Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

jjjrrrgggnnn wrote:
1 year ago
Hopefully you all might be able to help me out. I was playing Zedruu in a game tonite and ran into a situation that I couldn't figure out, both my maths and my grasp of the rules of the game failed me.

On board I had Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison, Precursor Golem +2 Golem tokens, Heliod, Sun-Crowned. Let's for arguments sake say there were 10 other creatures on the board other than the ones I've mentioned.

I activated Heliod to give lifelink to the Golden Guardian and then activated its fight ability targeting a golem token, in response I cast Arcbond onto Golden Guardian.

So... What happens exactly? I've got four copies of Arcbond, but only the damage from Golden Guardian has lifelink, and jeeze help me and my small brain out here. I'm sure the answer is blindingly obvious but I'm not getting it.

Can anyone Eli5 and bonus points if you can tell me a formula of exactly how much damage each player is receiving.

Now, I know this isn't the optimal combo of Heliod + Precursor Golem + 2x lifelink activations + Arcbond + exactly 1 damage, but I'd forgotten about that at the time.

Thanks in advance!
Unfortunately, there is no formula for this, as the creatures all die at different times. You can deal 4 to everything and get 4 4-damage triggers and a 3-damage trigger before all the golems die. Or, you can use the Heliod trigger to keep a 3/3 alive through a 3 damage triggers and get 5 3-damage triggers and 1 4-damage trigger. Either way, you deal up to 19 damage to everything and everyone, depending on how much those things live through, and how much they live through is gonna determine how much life you gain. At minimum, you're gaining 48, but it could be more if there are creatures that survive more than 3 damage. Also, you could theoretically give another golem lifelink with the reverse side of Golden Guardian after it dies if you set it up to not be the last golem standing.

It's not super big numbers, but it is super complicated.
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Post by jjjrrrgggnnn » 1 year ago

Unfortunately, there is no formula for this, as the creatures all die at different times. You can deal 4 to everything and get 4 4-damage triggers and a 3-damage trigger before all the golems die. Or, you can use the Heliod trigger to keep a 3/3 alive through a 3 damage triggers and get 5 3-damage triggers and 1 4-damage trigger. Either way, you deal up to 19 damage to everything and everyone, depending on how much those things live through, and how much they live through is gonna determine how much life you gain. At minimum, you're gaining 48, but it could be more if there are creatures that survive more than 3 damage. Also, you could theoretically give another golem lifelink with the reverse side of Golden Guardian after it dies if you set it up to not be the last golem standing.

It's not super big numbers, but it is super complicated.
Thanks for getting back to me, In many ways, I'm glad it's as complicated as I thought! It's also good to know that it was (probably) the correct play to have made at the time, as I would have wiped the board and gained more life than I would have lost and severely kneecapped the other two players.

When I have more time I'm going to get the cards out and try and walk through step-by-step how it would have played out in case I'm in the same situation in the future.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

jjjrrrgggnnn wrote:
1 year ago
Thanks for getting back to me, In many ways, I'm glad it's as complicated as I thought! It's also good to know that it was (probably) the correct play to have made at the time, as I would have wiped the board and gained more life than I would have lost and severely kneecapped the other two players.

When I have more time I'm going to get the cards out and try and walk through step-by-step how it would have played out in case I'm in the same situation in the future.
That is a good strategy. In the heat of the moment, I'd advise going with your gut and letting what happens happens. Going through these things step-by-step to optimize the outcome is a long, exhausting process, that's better reserved for a quiet moment of solitaire, and then next time your gut instinct is slightly more informed.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

After a lot of playtesting with Displacer Kitten, I have to say that I am in love with the card to the point I consider it a staple in my list. Works as pseudo-protection vs spot removal, has excellent synergy with any etb/haste effect (Cavalier of Dawn, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Precursor Golem, Gilded Lotus, Coveted Jewel, resets Eye of the Storm/Knowledge Pool/Share the Spoils/ Sakashima the Impostor/Detention Sphere, etc), has place as a piece in many existing AND new 4-card combos(I have successfully tried Kitty+ Coveted Jewel+Pull from Eternity+Mystic Retrieval, I now try to find space for an old friend, Venser, Shaper Savant, to playtest Kitty+Venser+Lotus Petal+Mind's Desire/Jeskai Ascendancy/Pandemonium or even Kitty+Venser+Rootha, Mercurial Artist+Temporal Mastery). The only "problem" is that the Kitty+Coveted Jewel interaction is EXTREMELY strong, probably even stronger than the Mindmoil+Alhammarret's Archive one!! Not a 2-card infinite in our standards, but its the next best thing. Sure, it needs more cheap non-creature spells to "storm off", but this is extremely easy to achieve.
No 3-card winning infinites found yet. I will be very sad if I do so.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

So, as we run out of daylight and there's more time for inside hobbies, it's time for me to start playing more magic, and an interesting game happened. I won't say a good game, cause it was a complete one-sided blowout, but the way everything curved out was satisfying:

Turn 1: Draw card, play tapped land, end turn.
Turn 2: Draw card, play Command Tower, play Kami of the Crescent Moon, end turn.
Turn 3: Draw 2 cards, play basic land, play Relic of Legends, end turn.
Turn 4: Draw 2 cards, play Zedruu, play tapped land, end turn.

Fun side note: because of the Relic and my legends, I had Narset's Reversal available on both turns 3 and 4, and just didn't need it.

The final turn: Draw 2 cards, play another basic. 8 mana available. Use 6 for Coveted Jewel, draw 3 cards. Tap Jewel and my other 2 mana for Replication Technique making 2 more Coveted Jewels, draw 6 more cards. Tap the jewels for blue to cast Turnabout and Narset's Reversal to bounce and copy it. Untap my artifacts, make 10 mana, play Unbender Tine for effectively 1 mana, play Turnabout to untap my artifacts again. Untap Zedruu with Unbender Tine, cast Detention Sphere to clear away one opponent's only creature, then tap my 3 Jewels for 3 of each color and donate all 3 to the creatureless player. Attack them with Zedruu, take back my jewels, draw 9 more cards, and find the combo I wanted. Cast Opalescence, and then Sakashima the Impostor to do the infinite self-flickerwith Detention Sphere, but tap Sakashima with Relic of Legends each time for infinite mana. Play Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn to draw 17 more cards, then Warstorm Surge, then Leave // Chance to bounce Sakashima (quickly), and then back to infinite flickers to Surge everyone to death.

So yeah: I got to do the thing I wanted with Relic of Legends, and have been convinced that Coveted Jewel really is more redundancy for Mind's Desire than Gilded Lotus. "Oops, I drew 18 cards and gained mana" is pretty gross. @Sefir I haven't tried it with Displacer Kitten yet, but I imagine it goes something like that but even dumber. If I like both, I do not know what I would prioritize, cause I really like the idea of flickering Share the Spoils repeatedly.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

Image

I removed (with pain, I might add) Precursor Golem from my list just 2 weeks ago. I now have to put it back......
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
Image

I removed (with pain, I might add) Precursor Golem from my list just 2 weeks ago. I now have to put it back......
Oooooooooooooooooooo...
fancy

Also, Loran of the Third Path adding to the list of low mana value legends that draw me cards.
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Post by jjjrrrgggnnn » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Also, Loran of the Third Path adding to the list of low mana value legends that draw me cards.
Have you had any thought of what you're cutting for this? As far as I can see the most one-for-one choice is Temple Bell, but that feels... Wrong

Maybe I'm being too sentimental.

On another note, I've been having loads of success with running Blacksmith's Skill, not once have I been unhappy drawing it, and it's nutty with Precursor Golem. I suppose its very similar to Ephemeral Shields which used to be in the main list, but was a bit before my time.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

jjjrrrgggnnn wrote:
1 year ago
Have you had any thought of what you're cutting for this? As far as I can see the most one-for-one choice is Temple Bell, but that feels... Wrong

Maybe I'm being too sentimental.

On another note, I've been having loads of success with running Blacksmith's Skill, not once have I been unhappy drawing it, and it's nutty with Precursor Golem. I suppose its very similar to Ephemeral Shields which used to be in the main list, but was a bit before my time.
Temple Bell is a card I'm not hesitant to cut, I have cut it and re-added it probably a dozen times. It's that sort of card to me: simple and effective, it stands on its own in any variation of this deck, but isn't a necessary piece to make other things work. It's both easy to add and easy to cut.

But I'm not even thinking about cuts, per se, at the moment. Without breaking the deck apart, I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head what I did cut for some of the more recent cards I've been trying. The next stage of this deck for me is 100% a complete teardown and rebuild. There are just so many considerations. For example, Ephemeral Shields was a card I play in part because it could make cast triggers without mana, but now I'm trying to use Relic of Legends in a similar role, especially if I'm trying Displacer Kitten. I could do Kitten with Venser, Shaper Savant and Lotus Petal (as suggested above), but if the fourth piece is Jeskai Ascendancy, I could likely use Ephemeral Shields as the free spell in place of Lotus Petal, so that's a major bonus for the convoke version of the effect.

So I'm just going to go in circles connecting effects like that and see where I end up, and then have to think about cuts.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

It would be very interesting if all we Zedruu players posted our recent lists for comparison, reference, ideas, etc.

EDIT: This is mine. Almost all stealing/exchange and chaos stuff are gone. I play A LOT through spelltable and exchanging permanents on camera is a pain.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5575897#paper
Last edited by Sefir 11 months ago, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

That seems reasonable, but with the caveat that I do not recommend this list over any other. I haven't put in sufficient time either thinking through or testing changes to tell you if this is a particularly good iteration:
Greatest of All Time
Approximate Total Cost:

And one friend in particular prefers I play Warstorm Surge over fears I'll accidentally king-make (again, whoops) with Pandemonium, so I've hot swapped those as needed.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

Drafna, Founder of Lat-Nam could be a card with potential here! Not in lists that run both Coveted Jewel and MoM for obvious reasons, but in every other list, there are many artifacts that we can get advantage by bouncing and/or copying. And I am not talking just for etb triggers a la Precursor Golem or Knowledge Pool, but also by just creating extra stuff to donate.
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Post by indemidelo » 1 year ago

Hi fellow, my contribute will be very limited, given that I only made small changes to the manabase of the primer list: https://deckstats.net/decks/168392/2340 ... e-greatest
tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
1 Memnite
1 Dissipation Field
I was wondering why you re-include the memnite-field combo. Is it because there are new interactions with the single pieces from other more recent additions? Or just nostalgia?

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Ok, so... I was thinking about Displacer Kitten. Just thinking, haven't even sleaved the card yet, cause I like to theorize... and I sold myself on it. I mean obviously due credit to @Sefir, but I discovered something exceptionally stupid that Sefir's chaos-free list isn't going to stumble into: Possibility Storm combo.

As Sefir explained a few weeks ago, Venser, Shaper Savant, Displacer Kitten, and Lotus Petal (or any free noncreature spell) makes an infinite do-nothing loop. Casting the petal triggers kitten, kitten flickers Venser, Venser bounces Petal (the spell, not the permanent), and you're exactly where you started. But it makes infinite storm for Mind's Desire, infinite etbs for Pandemonium, or infinite triggers for Jeskai Ascendancy... but also infinite triggers of Possibility Storm.

Stacked properly, I can have Venser bounce the petal back to hand before Possibility Storm eats it, and then still get to cast an artifact out of the library. Which means I get every artifact out of my library for free. And I'm planning on playing Relic of Legends, which can tap Venser each iteration for mana. So with infinite mana, I can start bouncing other artifacts and cycling them through the hand and library and battlefield. An artifact cast from hand can flicker Venser to bounce someone else's permanent, and then go into the library to pull out a different artifact that also casts, and can bounce another artifact. Do that on a loop and I get to bounce everyone else's boards to nothing. Do that with a Knowledge Pool involved and I can exile all libraries, and then Mirror of Fate my deck back, and then Temple Bell everyone else to death in one tap. It's like Eye of the Storm/Mind's Desire/Mirror of Fate/Rest in Peace... it's an omni-combo that lets me do literally whatever I want. And I'm all for it.
indemidelo wrote:
1 year ago
I was wondering why you re-include the memnite-field combo. Is it because there are new interactions with the single pieces from other more recent additions? Or just nostalgia?
Mostly the latter. It was the first 4-piece combo in the deck and I kinda missed it.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Ok, so... I was thinking about Displacer Kitten. Just thinking, haven't even sleaved the card yet, cause I like to theorize... and I sold myself on it. I mean obviously due credit to @Sefir, but I discovered something exceptionally stupid that Sefir's chaos-free list isn't going to stumble into: Possibility Storm combo.

As Sefir explained a few weeks ago, Venser, Shaper Savant, Displacer Kitten, and Lotus Petal (or any free noncreature spell) makes an infinite do-nothing loop. Casting the petal triggers kitten, kitten flickers Venser, Venser bounces Petal (the spell, not the permanent), and you're exactly where you started. But it makes infinite storm for Mind's Desire, infinite etbs for Pandemonium, or infinite triggers for Jeskai Ascendancy... but also infinite triggers of Possibility Storm.

Stacked properly, I can have Venser bounce the petal back to hand before Possibility Storm eats it, and then still get to cast an artifact out of the library. Which means I get every artifact out of my library for free. And I'm planning on playing Relic of Legends, which can tap Venser each iteration for mana. So with infinite mana, I can start bouncing other artifacts and cycling them through the hand and library and battlefield. An artifact cast from hand can flicker Venser to bounce someone else's permanent, and then go into the library to pull out a different artifact that also casts, and can bounce another artifact. Do that on a loop and I get to bounce everyone else's boards to nothing. Do that with a Knowledge Pool involved and I can exile all libraries, and then Mirror of Fate my deck back, and then Temple Bell everyone else to death in one tap. It's like Eye of the Storm/Mind's Desire/Mirror of Fate/Rest in Peace... it's an omni-combo that lets me do literally whatever I want. And I'm all for it.
Nice one! You were looking for a Possibility Storm combo since ever! Nice kitty! And if you see that there is no interaction from your opponents, you can just speedfast into not doing any of the bouncing or Mirror of Fate stuff, just bump all your artifacts in play, create infinite mana with the Relic, use them on the Walking Archive and pass the turn for the win.
I would just like to mention that this Possibility Storm combo doesn't do much with nonartifact free spells, like Ephemeral Shields (or Flawless Maneuver that I personally prefer) apart from playing all Instances from the deck. The Petal (Or Chrome Mox, etc) is vital.
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Sefir wrote:
1 year ago
I would just like to mention that this Possibility Storm combo doesn't do much with nonartifact free spells, like Ephemeral Shields (or Flawless Maneuver that I personally prefer) apart from playing all Instances from the deck. The Petal (Or Chrome Mox, etc) is vital.
Disagree! Playing all the instants is a big deal, especially since it's very in our control. Possibility Storm casting is a may, leaving the option to put the instant back in the deck, and every cast out the other side triggers Displacer Kitten into Venser, Shaper Savant if we want the card back in hand. So we can Turnabout to guarantee some mana, play until we hit Arcbond on the stack out of the storm, respond by continuing the loop to hit Narset's Reversal on the Arcbond, Arcbond out of hand to get it back in the library, loop again until Arcbond pops back out for a second arcbonded creature, Jeskai Charm for lifelink, clear out every instant in the deck but Firestorm bouncing them to hand with Venser, cast Flawless Maneuver into the deck to cast out Firestorm targetting an arcbonded creature, then respond with an instant from hand to finally resolve a Flawless Maneuver out of the library for indestructible, combo kill the table with oops all instants.

That being said, that's gotta be actually free like Flawless Maneuver for that to work. Ephemeral Shields would need to add Jeskai Ascendancy, at which point the Possibility Storm doesn't even matter. There was a reason at some point why Flawless Maneuver wouldn't work for me, but I think that was Heliod related, so we should be good to go with that one now.
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Disagree! Playing all the instants is a big deal, especially since it's very in our control. Possibility Storm casting is a may, leaving the option to put the instant back in the deck, and every cast out the other side triggers Displacer Kitten into Venser, Shaper Savant if we want the card back in hand. So we can Turnabout to guarantee some mana, play until we hit Arcbond on the stack out of the storm, respond by continuing the loop to hit Narset's Reversal on the Arcbond, Arcbond out of hand to get it back in the library, loop again until Arcbond pops back out for a second arcbonded creature, Jeskai Charm for lifelink, clear out every instant in the deck but Firestorm bouncing them to hand with Venser, cast Flawless Maneuver into the deck to cast out Firestorm targetting an arcbonded creature, then respond with an instant from hand to finally resolve a Flawless Maneuver out of the library for indestructible, combo kill the table with oops all instants.

That being said, that's gotta be actually free like Flawless Maneuver for that to work. Ephemeral Shields would need to add Jeskai Ascendancy, at which point the Possibility Storm doesn't even matter. There was a reason at some point why Flawless Maneuver wouldn't work for me, but I think that was Heliod related, so we should be good to go with that one now.
Ah yes. It's been a while since I had Firestorm or Jeskai Charm in my lists. :)
Note that Maneuver is not free-free. You still need Zedruu (or.....another stolen commander. :grin: ) to be able to cast Maneuver for free, thus making it a 5-card combo. Mind you, even by using a truly free instant like, Sivvi's Valor you would still need another creature apart from Kitty and Venser. Because you would need 2 creatures with indestructible (or whatever), targeted by Arcbond and having lifelink. One of them will be the kitty, but the other CANNOT be Venser, since through the continuous flickering he would have lost the Arcbond and the lifelink (if we follow your line step by step). Bottom line, you want another creature for the combo, making it a 5-card one, either something like the beforementioned Sivvi's Valor (but only as an accelerator to bring Flawless Maneuver from the deck for free- on its own it just messes with our Arcbond) or the Maneuver that needs 100% Zedruu. Your Arcbond/Prevent damage spell targets should not include Venser himself.
Last edited by Sefir 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ihatemaryfisher » 1 year ago

My deck shifted away from crazy Eye of the Storm/Knowledge Pool/Possibility Storm/Barren Glory, because my meta hates it.

My new package of stuff revolves around Chance for Glory. Chance for Glory already enables Arcbond indestructible combos. Additional pieces include Angel's Grace, Discontinuity, Sudden Substitution, and Magosi, the Waterveil, and Trickbind, most of which slot into already-present combos.

In my meta, my biggest weaknesses are:
  • 1. Decks that ramp hard and use all their extra card draw. Archaeomancer's Map and Walking Atlas came in to al least keep up.
  • 2. Aggro decks that kill us fast. Usually I can politic my way out of this, but I added Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire, which also works with Arcbond, Brash Taunter, and Swans of Bryn Argoll.
  • 3. Group-slug decks. I lose to these more than anything else, just because I can't disincentivize them for targeting me when they deal damage indiscriminately. Haven't found a good solution besides encouraging my opponents to kill them faster, which feels suboptimal. Second Sunrise is in to recover from an artifact/enchantment boardwipe and also enable Mirror of Fate.
The card I want to experiment with is Volcano Hellion, which came up once in this thread. Volcano Hellion is a two-card infinite life combo with a lifelink-enabler, a three-card "kill target opponent" with a lifelink-enabler and brash taunter. Unfortunately, it's a three-card "win the game" combo with lifelink and Arcbond. I wish its text said "deals damage to you and ANOTHER target creature" because then the extra creature would be the fourth card. So I'm still thinking about that.

If I can't figure that out, my next goal is Wheel of Misfortune, and Intervention Pact stuff.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/MlHAUSuCuE-poZsE8WOveg
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

ihatemaryfisher wrote:
1 year ago
Additional pieces include Angel's Grace, Discontinuity, Sudden Substitution, and Magosi, the Waterveil, most of which slot into already-present combos.
I haven't forgotten about Magosi, I just haven't found yet the way I'd like to integrate it.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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jjjrrrgggnnn
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Post by jjjrrrgggnnn » 1 year ago

My turn now:

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/L5p53UItlkC5UJyniWmkpw

I'm not really bringing anything drastically new to the table, But I love my list being an echo chamber of all the hard work you all put in. Almost any time one of you discusses a new card, I'll throw it in my list and take it out for a spin for a game or three. I'm very happy riding the bandwagon of all your collective genius.

So, huge love to you all for keeping zedruu alive and kicking, still definitely my favourite deck to play.

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

I love how a lot of these cards are unique to this deck and can be spotted across different zedruu builds, but we all have different preferences on "indestructibility instant" of all things.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Man, every time I do a big restructure of this disc, I have to fight with myself over Mind Over Matter.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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indemidelo
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Post by indemidelo » 1 year ago

tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Man, every time I do a big restructure of this disc, I have to fight with myself over Mind Over Matter.
Several months ago, I bought a copy, sure that, sooner or later, I would have played it in this 100s. Could this be the time?

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

indemidelo wrote:
1 year ago
tstorm823 wrote:
1 year ago
Man, every time I do a big restructure of this disc, I have to fight with myself over Mind Over Matter.
Several months ago, I bought a copy, sure that, sooner or later, I would have played it in this 100s. Could this be the time?
The issue is having to cut everything that taps to draw and also Strionic Resonator.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Sefir
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Post by Sefir » 1 year ago

Personally, onced I got MoM, I never went back. The fact that I can't use Strionic Resonator hurts, but I got over it eventually.
MoM is by far the most powerful card one could add in the deck, BUT it also makes the deck somewhat...... too much turbocharged.
My playgroup knows that and, when I draw more than 10+cards in one turn and have 6+mana open, they usually just ask me "Do you have MoM?"
If the answer is yes, they usually scoop on the spot (and rightfully so, 9 times out of 10 this is game).

Are you willing to let the bunny die to embrace such power (and ofc many more combos)?
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Teneb, the Harvester AntiBlack Pestilence
Dakkon Blackblade Control
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain
Minsc, Beloved Ranger Win(nie)s
Thraximundar Zomblins
The Omenkeel Vehicles
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis Dredge/Reanimator
Hans Eriksson Smash

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