Veyran, Voice of Duality - Same spells, twice the slinging.

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

My first ever EDH deck was Jori En, Ruin Diver . It never flew that high. But always has been my pet deck. A few years ago I stumbled into @ISBPathfinder own Jori deck that then heavily influenced and changed my own deck. With STX a new wave of spellslinging payoff came with the magecraft ability and a big hitter in the command zone with Veyran, Voice of Duality herself, that will double the triggers from the casting of instants and sorceries. I then decided to retire my pal Jori En and have fun with a new toy.

The deck is pretty simple. Cast permanents that trigger when you cast an instant or sorcery, then cast cantrips and accrue value.
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As always I'm open and wanting deck advice and input I really do appreciate anyone who spares some time to help me build a better deck. I'm not a super experienced/good brewer and or pilot with that in mind the purpose of the deck is to have fun, it isnt to be the best possible strategy as I play in somewhat casual settings.

I have yet to catch up with MH2 spoilers so I havent touched that whole thing yet.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

Biggest suggestion is for you to try out some or all of the instant or sorcery based rituals.
They can work exceedingly well in a deck like this and can be fantastic with Underworld Breach and Past in Flames.

Another big thing to keep in mind with Magecraft as opposed to other triggers like say Niv-Mizzet, Parun's ability, is that it actually counts copied spells including storm copies.

Therefore, I'd be really tempted to go heavier into storm with this commander running cards like Grapeshot
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

duducrash wrote:
2 years ago
The deck is pretty simple. Cast permanents that trigger when you cast an instant or sorcery, then cast cantrips and accrue value.
Awwwwww yeah. You're talking my language.

From MH2 you can zero in on Dragon's Rage Channeler and Harmonic Prodigy for sure.

You could consider Runaway Steam-Kin and Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh // Chandra, Roaring Flame. Thing in the Ice // Awoken Horror maybe.

I like copying stuff here because of how veyran is worded and how interactive and blowout inducing they can be. Narset's Reversal, Reiterate, Reverberate, etc. Even narrower stuff like Increasing Vengeance to go with rituals is quite strong. Of note: if you go the ritual and copy spell route there's an infinite storm combo with Bonus Round, Turnabout, and Narset's Reversal you should be aware of.

Which leads to my next point: Fling and Chandra's Ignition seem hilarious with veyran and high storm counts. Even something like Slip Through Space or similar.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Thank both of you for you feedback it surely has helped me improve the deck!

RowanKeltizar wrote:
2 years ago
Biggest suggestion is for you to try out some or all of the instant or sorcery based rituals.
Yeah thats a pretty great idea. I totally overlooked that and have began to work on that!
RowanKeltizar wrote:
2 years ago
Therefore, I'd be really tempted to go heavier into storm with this commander running cards like Grapeshot
Storm does work great! Grapeshot is a great card that I've played and removed many times here. Do I got even beyond? Maybe Brain Freeze and Empty the Warrens are playable?
MeowZeDung wrote:
2 years ago
Awwwwww yeah. You're talking my language.

From MH2 you can zero in on Dragon's Rage Channeler and Harmonic Prodigy for sure.
It's a such fun concept! I'm excited about Harmonic Prodigy too! It's a pseudo-Veyran in the 99. nice to have definitely!. I think I may try Suspend as a removal spell? Not sure yet!
MeowZeDung wrote:
2 years ago
You could consider Runaway Steam-Kin and Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh // Chandra, Roaring Flame. Thing in the Ice // Awoken Horror maybe.
Yeah, I'm high on Steam-Kin but I think I would play instead of Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty If played, because I need more blue mana!

I don't know about baby Chandra, never thought of her. Have you played with her? she puts in work? I Don't run enough red spells to flip her consistently but it definitely could be done. Actually there is a really nice red based deck. Birgi, Steam-Kimm Storm-Kiln Artist and chandra + a bunch of burn +cantrips sounds fun.

I actually run Thing in the Ice // Awoken Horror I put it in the "Removal" section. because It's more or les a panic buttom
MeowZeDung wrote:
2 years ago
like copying stuff here because of how veyran is worded and how interactive and blowout inducing they can be
Yeah! Copying goes really hard with with Magecraft! I tried to avoid going infinite and and copying goes infinite really easy. That being said I think Bonus Round just as value might be too good to pass!


Thank you again for your return, here are some quick changes I made


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Post by narglfrob » 2 years ago

It's a bit of a different direction, but something to consider is a package of:
Zada, Hedron Grinder, Orvar, the All-Form, Goldspan Dragon (which I will collectively refer to as payoffs) and a number of 1cmc cantrips that target like Accelerate (which I will refer to as cantrip enablers).

I feel that this package has good interactions with the rest of the skeleton of your deck.
  • The cantrip enablers are cheap spells that trigger magecraft for you commander (and other cards) that replace themselves, helping fuel your main gameplan
  • The payoffs are doubled by Veyran
  • Your Murmuring Mystics and similar make your payoffs better (since many care about how many creatures you have in play)

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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

duducrash wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, I'm high on Steam-Kin but I think I would play instead of Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty If played, because I need more blue mana!
I suggested steam-kin as another red "mana dork" that I think would be good, but I think Birgi/Horn is better just because of the versatility. So, my $.02 would be that if you only run 1 of them, run Birgi. My experience with spellslinger/storm decks is that you are always wanting either 1.) mana or 2.) cards, and it really sucks when you have all the mana in the world and no cards or vice versa. Having access to either "mode" on one card is awesome and I've really appreciated Birgi/horn since it's been printed as a result. This is also what makes Jeska's Will so great. Sigh, I really ought to get a copy of that card.
duducrash wrote:
2 years ago
I don't know about baby Chandra, never thought of her. Have you played with her? she puts in work? I Don't run enough red spells to flip her consistently but it definitely could be done. Actually there is a really nice red based deck. Birgi, Steam-Kimm Storm-Kiln Artist and chandra + a bunch of burn +cantrips sounds fun.
I haven't played much with her, but what little I have has proven her to be a fickle beast. I suggested her because you've got a little bit of a pinger/burn sub-theme going with Thermo-Alchemist, Electrostatic Field, Guttersnipe, Firebrand Archer, etc. and as I mentioned before, veyran + fling effects or Chandra's Ignition seems fun.

Theoretically, you could morph the deck into a big damage burn deck around this theme with Torbran, Thane of Red Fell, Jaya, Venerated Firemage, Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and company. Flip Chandra would be right at home there. You definitely would be leaning more into red based spellslinger, as you mentioned, but they are definitely supporting it with new cards like the mana ones you mentioned and stuff like Galvanic Relay, Fiery Encore, and Spreading Insurrection.

All that said, it might just not be what you're looking to do.
duducrash wrote:
2 years ago
I tried to avoid going infinite and and copying goes infinite really easy. That being said I think Bonus Round just as value might be too good to pass!
Bonus Round is a sweet piece of cardboard. Dangerous, but sweet.

I can appreciate wanting to avoid combo, but I will still advocate for Turnabout since you're already running High Tide with Frantic Search and Snap to do the thingy. Turnabout is just such a beast of a card. It does SO much. Usually I'd be looking to mega ritual with it, but it's Sleep when you need it to be.

I recommend giving some thought to keeping Saheeli, Sublime Artificer over something like Deekah, Fractal Theorist. She's significantly cheaper and I think she often gets overlooked as "just" a servo factory when her -2 can be disgusting sometimes. In your deck, for example, she could turn a servo into a copy of Archmage Emeritus, Guttersnipe, or Primal Amulet // Primal Wellspring before you start spellslinging.

Edit because of a crosspost: Zada, Hedron Grinder packages are sweet. If you explore that route, don't neglect Fists of Flame. You've also got Goblin Recruiter and Goblin Matron to hook you up with zada and/or Guttersnipe, then Mirrorwing Dragon for redundancy and Sarkhan's Triumph to go get it. There's also the new Radiant Performer. Blue adds a lot to a Zada strat. Plenty of Shadow Rifts and Cerulean Wisps out there.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Thank you for your thoughts!
narglfrob wrote:
2 years ago
It's a bit of a different direction, but something to consider is a package of:
It is quite interesting, I don't have enough targeted cantrips to work as enablers though. Though Mystic Reflection seems sweet. Both here and in your overall idea too. Make new tokens come in as copy of the payoffs and get a big chain going
MeowZeDung wrote:
2 years ago
Theoretically, you could morph the deck into a big damage burn deck around this theme with Torbran, Thane of Red Fell
Yeah I toyed with Torbran back in Jori En and he was awesome in paper but somewhat dissapointing in actual games, the pinging theme definitely is there and in the right boards he would wreck havock
MeowZeDung wrote:
2 years ago
Turnabout is just such a beast of a card. It does SO much. Usually I'd be looking to mega ritual with it, but it's Sleep when you need it to be.
Yep, it doesnt have to go infinite and it is too much value. I'll definitely pick up a copy
MeowZeDung wrote:
2 years ago
I recommend giving some thought to keeping Saheeli, Sublime Artificer over something like Deekah, Fractal Theorist
You're right. I stuck with Deekah because she is new and has magecraft but Saheeli is definitely better. Metallurgic Summonings would be better placed than Deekah also. I'll swap Deeka for Saheeli.

Also will pick up

Bonus Round
Jeska's Will
Harmonic Prodigy
Fellwar Stone

Thinking of taking out

Disdainful Stroke
Mana Geyser
Shattering Spree
Corrupted Grafstone

Other cards cards that I keep thinking about are Blood Moon and Thousand-Year Storm both are amazing when they are good and Thousand-Year in particular works really well here. But I don't know if there is consitency. Other thing is, has Fall of the Titans has been outclassed by Crackle with Power ?

Edit Because I missed something

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

Veyran wants a really low curve. I actually played against my friend's Veyran deck and it was incredibly fast and strong. Within a couple turns he burned the table out with Guttersnipe because nobody had removal. 4 damage for every spell cast.

I would use Jeska's Will over Mana Geyser here, as well as the 2 cmc rituals. Free spells are really good here.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
2 years ago
I would use Jeska's Will over Mana Geyser here, as well as the 2 cmc rituals. Free spells are really good here.

Yeah! Jeska's Will / Turnabout and Mizzix's Mastery and Sorcerous Sight s are cards I plan on putting in but they arent avaliable in my LGS so im looking to trade before I go online

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Got a trade in that pushed me towards a few changes

got another trade coming in the mail and I'll upate later but its something like
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Cards i'm looking for right now are Harmonic Prodigy and Turnabout. Getting harder and harder to make cuts! I played the deck a bit and really liked how it played. Really low to the ground. I think Harmonic Prodigy is too good and I'm super excited ot have her in as a proto-commander.

I would love help with cuts!

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

I think I'll cut Blood Moon and Thousand-Year Storm . Storm is.... boring ot play against and way to often uncastable. specially with so few lands. Blood moon isn't doing anything right now. Back in the shop 5c decks were way too prevalent and I needed it, maybe it will make its return post pandemic.

Got 3 games in with this commander webcam thing, my first 3 with Veyran, Voice of Duality . lost 2 and won 1. One of the games I won I had the kill in hand. The game I won I had a crazy crazy turn right after my webcam went of for a minute, I was so anxious because I knew I had a crazy turn in store.

Things I learned : In a weird way, Veyran is Voltron-y. now I totally see the Fling route @MeowZeDung was talking about and might very well put it in. I'm happy with the deck, maybe I can find a spot for one or two lands though

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

I don't think Crackle with Power is that good, but maybe I'm wrong.

You have a lot of neat interaction in these colors. I would recommend giving the following a test run. You can always proxy to test.

Steal Enchantment - can steal some enchantments that would otherwise not be available in these colors. Izzet can have a hard time dealing with enchantments, so sometimes it's better just to to steal it.

Reality Ripple - can be a swiss army knife in that it can stop your opponent's degenerate synergies for a turn, or protect your own stuff from removal. I really like it.

Cyclonic Rift as removal goes, this is the best. Get one as long as it's legal.

Firestorm if you are drawing a lot of cards, this can be really efficient. I swapped it in place of lightning bolt, just because it can be a good spot removal early game, or a total blowout lategame. Don't underestimate the power of instant speed.

Extract I'm currently testing this in my playgroup. My group tends to run a lot of combos, so there is always something worth removing before it becomes a problem.

Chain of Vapor - this has been playing extremely well for me. Early game, people simply don't want to sacrifice lands, so it's just efficient removal. Lategame, you can usually play this against someone who still won't sacrifice lands or someone who will target something else relevant on the field. It's a very interesting card. And it's worth noting that unlike Snap this can target other types of permanents. Oh yeah, and you can target your own stuff in order to save it from the graveyard. Very flexible spell.

Scorched Earth - I've been really liking it. Having answers to lands can be really important in today's world. Plenty of lands out there that just need an answer similar to other powerful cards. There are other sorcery based land destruction cards, but this is my favorite. Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Ghost Quarter can also be used. However, outside of green, these cards become worse since we have no way to recur them and very few ways to get ahead of the curve in our land drops.

More counterspells might be something worth looking at. I would lump your counterspells into their own section just to see how many you have. Being izzet, you lack some of the raw power that green and black offer, so counterspells are one way to even the playing field.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Yeah I'm lacking interaction for sure. Recent cuts Abrade[/card and Spree may have been too much and am looking to bring at least Abrade back.

[Card]Reality Ripple
versatility is a big win for sure. Dodging removal, removing blocks, being the only one after a wipe. I'll look for it!

I'll separate counters from removal when I get some time to open arkidect on a desktop, sure its a better way to analyze my deck!

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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

I don't think you would have to warp the deck around a Fling/voltron plan. TBH, just Fling and Chandra's Ignition are probably enough. That way you don't win/wipe the board that way too often and it will feel spicier when you do!
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
2 years ago
and Chandra's Ignition
Yeah, Ingition feels like Mizzium Mortars 2, I think I'll look for one

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Update made!

In the OP I made changes to the formating, separating sections for counterspells, recursion and copy.

As for changes in the deck. I went a bit more into the copying subtheme

Outs.
Blood Moon has underperfomed lately. When I first build this deck as Jori En, Ruin Diver my meta had just way too many greedy 5 color decks, Najeela, the Blade-Blossom was everywhere. It helped me a bunch. But it hasnt been the same. Maybe it will come in again whenever I go back to my LGS.
Mountain is an easy swap for the Sulfur Falls Don't need much explanation.
Thousand-Year Storm Its way too often uncastable, and once its cast it creats long and unfun turns for other players. Back in Jori En, Ruin Diver Days I had some awesome wins with TYS and Fall of the Titans but I don't think I need it anymore.
Fall of the Titans It's not the finisher I need.
Past in Flames I like the recursion but it's a bit too much mana intensive with a deck that doesnt ramp that much. It's good that it is tutorable. It may come back in later.
Merchant Scroll I decided I'd rather go with Solve the Equation. It's 1 more but It is much more versatile.


Ins
Sulfur Falls A better dual land in place of a mountain.
Mizzix's Mastery It's a really good recursion piece. And since this deck can take advantage of the copy triggers its even better
Increasing Vengeance I decided to get a bit more into the copying stuff lately.
Solve the Equation I think it's a better tutor than Merchant Scroll that its just too narrow
Harmonic Prodigy It's baby Veyran, Voice of Duality. It will double most of my triggers.
Abrade. Good versatile removal I had taken out lately but found its way back in

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

33 lands seems low to me for this deck. Your average non-land cmc is 2.42 which is pretty low, however you don't have a ton of ramp or rituals. Yes, you have a lot of early game hand fixing effects, but I would feel more comfortable with 34 lands personally.

I would find copies of Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn and Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass. These are premium flip lands for izzet. I've gotten great use out of them. You can straight up just swap them in for basics.

I would run Careful Study in here if you can get your hands on one. It's a good card. Not quite as powerful as Faithless Looting but it's redundancy. If you are running recursion effects it can be really good.

Mizzium Mortars and Abrade are two cards that everyone runs, but I don't think are actually that great. I know you don't want to hit your own creatures, so I would maybe look at Aetherize or Curse of the Swine. However, there will be times when you really just want to nuke everything and for that Blasphemous Act is still the king. I also have gotten a lot of use out of Magmaquake and Chain Reaction.

Have you considered The Locust God. He's really pretty good at making chump blockers. Another thought would be Propaganda.

And like I said before, if you are drawing a lot of cards, Firestorm really can't be beat since it also hits players. If you can copy it while on the stack, that can actually be a win condition providing there are enough creatures on the field and you can discard enough cards. Discard 10 cards, hit 10 targets, and copy it twice. Should be gg in most situations.

Past in Flames is kind of part of the big ritual package which also includes Mana Geyser High Tide Jeska's Will (the best) and possibly Inner Fire. You get redundancy to past in flames with Underworld Breach. It can make for some pretty explosive turns, but there is a downside in that these cards aren't great early in the game.

Be aware that Mizzix's Mastery suffers from a few problems as well. One, it's also not great early game. You can't pay alternative casting costs with it, and three, like you mentioned with Thousand-Year Storm, it can be really tedius for your opponents to sit through all the spells.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
2 years ago
33 lands seems low to me for this deck. Your average non-land cmc is 2.42 which is pretty low, however you don't have a ton of ramp or rituals. Yes, you have a lot of early game hand fixing effects, but I would feel more comfortable with 34 lands personally.
Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah an exta land sounds sweet. I put an island for now but I'll try to grab a Training Center soon and replace.

I quite like Mizzium Mortars in this build since my creatures dodge it. Ive been thinkering with Immolating Gyre but I'm not sure

I've tried The Locust God and ran a bunch back when this was Jori En, Ruin Diver I just like it when Veyran, Voice of Duality actually has synergy with my payoffs.

I also cut Increasing Vengeance just underperfomed for me. double red isnt ideal and copying only my stuff just missed a bit.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

After a while with no new toys heres what i'm interested in

Dragon's Rage Channeler the price has settled and surveil is way too good. I might pick one up
Arcane Infusion goodstuff being repeatable. Veyran does love copies
Consider a better opt, i'm all in its exactly the card I want ot play

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

After a while Ive done some changes that inmho greatly improved the deck. My pc is broken right now so I i'll uodate the op eventually but heres the changes

In

Wash away
Galvanic iteration
Kessig flamebreather
Consider
Jeska's will
Stormcarved Coast
Training grounds

Out

Seething song
Vandalbladt
2x mountain
Docent of perfection
Crash trough
Thermo-alchemist


Really happy with where the deck js right now. I could use better countermagic and lands but im getting there

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

I consider myself sold on the treasure based rituals. The best is Unexpected Windfall but there is also Prismari Command and Visions of Ruin. Strike It Rich is also something to consider.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
2 years ago
I consider myself sold on the treasure based rituals. The best is Unexpected Windfall but there is also Prismari Command and Visions of Ruin. Strike It Rich is also something to consider.
I've considered some treasure ramp, specially Strike It Rich the one thing is that I'd like my stuff to work with veyran. so I changed for Storm-Kiln Artist and Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty that net my twice the goods with veyran, Storm-Kiln Artist also works with Harmonic Prodigy which is super nice.

I am way too deep in the Storm-Kiln Artist to be fair. I think it's easily a $10 card one command zone game away from breaking it all. It's too good

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Minor update.

Out - Ravenform

In- prismari command

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Any thoughts on Hullbreaker Horror here? It seems like it could work out well in this sort of deck.
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Any thoughts on Hullbreaker Horror here? It seems like it could work out well in this sort of deck.
It is a great card I somehow missed during spoiler season. The effect is 100% auto include, only thing that bothsrs me its 7 mana and I am running so low to the ground. But the effect might be too good to pass on! I'll pick up a copy and test for sure

Thanks!

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