Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Coffers is definitely the worst of the three. It'll get a lot better if they ever print enemy color cycling and tango lands so we can go swampier with the manabase. That said, I've definitely Intuition'd to set up coffers+urborg before and it can be pretty good (sevinne's + coffers/urborg guarantees it).

Frantic Search is probably a card we should think bout playing. Free dig. I suspect it will outperform Fact or Fiction at a high rate.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Well, as it happens I'm already cutting Fact myself. Pretty sure 8ve got a spare search, and I think its probably worth the slot too.
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Coffers is definitely the worst of the three. It'll get a lot better if they ever print enemy color cycling and tango lands so we can go swampier with the manabase. That said, I've definitely Intuition'd to set up coffers+urborg before and it can be pretty good (sevinne's + coffers/urborg guarantees it).

Frantic Search is probably a card we should think bout playing. Free dig. I suspect it will outperform Fact or Fiction at a high rate.
I have used Frantic Search a few times in my deck and it works to fill your GY. It is almost free, but not, because it does net you -1 card since it does not replace itself. You can break that pretty easily by discarding things you want to be in the GY, but even still I am not sure it earns a slot for me anyway. I had it in and out of my recent list multiple times but ultimately I cut it for spells that generate card advantage more directly or help filter better (like ponder, brainstorm, and recently village rites). Frantic Search will probably not be very good at any point in the game if your deck isn't working as desired and also... if you have a mana ramping land you probably don't need to use it twice in one turn anyway. All in all it has been below average for me.

Side note - Crypt of Agadeem has been the best single land in my deck for a long time - requires virtually no effort to get a big payoff. When I was running Weathered Wayfarer it was always the card I went to get and it quickly outperforms cabal coffers in my deck (since I really pack the GY throughout the game).

Alternatively to an intuition pile for sevinne's reclamation / cabal coffers / urborg
You could go for sevinne's / crypt / nykthos and be in a much better spot most of the time if you really need a lot of mana to combo. (since you can use both lands to make a lot of mana and they both work independently of the other so it's kind of a catchall unless you have no creatures on the board or in the GY - and then you made the wrong intuition pile lol)

But that also makes me ask - why not just grab a cheaper combo and use that? I still do not see any reason to include coffers in Varina given the drastic downside of cabal coffers being pretty dead without urborg.
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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

So, do you think Cabal Coffers can but cut here ?

I often feel bad when I play it since you absolutely need at least 3 swamps to make it work. You find yourself in a difficult situation with a land that does not produce any mana by itself and that needs others lands to really work.

You need to setup things for Coffers to be operational. It's the opposite of Crypt of Agadeem and Nykthos, shrine to Nyx that just work by themselves with the way the deck works.

Maybe thinking of cutting Coffers is extreme, since when it works, it works crazy well.

PS: I see plaganegra already cutted Coffers and it seems to work pretty well without it.

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Post by devilcatz » 1 year ago

No coffers for me
Only crypt and Nythkos (maybe.. I nv really get to get a lot of devotion before a wipe takes place)

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

I think I will remove Field of the Dead and replace it by Nykthos. The game will be smoother since Shrine enters untapped and can produces a %$#% of mana.

Field of the dead it's not a necessity. It procudes only colorless and make you loose tempo. Maybe it's an aberration but producing only a body, after reaching 7 lands, could be something we can totaly avoid in our gameplan.

So the dream trio of lands will be Coffer, Shrine and Crypt.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago


Alternatively to an intuition pile for sevinne's reclamation / cabal coffers / urborg
You could go for sevinne's / crypt / nykthos and be in a much better spot most of the time if you really need a lot of mana to combo. (since you can use both lands to make a lot of mana and they both work independently of the other so it's kind of a catchall unless you have no creatures on the board or in the GY - and then you made the wrong intuition pile lol)

But that also makes me ask - why not just grab a cheaper combo and use that? I still do not see any reason to include coffers in Varina given the drastic downside of cabal coffers being pretty dead without urborg.
So the times I intuition for big mana are when I want to over interaction and I have the combo pieces online or available. Sometimes you need a burst of mana to power through interaction.

The example I can remember is was one where my plan was to cast two mass reanimations in a turn to win and it has been a bit of a drag of a game. The downside to crypt in intuition packages is you can't just bombs away right there because it enters tapped.

Going for three counterspells is another approach but it doesn't leave you as far ahead

The main thing that keeps me on coffers is that it isn't dependent on board or yard. It's nice to have a big mana option that doesn't need much.

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Post by Ardeyn » 1 year ago

Sorry to derail the current discussion about burst lands, but since I'm thinking of rebuilding my Varina list, I wondered why none of you run any on-board protection for the Commander? I was thinking more of Unsettled Mariner than Lightning Greaves, but both seem good here.
I don't know if this was discussed before, Facing 100+ pages of discussion is a bit intimidating.
But I'm glad to see that expert opinion is to not run any mana rocks really, but to rather focus on a tight curve.
I admit, my build is a bit different, trying for Second Sunrise loops instead of mass Reanimation spells, but similar enough I think.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Ardeyn wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry to derail the current discussion about burst lands, but since I'm thinking of rebuilding my Varina list, I wondered why none of you run any on-board protection for the Commander? I was thinking more of Unsettled Mariner than Lightning Greaves, but both seem good here.
I don't know if this was discussed before, Facing 100+ pages of discussion is a bit intimidating.
But I'm glad to see that expert opinion is to not run any mana rocks really, but to rather focus on a tight curve.
I admit, my build is a bit different, trying for Second Sunrise loops instead of mass Reanimation spells, but similar enough I think.

Ardeyn
We're in blue, and we're a sac outlet based deck, so my plan to protect Varina is:
1) counterspells
2) sac and reanimate

I don't have any room for duds like greaves (it's not a zombie and has no other use, doesn't beat sweepers)

If you're on Second Sunrise plan which is awesome mind you, play more sac outlets. I was on Faith's Reward and Second Sunrise initially and may go back since they fetch ramp you so hard.

Unsettled Mariner is a decent card to play but 1 is not much of a tax in commander in my experience.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Ardeyn wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry to derail the current discussion about burst lands, but since I'm thinking of rebuilding my Varina list, I wondered why none of you run any on-board protection for the Commander? I was thinking more of Unsettled Mariner than Lightning Greaves, but both seem good here.
I don't know if this was discussed before, Facing 100+ pages of discussion is a bit intimidating.
But I'm glad to see that expert opinion is to not run any mana rocks really, but to rather focus on a tight curve.
I admit, my build is a bit different, trying for Second Sunrise loops instead of mass Reanimation spells, but similar enough I think.

Ardeyn
We're in blue, and we're a sac outlet based deck, so my plan to protect Varina is:
1) counterspells
2) sac and reanimate

I don't have any room for duds like greaves (it's not a zombie and has no other use, doesn't beat sweepers)

If you're on Second Sunrise plan which is awesome mind you, play more sac outlets. I was on Faith's Reward and Second Sunrise initially and may go back since they fetch ramp you so hard.

Unsettled Mariner is a decent card to play but 1 is not much of a tax in commander in my experience.
I played mariner for a while and it was never relevant in any of my games and the casting cost is a little awkward since I always want black sources early game. Counterspells are how I protect, and if I want more protection I would use more counterspells or even some of the cheaper black spells that return a dude (a form of protection) like Kaya's Ghostform. I have never played greaves in Varina, but I think a counterspell would be better most of the time also. I don't really attack with her unless someone has an open board or I have evasion.

Probably just counterspells though haha. I'll echo that point here.
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Rframpt » 1 year ago

For me my protection is either Ratadrabik of Urborg or a mass reanimation spell/target Reanimation. Faith's Reward and Second Sunrise are both nice but I rarely have that much mana open to see them as viable options

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I should add Volrath's Stronghold and Unholy Grotto both work to recur Varina, should definitely be running one or the other depending on your zombie count. :)
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
I played mariner for a while and it was never relevant in any of my games and the casting cost is a little awkward since I always want black sources early game
generally speaking I think any 2 cmc zombie is fine to think about, like Wight of Precinct Six was in my list for a bit :P But you're probably right that mariner's cost is roughh, and I don't think the effect is strong enough. for ward 2 I'd think bout it.



re: the concept of on board protection in general -- additional thoughts

I think, in general, on board protection for things is a waste of time. Play cards that do things. Like I won't run that crap in almost any deck.

I'm not saying it's universally bad but man it's so much worse than people think it is. Think about like, drawing Phyrexian Ghoul instead, how much better that makes your game. It gives you a sac outlet for doing your dance, it protects Varina from theft effects and Mob Rule type effects as well.

There is almost always something better to be doing in commander than playing permanents that protect your other permanents. More Heroic Intervention and less Asceticism for me.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

I agree with that I dont run any such things either in any of my decks. It just depends on what you want to try out I guess. Kaya's is the best of those cards and I still don't run it but if I were going to test that out that is the card I would use ti experiment.
Zombies ate my brains.
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

Ardeyn wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry to derail the current discussion about burst lands, but since I'm thinking of rebuilding my Varina list, I wondered why none of you run any on-board protection for the Commander? I was thinking more of Unsettled Mariner than Lightning Greaves, but both seem good here.
I don't know if this was discussed before, Facing 100+ pages of discussion is a bit intimidating.
But I'm glad to see that expert opinion is to not run any mana rocks really, but to rather focus on a tight curve.
I admit, my build is a bit different, trying for Second Sunrise loops instead of mass Reanimation spells, but similar enough I think.

Ardeyn
would love to see your list and hear more about your style of deck :)
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah, I'll echo the above - only reason I ever run boots for the most part is for haste. We don't really need it here, so it doesn't get a look in.

As far as protection goes, I'm generally ok with losing Varina to the yard, we've got a couple ways to get her back if we need. There's always Animate Dead we can add in, she gets picked up by our mass reanimates, and generally by the time she's picked off I find the damage is often done. We don't need her in play to go off or even win the old fashioned way. We just need her to help us dig, and in that respect it's really just a matter of curving into her.

@Ardeyn I'd be keen to hear about your play patterns with Second Sunrise and variants. @pokken feel free to chime in too, I know you've played around with it. I like these for a number of reasons: they reuse our fetches and other disposables, they're cheaper than most of our reanimation, and most of them are instant speed. My suspicion is that you'd need a list that's capable of pivoting pretty quick and popping your boardstate at a moment's notice, but it could be fun to play around with. Do share your experiences.



In other news, some updates for my build:


Path was an easy cut for painlands, they're pretty great most of the time. Got an Underground River on the way too. Haakon I'm gonna try out and see if I like the lines it offers. I've goldfished a little and seems cool. Master fixes a little of the empty grip scenario I fear the most, although it doesn't go all the way there on it's own. I...can't EVER see casting it, but being a free discard every turn is pretty nice. Veto is one I've wanted in for a while; we want strong, efficient counters, but with everything else we're trying to do we can't really afford to have a full counter suite, so we need to be able to win a counter war efficiently, and this gives us a decent chance of that. I'm not too worried about the colors in the long run. And Vampiric I had lying around. It's better in this deck than any other I have put together at the moment. As for the cuts, the only thing I was on the fence about was Delay - it's a good card, I just think for what we want our counter suite to achieve Veto is better. Deluge I don't think is right here, despite still being one of the best wipes in the format - it will always hit our stuff first unless we're heavy on lords or have some other way of playing around it. If we're wiping, there's easier spells for us to use.

Moving forward, (and consider this the 'set review' per se) all I'm adding from BRO is Razorlash Transmogrant. I'm also going to try very hard to get a copy of Poxwalkers too at some point, but that may not happen (I won't be too mad if it doesn't, it's still weird to me to add other IP's into the mix, so it's a bit conflicting); our Warhammer stock here in NZ is yet to arrive, and it's less than has been ordered by all accounts. My LGS is cancelling orders based on first ordered first delivered, and I'm told he's not the only store doing it. Yay Hasbro!

Otherwise, there's very little realistically that I'm looking to add in the long run. Entomb and Lim-Dûl's Vault would be nice, Intuition if I ever get rich, and allied fetches whenever they're reprinted next, but at this point the list is hella fun as is.
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

The only other card that stood out to me for Varina from Brothers War was Hostile Negotiations

6 cards for 4 mana. Easy color cost. Instant Speed. Mind game included.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
The only other card that stood out to me for Varina from Brothers War was Hostile Negotiations

6 cards for 4 mana. Easy color cost. Instant Speed. Mind game included.
Yeah, I think this card is pretty damn good, it should likely replace Fact or Fiction just by virtue of digging one card further, and not costing u makes it something you can use to fix mana.

For me, I think i prefer Epiphany at the Drownyard still; the ability to do a 0/x or 1/x split is pretty nice plus scaling. If I make end game a mana and Epiphany for 14 or so at the end step I pretty much am guaranteed to win the game on untap. So having that on tap is worth it for me.

It's possible that it turns out that an optimal aggro-combo ~7/8 build is running a pretty extensive CA suite though. I could see running all of these things:
(Breakthrough is tech from Rielle, the Everwise but Varina can often perform similarly; if you have a mass reanimation spell, breakthrough lets you bin all the creatures plus your hand plus the top 4 of your library, and keep your one mass reanimate in hand for 1U which is pretty strong)



I am also starting to think about Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Thug as potential inclusions more and more. Being able to hit one of those off a Varina activation is pretty fire.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

Dredge is a very interesting idea. It feels like something you would want to be all in on to me, but what is your thinking about dredge?

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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
Dredge is a very interesting idea. It feels like something you would want to be all in on to me, but what is your thinking about dredge?

@pokken
I don't think there are quite critical mass of dredge cards but I think having a couple would be useful. You ideally dredge them with your Varina draw and then discard them again in the same motion which is fairly grotesque.

(Ol stinky makes a Varina draw add 5 extra cards to the bin)

The ability to buried alive for two or three dredge cards could really rapidly fill the bin.

Sometimes going for a combo specifically is contraindicated. Like you think an opponent has countermagic and can stuff you

Stink weed is nice cos it's a decently useful card on its own (deathtouch flier). Golgari thug has combo potentials too I think.

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Razorlash Transmogrant definitely seems indicated for my list.

Hostile Negotiations seems to be a very strong candidate.

Also, Repair and Recharge intrigues me; I have two high-value Enchantments and a Planeswalker with MV too high for Sevinne's Reclamation. In short, there are game winners that R&R can put into play that S.R. cannot. Moreover, a little redundancy for S.R. isn't the worst idea in the game. R&R is definitely something I'd test if it fell into my lap.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
Dredge is a very interesting idea. It feels like something you would want to be all in on to me, but what is your thinking about dredge?

@pokken
I don't think there are quite critical mass of dredge cards but I think having a couple would be useful. You ideally dredge them with your Varina draw and then discard them again in the same motion which is fairly grotesque.

(Ol stinky makes a Varina draw add 5 extra cards to the bin)

The ability to buried alive for two or three dredge cards could really rapidly fill the bin.

Sometimes going for a combo specifically is contraindicated. Like you think an opponent has countermagic and can stuff you

Stink weed is nice cos it's a decently useful card on its own (deathtouch flier). Golgari thug has combo potentials too I think.
I am not sure how often I want to just mill myself out that is moreso what I was thinking. I used to play Gisa & Geralf for a long time before switching to Varina and other than adding white - the self mill was one of the main reasons to move away from that commander. Varina is mostly better in every way.

When I say "all in" I mean moreseo the whole deck beuing built around GY synergies - so overvaluing things with flashback for example. Having more recursion engines. So when you are milling yourself you have a higher chance of hitting cards you want in the GY other than zombies.

Most lists have ~30 zombies. That is roughly only 1-2 zombies per dredge cycle. To make that better you would need to build a different Varina deck I think. This to me is really interesting to think about - because what does that deck actually look like?

By itself adding one dredge guy can definitely have some utility but I wouldn't add more than one probably because the need for it is really situational. Buried alive for dredge guys is not better than buried alive for combo guys, or for me buried alive for value auto-reanimator guys. I guess it's a different flavor to add that could do things?
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Post by ChocoDude » 1 year ago

Hypothetical: Many of us are on the low-curve Varina build these days including myself. However, I do miss a few of the higher CMC zombies like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed,Noxious Ghoul, Graveborn Muse, etc. Let's say you all decided you loved zombie decks SOOOO much that you wanted a second build, but capable of using the higher CMC zombos, which commander would you choose to build around (excluding Varina, of course)? The Scarab God? Wilhelt, the Rot Cleaver? Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant? Grimgrin, Corpse-Born? Another?

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

ChocoDude wrote:
1 year ago
Hypothetical: Many of us are on the low-curve Varina build these days including myself. However, I do miss a few of the higher CMC zombies like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed,Noxious Ghoul, Graveborn Muse, etc. Let's say you all decided you loved zombie decks SOOOO much that you wanted a second build, but capable of using the higher CMC zombos, which commander would you choose to build around (excluding Varina, of course)? The Scarab God? Wilhelt, the Rot Cleaver? Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant? Grimgrin, Corpse-Born? Another?
I'd make Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tormod, the Desecrator zombie token landfall with Field of the Dead and Cryptolith Rite / Earthcraft for endgame ramp. This build goes bananas with fetches from the yard triggering tormod, which seems really fun to me. Intuition *and* Realms Uncharted, :chefskiss:

Or very possibly Sidisi, Brood Tyrant self mill full on dredgepocalypse? I dunno.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

ChocoDude wrote:
1 year ago
Hypothetical: Many of us are on the low-curve Varina build these days including myself. However, I do miss a few of the higher CMC zombies like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed,Noxious Ghoul, Graveborn Muse, etc. Let's say you all decided you loved zombie decks SOOOO much that you wanted a second build, but capable of using the higher CMC zombos, which commander would you choose to build around (excluding Varina, of course)? The Scarab God? Wilhelt, the Rot Cleaver? Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant? Grimgrin, Corpse-Born? Another?
I'm probably on The Scarab God for this. It's a bit grindier and slower but it's a strong card. Otherwise, I'd look at Sedris, the Traitor King as a way to beat your curve.
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Post by Gamazson » 1 year ago

A higher curve means more reanimation. Run Tormod, the Desecrator & Kraum, Ludevic's Opus for some payoff. Start some Gravespawn Sovereign + Intruder Alarm shenanigans.

Edit: Ooops missed pokken's post.

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