Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Jwelou wrote:
1 year ago
Hey guys, long time lurker of this thread. I've been playing Varina for a few years now, and this thread has been quite helpful in fine-tuning my deck. Just recently, I stumbled upon the 'group slug' discard/windfall strategy, and this is the direction I'd like to continue to take it. This deck is tuned for more competitive playgroups FYI:

https://scryfall.com/@Jwelou/decks/d43d ... l&with=usd

I used to play a lot more zombie cards (basically a pure tribal deck), but since she makes her own zombie tokens, I'm finding you only need a few zombies in the early game to get her engine online. So I cut some of the fluff to add in a bunch of fatties and more single-target reanimation. (I know some of you guys consider this a flavor-fail; please forgive me!)

The strategy is simple: play small zombies early game in anticipation of a turn 3 or 4 Varina, while attacking my opponents' hand sizes and discarding my fatties. (Creatures like Rotting Rats, Miasmic Mummy and Sibsig Icebreakers are brilliant because they contribute to all three strategies at once!) Then, once everyone is in topdeck mode, I can pull ahead slowly with my draw effects and swarm the board with Varina's token production ability.

I'm also playing the Narset/Notion Thief combo with Windfall effects, ripped from red wheel decks. There's also synergy there with Anvil of Bogardan.

Any thoughts? Any other cards I may have missed that contribute to the strategy? (Besides Chains of Mephistopheles; that one's still a bit above my budget. lol)
Chains of Mephistopheles would actually seem arguably bad in Varina - and man! has that thing gone up in the last few years!. I will maintain that I don't play it because it's not good - although self-mill isn't necessarily terrible in Varina - not because it's nearly $1600.

Tags:

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6281
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 1 year ago

@Jwelou i think that the sevinnes phyrexian altar combo is still better than most things you can do with varina. Ashnods altar too is such a strong synergy with varinas ability.

If you're looking to go hard you should likely not play notion thief in your deck since the advantage varina has in competitive is playing combo pieces no one else can use. People praetors grasping your cards or draking your notion thief is bad.

The ashnods skullclamp combo with varina of 1: draw two (build your own ad naus) is very cedh playable at the fringes

You should be playing dark ritual and culling the weak as well.

Intuition for sevinnes gravecrawler and phyrexian altar is very underrated. It wins off 3 or 5 mana after an untap and doesn't die to creature removal. It does require another piece but usually fairly easy

Haakon is too slow for competitive probably? But it is pretty mana efficient with buried alive too.


I would consider playing dig through time in cedh wheel varina and 100% dread return.

Intuition for dread return and two fatties is also very very good in cedh varina.

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
You should be playing dark ritual and culling the weak as well.
Cabal Ritual too?

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6281
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
You should be playing dark ritual and culling the weak as well.
Cabal Ritual too?
Maybe? I like the 1 cmc ones better. Depends tho.

User avatar
Jwelou
Posts: 11
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Jwelou » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Chains of Mephistopheles would actually seem arguably bad in Varina - and man! has that thing gone up in the last few years!. I will maintain that I don't play it because it's not good - although self-mill isn't necessarily terrible in Varina - not because it's nearly $1600.
Very solid point. I hadn't considered that Chains turns Varina's ability into discard-draw-discard - almost certainly wiping my hand out. Might just have to proxy it and try it out. Still could be worth it to lock my opponents out of having a hand. 🤔
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
@Jwelou i think that the sevinnes phyrexian altar combo is still better than most things you can do with varina. Ashnods altar too is such a strong synergy with varinas ability.
I was running Phyrexian Altar until just recently. I cut it because I never found much use for it outside of a combo kill, and I can win other ways. I think it really shines in a deck with multiple infinite lines available, such as Gravecrawler + Pitiless Plunderer for infinite mana, Gravecrawler + Headless Rider for infinite tokens, Haakon + Foulmire Knight + Wayward Servant for infinite damage, etc. Since I don't run any of those other pieces anymore, I cut it. I'm never really starved for the extra mana, so its only use would be to get under exile effects.

It's still in my maybeboard and I'll probably test it with Sevinne's Reclamation now that I finally own Intuition.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
If you're looking to go hard you should likely not play notion thief in your deck since the advantage varina has in competitive is playing combo pieces no one else can use. People praetors grasping your cards or draking your notion thief is bad.
Very solid point. I'll cut him and stick with Narset, Parter of Veils.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
The ashnods skullclamp combo with varina of 1: draw two (build your own ad naus) is very cedh playable at the fringes
It is a good combo but it's hard to fit those two artifacts in the deck. Plus I always have something absurd out like Teferi's Ageless Insight or Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur or Kindred Discovery or Bone Miser drawing me a million cards.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Haakon is too slow for competitive probably? But it is pretty mana efficient with buried alive too.
I never liked him because a)the knight targets are extremely limited and mostly subpar (best one is probably Midnight Reaper, but he only works when nontokens die and my board is full of tokens and nonzombies usually) and b)anytime I had him in the grave I had better things to do with 3 mana.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I would consider playing dig through time in cedh wheel varina and 100% dread return.
Dig is a card I played for years, had to cut it recently because you can only jam so much goodstuff lol. You always have food for it but again, my build draws an absurd amount of cards already.

If I find space for a delve card, I'd honestly want to test out Temporal Trespass. Has anyone here tried it out yet?
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Intuition for dread return and two fatties is also very very good in cedh varina.
I'm trying to fit Dread Return in too... but the other reanimation spells have their own perks. They're honestly all so good. Animate Dead and Dance of the Dead are insanely cheap and can be repeated with Sun Titan. Reanimate is my favorite because it's a 1-drop. Victimize I just got on, it's so crazy to sac a token for two Praetors or Sun Titan & Bone Miser or any other wacky combination. Super busted card...

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Would combo-oriented cEDH-aspiring Varina want Silence and/or similar effects? It's a card I see in some other Esper lists, but those lists also have Doomsday. I must admit I have a yearning to figure out a Doomsday pile that would work for Varina. :)

One wonders if Peer into the Abyss with extra turn spells wouldn't be fun. The B rituals and the altars could make it cast-able.

What would really be clever is working out Morality Shift with a view to seriously mass-reanimate. Maybe Emergence Zone could help.

User avatar
Jwelou
Posts: 11
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Jwelou » 1 year ago

If you go the Doomsday route, it's gotta be Thassa's Oracle, right? Stick her and a Phyrexian Altar combo in your pile. The best part about Doomsday with Varina is you can easily crack the pile in combat by attacking with the appropriate number of creatures. Once you've drawn your whole deck, you play Altar, then Thoracle (saccing zombies if you need the mana). If she's countered, you simply cast Gravecrawler and Wayward Servant (sac zombies again if you need mana) and combo off.

Not my preferred playstyle (Thoracle combo is too simple for my taste), but could be really easy to pull off. Even if someone has removal for Thoracle, you should still have one blue devotion from Varina, so it's counterspell or bust.

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Thassa's Oracle or Laboratory Maniac is the common Doomsday win-con for Esper lists, but I wouldn't do that for Varina; Thoracle is the first thing that would be targetted by Praetor's Grasp and it's just way too far off theme. I would have to have a Zombie-specific combo line.

Varina can crack the pile, but it's not as reliable as Prosper's Final Fortune, into Jeska's Will for the rest of the pile. A draw card might be needed.

The real problem is most of the combo's are at least three cards, but it's probably not that tough to work out, I've just never taken the time as I don't know for sure I even want to drag Varina down that route; I quite enjoy the mid-range play of my current list, even if it's not terribly competitive.

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 3984
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

I think the main issue with Varina in cedh is theres just better options. That doesn't make her unplayable, but a lot of what she does Tymna does better, and in the same colors you can get a clone of her from the command zone too.

Personally I really like the lines we have anyway. For what its worth I have nothing against Thoracle, I just find it less interesting than what we currently do personally.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

User avatar
Eburon
Posts: 169
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Boone, NC

Post by Eburon » 1 year ago

I agree with @toctheyounger here. Varina is not optimal in cEDH and better suited to the playstyle most subscribe to here focused on mass reanimation.

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Doubl ... xian+Altar

Well, well, look what just dropped for Double Masters 2!


User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6281
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I'll probably pick up an imperial seal too. Uncommonly good in varina.

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I'll probably pick up an imperial seal too. Uncommonly good in varina.
Pre-sale price is only $99!

It's heavily played in Prosper and now that you mention it, it does seem good in Varina. I hope it drops a little bit when the cards get out, but who knows?

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6281
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Depends a lot on if mana crypt is in the set. It always suppresses values a lot.

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Depends a lot on if mana crypt is in the set. It always suppresses values a lot.
Mana Vault is, but Mana Crypt was in the first Double Masters two years ago. I doubt we will get so lucky.

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 3984
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah good reprints so far. I'll see where Seal drops to before I commit to it I think. I've just picked up a vamp tutor that I'm not sure where to put, so doubling up on a comparable card without a dedicated slot seems silly.

Personally I hope we don't get Crypt. I'd rather see the value spread with quality reprints through the set. I can think of a ton of stuff that needs it, and I'd rather not see the value sitting in one or two chase cards. I don't think we will see it again, but you never know I guess.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

Arebennian
Posts: 100
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Arebennian » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I'll probably pick up an imperial seal too. Uncommonly good in varina.
You don't seem to be running Vampiric Tutor. Isn't Seal worse?

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6281
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Arebennian wrote:
1 year ago
You don't seem to be running Vampiric Tutor. Isn't Seal worse?
I…yep. Probably should fix that.

User avatar
Eburon
Posts: 169
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Boone, NC

Post by Eburon » 1 year ago

Honestly, I think Imperial Seal at $99 is a pretty good deal. I think that will creep back up quickly (Mana Crypt is a good comparison).

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Eburon wrote:
1 year ago
Honestly, I think Imperial Seal at $99 is a pretty good deal. I think that will creep back up quickly (Mana Crypt is a good comparison).
Relative to what it has cost in the past, yes. Relative to it's actual in-game value, no - Vampiric Tutor is about one-third of that and clearly just better. But, while Imperial Seal may dip in the short run, it will probably trend back up after a while. It's not as generally useful as Mana Crypt by a large margin, but the Double Masters release will probably not satisfy the demand in the long run.

User avatar
RedCheese
Posts: 372
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

Been so long since the last time i played Commander that i don't know the most optimal play with Varinna deck which remainged unchanged ever since? Is dumping your zombies for mass reanimation still the way to go or should go more aggro using cheaper zombies?
Last edited by RedCheese 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Eburon
Posts: 169
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Boone, NC

Post by Eburon » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Eburon wrote:
1 year ago
Honestly, I think Imperial Seal at $99 is a pretty good deal. I think that will creep back up quickly (Mana Crypt is a good comparison).
Relative to what it has cost in the past, yes. Relative to it's actual in-game value, no - Vampiric Tutor is about one-third of that and clearly just better. But, while Imperial Seal may dip in the short run, it will probably trend back up after a while. It's not as generally useful as Mana Crypt by a large margin, but the Double Masters release will probably not satisfy the demand in the long run.
I agree that Vampiric Tutor is much better. My comment is more in the context of it's monetary value over time.

User avatar
pzbw7z
Posts: 690
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
Been so long since the last time i played Commander that i don't know the most optimal play with Varinna deck which remainged unchanged ever since? Is dumping your zombies for mass reanimation still the way to go or should go more aggro using cheaper zombies?
Living Death is still my primary win-con.

User avatar
Eburon
Posts: 169
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Boone, NC

Post by Eburon » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
Been so long since the last time i played Commander that i don't know the most optimal play with Varinna deck which remainged unchanged ever since? Is dumping your zombies for mass reanimation still the way to go or should go more aggro using cheaper zombies?
Living Death is still my primary win-con.
Same here, but I have been trying to drop my curve so I can get more out Varina's looting ability. Basically, I try to get some early beats in to fuel my GY, then I want to start recurring things to finish it out.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”