Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

I have been thinking a lot about Chain of Vapor lately and since we are on the topic of underused cards I want to draw attention to it again. I think this card is actually very under-used. For all the reasons shared before it is probably one of the best in slot spells for this Commander because you can use it offensively and defensively for very little mana investment. The number one thing I worry about when playing my Gravecrawler is an exile effect when I don't have a sac outlet available to me. This is yet another "counterspell" in that scenario and many others. When I looked at the card I was blinded by thinking it was primarily for bouncing something an opponent has. And it does that extremely well too. I am just really humbled by never really giving this card the time of day and that is why I love this thread - learning about how everyone uses the cards available to them is very rewarding.

Another card I am thinking about is good old Reanimate - do you ever find that having three "mass reanimate" spells (living death, patriarch's bidding, zombie apocalypse) is overkill? Sometimes I end up drawing two and discard one, and sometimes I don't even need it, but a reanimate would be great to have when you just want to grab something specific from the GY. I am considering swapping out bidding for reanimate, or finding room for it elsewhere because this feels sacrilegious. Reanimate also triggers Prized Amalgam, coincidentally.

Also - I remember a lot of Animate Dead fans a while ago, revisiting that as an inclusion as well because of synergy with Sevinne's Reclamation and Intuition.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
Another card I am thinking about is good old Reanimate - do you ever find that having three "mass reanimate" spells (living death, patriarch's bidding, zombie apocalypse) is overkill? Sometimes I end up drawing two and discard one, and sometimes I don't even need it, but a reanimate would be great to have when you just want to grab something specific from the GY. I am considering swapping out bidding for reanimate, or finding room for it elsewhere because this feels sacrilegious. Reanimate also triggers Prized Amalgam, coincidentally.
I mostly skipped Reanimate because My CMC is so low that I'm rarely gonna ramp super hard off it, but it's probably playable as a secondary Dread Return for Intuition packages, and it can make a lot of things work. I think I'd probably cut Zombie Apocalypse first since 6 is more than 5, but I can definitely see the reasoning. I do think I'd want to be on Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt if I were to cut from 3 to 2 mass reanimates.

Reanimating Gary is pretty damn good though, truth be told. Yeah, with a discard outlet in the command zone, maybe reanimate does work?

I think the percentage of the time Reanimate is better than any random 1-2 drop zombie is pretty damn high, especially since it can let you bring back Varina, Lich Queen, acting as protection for her.

Gonna have to noodle hard on that one. Feel like I might like a Rot Hulk or some decent bomb option.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
Another card I am thinking about is good old Reanimate - do you ever find that having three "mass reanimate" spells (living death, patriarch's bidding, zombie apocalypse) is overkill? Sometimes I end up drawing two and discard one, and sometimes I don't even need it, but a reanimate would be great to have when you just want to grab something specific from the GY. I am considering swapping out bidding for reanimate, or finding room for it elsewhere because this feels sacrilegious. Reanimate also triggers Prized Amalgam, coincidentally.
I mostly skipped Reanimate because My CMC is so low that I'm rarely gonna ramp super hard off it, but it's probably playable as a secondary Dread Return for Intuition packages, and it can make a lot of things work. I think I'd probably cut Zombie Apocalypse first since 6 is more than 5, but I can definitely see the reasoning. I do think I'd want to be on Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt if I were to cut from 3 to 2 mass reanimates.

Reanimating Gary is pretty damn good though, truth be told. Yeah, with a discard outlet in the command zone, maybe reanimate does work?

I think the percentage of the time Reanimate is better than any random 1-2 drop zombie is pretty damn high, especially since it can let you bring back Varina, Lich Queen, acting as protection for her.

Gonna have to noodle hard on that one. Feel like I might like a Rot Hulk or some decent bomb option.
Reanimate just seems like another "best in slot" card that should be here but isn't really used at all.

Good question - if you could reanimate only one dude from your GY what is the most devastating option? Rot Hulk can be it's own patriarch's bidding and Balthor, the Defiled too. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed can protect and enable combos. Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant could use some more thinking maybe in light of all the new advancements in this archetype. Gravespawn Sovereign could be a lot of fun especially with an active stairwell lol. Sidisi, Undead Vizier should always be considered. God-Eternal Oketra does many things with these loops and is another value engine all itself. Those are all of the zombie things I can think of right now I would want. Not even thinking of non-zombie things that could go here.

Nevinyrral maybe needs to be explored as a sweeper/ reanimate target.

I keep messing with my list constantly lol. +1 Reanimate -1 Zombie Apocalypse feels really strong in my list. Also found room for the MDFC which fills that hole and also increases my T4 varina odds.
Last edited by plaganegra 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Rframpt » 1 year ago

Reanimate have been pretty good in my list. Though I am not really into very low curve many seem to advocate for. I do love my Zombies at all levels from 1-6 in mana cost. Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant is a very good bait target when you dumb it in your yard. Having many types of low cost reanimation spells from Reanimate, Animate Dead & Necromancy makes it very easy to dumb the high mana costed Zombies to setup for the next play.

Noxious Ghoul is another insane card when mass reanimating. Not only a getting a big board but also taking care of all other creatures that might get reanimated along when casting Living Death or Patriarch's Bidding

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
Reanimate just seems like another "best in slot" card that should be here but isn't really used at all.

Good question - if you could reanimate only one dude from your GY what is the most devastating option? Rot Hulk can be it's own patriarch's bidding and Balthor, the Defiled too. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed can protect and enable combos. Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant could use some more thinking maybe in light of all the new advancements in this archetype. Gravespawn Sovereign could be a lot of fun especially with an active stairwell lol. Sidisi, Undead Vizier should always be considered. God-Eternal Oketra does many things with these loops and is another value engine all itself. Those are all of the zombie things I can think of right now I would want. Not even thinking of non-zombie things that could go here.

Nevinyrral maybe needs to be explored as a sweeper/ reanimate target
Any of those are fantastic, and it's purely a meta call I htink. For my deck I'd be aiming it at Repository Skaab or Gray Merchant of Asphodel probably 99% of the time. Reanimating skaab to recover a mass reanimate is probably the most strictly powerful play.

I think for me if I added a fatty it'd be Sidisi, Undead Vizier or Rot Hulk - rot hulk is basically a mass reanimate on a zombie for my purposes (since what I want to do is reanimate all my combo pieces, and none of my combos take more than 3 creatures).

Wish there was a zombie that reanimated artifacts :P that might be good.

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

I went down to two mass reanimate spells; I dropped Patriarch's Bidding because sometimes opponents play tribal as well.

My list has three tutors, so I felt I could drop one mass reanimate spell.Even though I don't play the good tutors, my budget substitutes get the job done.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier is still in my list and reanimating her is always nice.

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

It's true that Reanimate is a real powerhouse and could a staple of any deck playing black. Basicaly it's "one mana, recast your commander". (I'm a huge fan of this kind of effects. I play Reanimate, Animate Dead and Necromancy in Yarok and it's stupidly strong). I love those cards because you can steal stuff from others at a cheap rate.

It demands little effort to slot it in.

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Post by devilcatz » 1 year ago

Seems like we are looking at more CEDH cards?

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

I had an interesting game thanks to Ashnod Altar.

I was able to tap all the fatties of my opponents thanks to it and Binding Mummy. Sacrifice a zombie to produce 2 mana, use 2 mana to create a token with Varina and repeat.

Then win the game with Haakon + Automaton + Wayward servant.

That was my first use of Ashnod Altar. I play with Varina since two years now and I had never considered that card. That was a huge mistake :D It will stick to my lsit forever.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Yeah altar plus Varina is insane. Altar skullclamp Varina is a nonsense engine.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Yeah altar plus Varina is insane. Altar skullclamp Varina is a nonsense engine.
Oh my! I never thought to do that! yeah that's nuts.

@devilcatz I don't believe in CEDH "cards" - as far as I am concerned there is no such thing. There are CEDH "decks" and maybe even CEDH "combos" (combos that are highly frowned upon outside of a competitive match such as demonic consultation - thassa's oracle). The lines can be blurry at times, but I am not sure it is helpful to categorize individual cards that way. Especially not reanimate, which is a card I have been playing in casual 60 card reanimation decks since just after I started playing magic (my favorite thing to do was reanimate a copy of bladewing the risen and get back another big dumb dragon lol). Context matters - I probably will be reanimating Varina most of the time, now that I have added the card into my deck. Or Snapcaster Mage to cast a removal spell.

What is the playstyle you like, and what was your favorite moment playing your zombie deck!? I want to know! Share your list! :)
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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Tell me if you agree:

Two-MV rocks are better the more two-colorless-mana generators played.

E.g. Maybe we should consider Mana Vault here as well.

If you agree, how many of these things do you think need to be run to justify running more two-MV rocks than just Arcane Signet?

Other fast mana seems to make two-MV rocks easier to stomach as well.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

I think the 2MV rocks are okay for midrange decks, but not too many of them. Maybe Arcane Signet + Talisman of Dominance + Talisman of Hierarchy. I don't think I would decide on running them based on running a bunch of colorless ramp. More often than not I think you just end up with a bunch of colorless mana you cannot use to play most of your stuff.

So I finally took the time to make my list in paper now that I think I am pretty settled on it. Looking forward to playing it a few times next Friday with the guys. (if you happen to look at my list the SB cards are things I need to locate still)....

As I was searching for cards to complete my list, I came across Village Rites. I looked at the card and though wow - this should probably be in my deck. It can counter an exile effect, mine an underperforming zombie for something better, find your 4th land, or get value out of unfavorable combat - all for one mana at instant speed. I think it has the edge over plumb the forbidden due to its raw efficiency, although both are very strong here. I took out Sensei's Divining Top for it, Top is so strong too but I don't really like playing it a lot as it makes turns take much longer.
Zombies ate my brains.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Tell me if you agree:

Two-MV rocks are better the more two-colorless-mana generators played.

E.g. Maybe we should consider Mana Vault here as well.

If you agree, how many of these things do you think need to be run to justify running more two-MV rocks than just Arcane Signet?

Other fast mana seems to make two-MV rocks easier to stomach as well.
When your commander requires WUB on turn 3-4 every game, making too much colorless mana is questionable. If the only time Arcane Signet / Talisman of Dominance really do much for you is when combined with a big colorless mana cheat, it's iffy.

Play Chrome Mox / Lotus Petal / Mox Diamond / Dark Ritual before a single mana rock. I would play Chrome Mox before Sol Ring in this deck.

I don't think Ancient Tomb belongs in this deck at all. We need WUB on turn 3 or 4, which means approximately 18-20 of each color. It doesn't even accelerate you into varina. So you wind up taking 4 life on turn 2 and 3 to play 3/4 drop zombies early, and the only real gain you got was slightly better zombies.

That said, if you're playing lots of card advantage sources and a lower zombie count, which I think is defensible, there are lines of play that are really decent off of big colorless mana. That means Fact or Fiction or Rhystic Study or even paying the upkeep cost of Mystic Remora, Smothering Tithe, etc.

But here's my two pence: If you're playing all that crap, why are you playing Varina? It's just a worse Tymna the Weaver deck.
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
As I was searching for cards to complete my list, I came across Village Rites. I looked at the card and though wow - this should probably be in my deck. It can counter an exile effect, mine an underperforming zombie for something better, find your 4th land, or get value out of unfavorable combat - all for one mana at instant speed. I think it has the edge over plumb the forbidden due to its raw efficiency, although both are very strong here. I took out Sensei's Divining Top for it, Top is so strong too but I don't really like playing it a lot as it makes turns take much longer.
Plumb is so much better. protects your entire board and scales significantly better, and can be cast without needing a sacrifice.

Personally I'll be sticking with Top in that slot though. But i'm a serious top fiend lol :)

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

Totaly agree with pokken's last post.

A Varina deck will never want a Mana Vault, an Ancient Tomb or even a 2 mana rock. Well, a low curve Varina deck trying to aim for the most optimized version won't ever want to run that stuff. Tomb and Vault are useless in our deck plan and mana rocks are a huge loss of tempo. We absolutely want an almost perfect mana base and only rocks costing zero, or rocks that don't make us loose tempo.

And agree too about Village Rites e's Rite[/card], a really bad Plumb the Forbidden in almost every scenario.

Talking about mana base. I think I'm now confident enough about playing stuff like the good old Counterspell. I mean, our mana base allows us to play Mana Drain. So why not just switch Arcane Denial for Counterspell for example ? I really don't like to give two cards to my opponent, even at the price of an easy to cast hard counter.

There is An offer you can't refuse too ? Giving 2 treasures is probably even worst than 2 cards. Giving the fact you allow your opponent to have instant access to ressources for casting another answer.

PS: I don't know if you play Swan Song ? I like it for costing only one blue. This one could be swapped for Counterspell maybe ?

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Reya wrote:
1 year ago
Talking about mana base. I think I'm now confident enough about playing stuff like the good old Counterspell. I mean, our mana base allows us to play Mana Drain. So why not just switch Arcane Denial for Counterspell for example ? I really don't like to give two cards to my opponent, even at the price of an easy to cast hard counter.

There is An offer you can't refuse too ? Giving 2 treasures is probably even worst than 2 cards. Giving the fact you allow your opponent to have instant access to ressources for casting another answer.

PS: I don't know if you play Swan Song ? I like it for costing only one blue. This one could be swapped for Counterspell maybe ?
So I don't think this deck can support Counterspell personally - mana drain is different because you go into it going "i'm gonna drain something this turn then untap and go off" rather than "i'm gonna use this for protecting my combo" -- at least, that's how I play it. It gives you that burst of mana you need to multispell and close it out.

I think if your meta is counter/removal heavy Swan Song and An Offer You Can't Refuse both make sense for combo defense.

I realize this is a controversial opinion but I have played thousands of games of EDH and I think Arcane Denial is a better card in non-cedh games. The upside it has of occasionally working to fix your hand (e.g. you can denial something, get an extra card and hopefully draw into land) plus the political upside of people not being *that* grumpy if you stop them from winning with it...I just think it's better.

Plus it has sequencing advantages. I typically have UU in my games, and I want to spend a blue in my turn, I can still keep denial up.

I think the counter/removal package is pretty mutable though, honestly, very good to tailor to your meta a little.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

Reya wrote:
1 year ago
And agree too about Village Rites, a really bad Plumb the Forbidden in almost every scenario.
Where it is significantly better is when you just want to use it with one creature. I am really only ever trying to protect gravecrawler, everything else is very very secondary.

I do see the point @pokken made and I did not realize you didn't need to sac to draw the first card (because I have never actually tried Plumb the Forbidden yet).

For one sac, though, village rites is pure efficiency. I do realize that is not going to be the best choice for everyone (and maybe not even me, I am playing around with the idea "noodling" if you will lol). I think, for me and my playstyle, I usually only have open 1 mana, if any mana at all, for the first 4-5 turns of the game unless I am flooded with ramp or my deck is pooping on me. That one mana is open either because I wasn't able to use it with the cards in my hand or for swan song or maybe an EOT entomb. Adding another 1cmc option to save a dude from exile is really valuable T4-5. After that, the card is probably just worse than plumb. It all depends on what stage of the game you want to skew towards in building your deck. I think drawing 2 off of 1 zombie and 1 mana is pretty good at any stage of the game to grease the wheels. Plumb is still useful, but not too good in the early stages of the game, and much much better in the mid-late stages of the game. Lots greasier.

All that to say, village rites is definitely a viable option and can be a much stronger choice over plumb depending on how you like to play your deck and what your goals are. Probably not for most people.

Random thought that just occurred to me - if you are using springleaf drum, the CIPT 1cmc zombies are much worse now.
Such as Dread Wanderer and "Lifetime" Pass Holder
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah I don't think there's a solved counter and removal suite, its going to depend on your meta. I can see Offer being good, or Miscast, Veto, a couple others too. Being off of some of the best stuff in the format makes the deck a lot cheaper and wide open for best in slot. I've been wondering how well Flusterstorm would perform but I don't have a spare so its a moot point.
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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

I've definitely used Arcane Denial as basically a 2 mana cantrip on several occasions.

Village Rites is occasionally better than Plumb, but is sometimes a dead card (nothing to sacrifice, or nothing you WANT to sac), whereas Plumb is never dead and has way more up side.

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Countering our own low-impact creature mid to late game with Arcane Denial to draw three cards is probably not the worst play ever given our ability to use the graveyard.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Countering our own low-impact creature mid to late game with Arcane Denial to draw three cards is probably not the worst play ever given our ability to use the graveyard.
can you believe in all the years I've been jamming that spell I think I have only done that once? It was *years* ago with Inalla, Archmage Ritualist and my mind since blanked on that option.

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Post by devilcatz » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Countering our own low-impact creature mid to late game with Arcane Denial to draw three cards is probably not the worst play ever given our ability to use the graveyard.
What an interesting use. I use An Offer You Can't Refuse for the same purpose in my cedh deck to get treasures for more storming.

Frantic Search is good for untapping Crypt of Agadeem and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx.

Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx: how good is it? I tend not to have the chance to use as the board would be cleared pretty fast.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

devilcatz wrote:
1 year ago
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx: how good is it? I tend not to have the chance to use as the board would be cleared pretty fast.
My deck is heavily biased toward black pips and I use both coffers and nykthos regularly (and @pzbw7z Crypt of Agadeem ) to get combo turn mana. Nykthos is a bit easier to set up.

A nice thing about nykthos is you can do a mass reanimate then have mana to combo after that sometimes an assload.
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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Sometimes Crypt of Agadeem does the work, sometimes Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx can do it.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

devilcatz wrote:
1 year ago
pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Countering our own low-impact creature mid to late game with Arcane Denial to draw three cards is probably not the worst play ever given our ability to use the graveyard.
What an interesting use. I use An Offer You Can't Refuse for the same purpose in my cedh deck to get treasures for more storming.

Frantic Search is good for untapping Crypt of Agadeem and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx.

Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx: how good is it? I tend not to have the chance to use as the board would be cleared pretty fast.
Oh thats neat, I hadn't thought of that with Frantic Search. Good card is good i guess.

Nykthos is frequently excellent for me. The plays pokken mentioned are common and easy, Its easily the best of the 3 burst lands we have on offer. Personally I put Crypt next and Coffers last. Its a bit closer there because each of the 2 black aspects have their pros and cons. Crypt enters tapped, Coffers won't tap for anything on its own. But yeah, of the three Nykthos is easily the one most worth running.
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