, because it usually sits in my hand unless I have the rest of a combo...
First thing that comes to mind is Warstorm Surge for avoiding the symmetry of Pandemonium.
I personally use Terror of the Peaks. It has the added bonus of being much easier to copy. The body is also nice....
ihatemaryfisher wrote:
1 year ago
I haven't seen anyone discuss Parallax Wave or Parallax Tide. Anyone try these out?
Cutting literally almost every creature and enchantment etb from the deck is too much of a cost personally. If I was to run any of the two, I would have the Opalescence cut (which coincidentally, did on my own a few days ago).

Funny thing though, I do run Parallax Wave (without Opalescence ofc) in my Phelddagrif deck, that is also build under the similar 4-card combos concept. I do search my library there though..... I use the Wave with cards like Recruiter of the Guard, Flicker of Fate and Concordant Crossroads in lines that usually involve other cards as well, like flicker Wave, target Recruiter with Wave, fetch Eternal Witness, play Witness, bring back Flicker, flicker Wave, target Recruiter & Witness with Wave, bring back Flicker & fetch Bloom Tender, play Bloom Tender, tap Tender for mana, flicker Wave, target Recruiter, Witness & Bloom with Wave, bring back Flicker & fetch Fathom Mage, play Fathom, loop for Infinite mana and draw my library, win with infinite mana and my whole library in hand (a la Helix Pinnacle). There are variations involving Alchemist's Refuge, Naru Meha, Master Wizard and Reset too (Turnabout is easier than Reset, but I also try to use in my Phelldagrif list 0 of the cards that I use in my Zedruu one).
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Teneb, the Harvester AntiBlack Pestilence
Dakkon Blackblade Control
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
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Post by ihatemaryfisher » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
Cutting literally almost every creature and enchantment etb from the deck is too much of a cost personally. If I was to run any of the two, I would have the Opalescence cut (which coincidentally, did on my own a few days ago).
Would you mind sharing your Phelddagrif list? I'm always looking for more puzzleboxes

[/quote]
lyonhaert wrote:
1 year ago
As well as the other combos you listed that were 2-3 cards, in general that's a problem for most us trying to follow this thread's philosophy with the deck of combos not being fewer than 4 cards (though some include the commander).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I only found >4-card winning combos with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Pandemonium, and Share the Spoils. None of the other creatures or enchantments can win with their ETBs alone. I think the combos I listed still require 4 cards to win. I'm willing to make significant changes to try it out though, so let me know what else I'd need to cut.

EDIT: I've just found another issue, which is that you can stack the triggers such that Parallax Wave and Opalescence together will exile all of your opponents' creatures and enchantments permanently, which is just too oppressive and easy. Maybe I will have to cut Opalescence

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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

ihatemaryfisher wrote:
1 year ago
Would you mind sharing your Phelddagrif list? I'm always looking for more puzzleboxes
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5131559#paper
ihatemaryfisher wrote:
1 year ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I only found >4-card winning combos with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Pandemonium, and Share the Spoils. None of the other creatures or enchantments can win with their ETBs alone. I think the combos I listed still require 4 cards to win. I'm willing to make significant changes to try it out though, so let me know what else I'd need to cut.
Venser bounces all your opponents' permanents to their hands as well. I will sure count that as a winning combo.
Inferno Titan kills your opponents as well. Another winning combo.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Teneb, the Harvester AntiBlack Pestilence
Dakkon Blackblade Control
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge/Reanimator
Hans Eriksson Smash

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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

I decided that my list wanted more explosive ramp cards, so I tried a Dockside Extortionist. I know I am far from original, but lets just say that a new world opened for me. Apart from the obvious value the card has by itself, there is a lot of synergy with many other pieces in the deck. Copiable with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? check. Flickerable with Displacer Kitten? check (it can be even used with Kitten+Venser, Shaper Savant+Replication Technique for infinite mana). Makes any possible clone we play into ramp? check. You don't run Kiki any more? Then you can run Lore Drakkis and have your Dockside infinite along with Leave // Chance or Replication Technique for infinite mana + any mana sink or Pandemonium effect. And for anyone who does run Kiki and wants an infinite with Dockside, then you can add an Archaeomancer effect creature (If you are not iffy with its Turnabout+Replication Technique synergy) and have practically the same combo as Lore Drakkis. I don't think there are any 3-card combos that I don't see. Just my thoughts about a very powerful staple in the format that can have uses in the deck.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Teneb, the Harvester AntiBlack Pestilence
Dakkon Blackblade Control
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge/Reanimator
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Right now I'm favoring a return to Chrome Mox instead of Lotus Petal, as it's better with Zedruu and I'm cutting Banishing Knack which I worried made the Mox too good. Pretty much all the brand new additions outside of Mind Over Matter are related to Displacer Kitten, and the 3-card loop with Kitten never lets Chrome Mox hit the field to make mana. I believe all my cuts were things that would make 3-card win conditions.
Hmmm.... I am also in favor of leaving Petal behind (mainly because I want to take Kiki-Jiki out. No matter how fair I use him, he makes my opponents roll their eyes. It was not your fault my beloved goblin.... :cry: ). But hear me out. Since the Kiki/Cavalier/Ascendancy/Petal is out of the window, why replace the Petal with Chrome Mox when you can use Everflowing Chalice instead? It is a free artifact for the Kitten+Venser synergy, a free noncreature permanent that you have no fear to use with Jeskai Ascendancy and Banishing Knack, it can be donated as a useless gift, it can be used as a t2 rock without any card disadvantage unlike Mox and finally, it has the potential to be in even more combos due to the fact that in the mid to late game it can be played as a big rock a la Gilded Lotus. Is the colored mana of the Mox that important to be considered superior to Chalice despite all those? I do not think so.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Teneb, the Harvester AntiBlack Pestilence
Dakkon Blackblade Control
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Thraximundar Zomblins
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
Hmmm.... I am also in favor of leaving Petal behind (mainly because I want to take Kiki-Jiki out. No matter how fair I use him, he makes my opponents roll their eyes. It was not your fault my beloved goblin.... :cry: ). But hear me out. Since the Kiki/Cavalier/Ascendancy/Petal is out of the window, why replace the Petal with Chrome Mox when you can use Everflowing Chalice instead? It is a free artifact for the Kitten+Venser synergy, a free noncreature permanent that you have no fear to use with Jeskai Ascendancy and Banishing Knack, it can be donated as a useless gift, it can be used as a t2 rock without any card disadvantage unlike Mox and finally, it has the potential to be in even more combos due to the fact that in the mid to late game it can be played as a big rock a la Gilded Lotus. Is the colored mana of the Mox that important to be considered superior to Chalice despite all those? I do not think so.
You are not wrong on any count, but there remains a reason for me to play something mox or mox adjacent, and that is the turn 1 Howling Mine. There is something inside me, something evil, that just takes great joy in a hyper accelerated game garnished with people complaining that I made them discard to hand size on turn 1. You may or may not like that play pattern, but I can't see myself using any configuration of this deck incapable of that cheese.

Semi-related to the topic of personal preference and in response to your prior post, Dockside Extortionist is great, it's powerful, it's a combo enabler, it's a staple for good reason, it's nearly in the same category as Sol Ring. The number 1 reason not to play it is that it's super powerful, the number 2 reason not to play it is to avoid counting, so there are purely personal preference arguments against that one.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

In my tryouts with various cards for Zedruu, I managed to (finally!) take a stupid win by flipping Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun for a bunch of mana, casting an It That Betrays, Replication Technique it, play a Bronze Bombshell, use Zedruu to donate one It to each of my opponents, donate the Bombshell and enjoy the "Hot potato Volleyball" (also used a Firestorm for the remainng few dmg). I tried really hard for this interaction. :grin:
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Teneb, the Harvester AntiBlack Pestilence
Dakkon Blackblade Control
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge/Reanimator
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
In my tryouts with various cards for Zedruu, I managed to (finally!) take a stupid win by flipping Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun for a bunch of mana, casting an It That Betrays, Replication Technique it, play a Bronze Bombshell, use Zedruu to donate one It to each of my opponents, donate the Bombshell and enjoy the "Hot potato Volleyball" (also used a Firestorm for the remainng few dmg). I tried really hard for this interaction. :grin:
That is some truly inspired nonsense.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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