Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

I've liked him personally. His EOT draw has dug me out a few times and his token generation has been good too. The decayed tokens are middling but great with an altar. I don't think he's any better than any of the other good zombie pieces here, but I think he deserves his place in the list.

Conversely, I've not used Amalgam once. I've actually got some updates to make, and just to spoil one of them Amalgam isn't in my 99 anymore. I don't think ill miss him tbh.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Amalgam is definitely questionable. :). I've liked it. Totally punked a bog once and it's gonna be hard to get me off it. But it's definitely very situational.

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Post by Falkenbach » 1 year ago

Hes great when you have instant speed recurssion in the deck.. but i could only find two worth running Necromancy and Apprentice Necromancer all others are to heavly costed maybe Makeshift Mannequin ..

Yet most of you guys changed to the low curve mass reanimation gameplan :)

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah, the low curve has been solid for me. No less fun, and a lot more versatile. It is less of a grindy shell and leverages early board presence in favor of power down the line, but I've not had it bite me yet.

Apprentice is great but I don't know that I'd go much further than it for instant speed recursion. There's also Body Launderer now too. Sac at instant speed and you're gold, plus it fills your yard. Ultimately though its just too many hoops to jump through for something that the mass reanimation does anyway. Just...not at instant speed. I guess there's Emergence Zone if you want to stretch the land base that far. Its not a bad card by any stretch, I just don't know if it gets there in Esper.
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pzbw7z
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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

I saw an interesting card on FB today: Pact of the Serpent. X would have to be at least three for it to feel good so it's probably not good enough. Painful Truths is probably better, but Pact could occasionally be a bomb!

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Post by Eburon » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Does anyone actually like Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver in the 99? I've been quite disappointed. I think he's going to get the hook soon.
Personally, I like Wilhelt. His performance can vary from game to game, but overall he synergizes pretty well with the deck.

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Post by Falkenbach » 1 year ago

I am actually curious on how many sac outlets everyone runs in their decks. I run 3-5
Carrion Feeder
Ashnod's Altar
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
Plumb the Forbidden
Empty the Laboratory (no instant speed)
phyrexian tower and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

Any of you run different ones or more? (Phyrexian altar is the obvious other one which i personally dont wanna run)

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Falkenbach wrote:
1 year ago
I am actually curious on how many sac outlets everyone runs in their decks. I run 3-5
Carrion Feeder
Ashnod's Altar
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
Plumb the Forbidden
Empty the Laboratory (no instant speed)
phyrexian tower and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

Any of you run different ones or more? (Phyrexian altar is the obvious other one which i personally dont wanna run)
Good question.

Carrion feeder
Ashnods altar
Phyrexian altar
Phyrexian ghoul
Nantuko husk
* phyrexian tower
* plumb the forbidden
* skullclamp

I have a lot fewer than I thought. Maybe need to squeeze grimgrin back in.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
I saw an interesting card on FB today: Pact of the Serpent. X would have to be at least three for it to feel good so it's probably not good enough. Painful Truths is probably better, but Pact could occasionally be a bomb!
I think the deck already functions well when we have a board state, and struggles when we don't, except in the sense that it can be easy to get too low on cards in hand to keep much with Varina, but drawing even a couple of cards helps there. This looks like a card that mostly doesn't work when we need it to.
Eburon wrote:
1 year ago
pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Does anyone actually like Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver in the 99? I've been quite disappointed. I think he's going to get the hook soon.
Personally, I like Wilhelt. His performance can vary from game to game, but overall he synergizes pretty well with the deck.
I like Wilhelt. It's wrath protection, draw, and some advantage tied to stuff we're doing all the time anyway.
Falkenbach wrote:
1 year ago
I am actually curious on how many sac outlets everyone runs in their decks. I run 3-5
Carrion Feeder
Ashnod's Altar
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
Plumb the Forbidden
Empty the Laboratory (no instant speed)
phyrexian tower and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

Any of you run different ones or more? (Phyrexian altar is the obvious other one which i personally dont wanna run)
Don't forget High Market.

I run the two lands, Carrion, Phyrexian Altar, and Empty the Lab. If I were leaning more into combo I'd up that count a bit, and I keep wanting to fit in Nantuko, but can't ever find a slot for it.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

I'm on the two altars, Tower, Feeder and Plumb. I keep wanting to find the Husk and Ghoul but I don't have time to dig through chaff for them and my LGS doesn't have them cataloged on their site.

I haven't noticed a significant need for more sac outlets in all fairness, but I do kind of want these to hand anyway.
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Post by Falkenbach » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Falkenbach wrote:
1 year ago
I am actually curious on how many sac outlets everyone runs in their decks. I run 3-5
Carrion Feeder
Ashnod's Altar
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
Plumb the Forbidden
Empty the Laboratory (no instant speed)
phyrexian tower and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

Any of you run different ones or more? (Phyrexian altar is the obvious other one which i personally dont wanna run)
Good question.

Carrion feeder
Ashnods altar
Phyrexian altar
Phyrexian ghoul
Nantuko husk
* phyrexian tower
* plumb the forbidden
* skullclamp

I have a lot fewer than I thought. Maybe need to squeeze grimgrin back in.
is a real powerhouse. And worked pit pretty well for me. Aldo I think hes more for a slower meta

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pzbw7z
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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Does anyone run any self-mill? I've occasionally wondered about it. One card in particular that I sort of want to like is Codex Shredder. The return-to-hand is awfully expensive, but it could work once in a blue moon.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Does anyone run any self-mill? I've occasionally wondered about it. One card in particular that I sort of want to like is Codex Shredder. The return-to-hand is awfully expensive, but it could work once in a blue moon.
I run some that is also zombies. I think only Stitcher's Supplier right now.

If there were dredge zombies in our colors I'd run them. Don't think there are.

Epiphany and fof count in a lot of lists too.

Generally stitchers supplier grossly over performs. One drop that bins 6 cards and dies to skullclamp.

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Post by Zombo » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Does anyone run any self-mill? I've occasionally wondered about it. One card in particular that I sort of want to like is Codex Shredder. The return-to-hand is awfully expensive, but it could work once in a blue moon.
My build is focused on mass reanimation and I am currently running: Altar of Dementia; Ashiok, Dream Render; Court of Cunning; Liliana Untouched by Death and Death's Majesty. (Also looking for a copy of Glimpse the Unthinkable, now that is cheap, for just 2 manas at instant speed you have a graveyard again). I used Mesmeric Orb but it gives too much graveyard to opponents. I also just get a Tombstone Stairwell so I like more and more the self milling.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Seconding the dredge zombie request, that would be disgusting. Even if Stinkweed Imp were made a zombie id be in. Card is actually pretty strong at dredge 5 with pseudo deathtouch.

I'm generally happy to let my commander do the milling personally. I prefer to have a bit more control over what sees the yard so that I can kill two birds with one stone and sculpt hand at the same time. That said I think the connive mechanic is quite strong too, its just a bit disappointing that there really aren't many viable options for Varina. Lethal Scheme seems very good but its the best of the bunch where we're concerned, unless you're going off tribe for a bird.
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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

My deck is pitifully slow so I'm struggling to see what to do with it. I think I want early card draw, but I might just need ramp, i.e. rituals, to get the Varina engine spinning.

Since Living Death is the best card in the deck, self-mill is intriguing and I run a couple of pieces, Stitcher's Supplier and Liliana, Untouched by Death are good cards, but nothing else really appeals.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
My deck is pitifully slow so I'm struggling to see what to do with it. I think I want early card draw, but I might just need ramp, i.e. rituals, to get the Varina engine spinning.

Since Living Death is the best card in the deck, self-mill is intriguing and I run a couple of pieces, Stitcher's Supplier and Liliana, Untouched by Death are good cards, but nothing else really appeals.
The key to getting the Varina engine flowing is having critical mass of 1 and 2 cmc spells you want to cast on curve. Ideally zombies.

I am starting to eyeball Diregraf Ghoul thats how bad I'm getting lol.


The curve of 1 2 3 Varina is almost unstoppable

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah agreed. Its a serious tempo advantage backed by hand sculpting. Rituals early are like, ok, but you burn through cards in your hand just to get a board presence and leave yourself without gas for the mid to late game. Not only that because you're using your cards for temporary acceleration they don't replace themselves, where zombies do. So long as you can swing you can see more cards with any zombies that are low to the ground.

Honeslty if early game getting the wheels going is the problem I strongly advocate for low to the ground zombies of the best quality you can find. It really is the best start you can get here.
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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

The big-mana spells in my current list wouldn't benefit from rituals and there's really not much point in casting Varina early. Moreover, her casting cost is a bit awkward with four different pips; Jeweled Lotus or Dark Ritual would speed her up only a turn and not the amount that would occur with a 2RB commander, for example.

A turn-two or turn-three Ad Nauseam on the other hand, would be gas but Ad Naus would require changes; my deck currently has a staggering 181 total mana value. Several spells are really cheaper than advertised, but Ad Naus doesn't care that Twisted Abomination is normally just a two-mana effect; it would have to go, along with Beseech the Queen and a few others. Peer into the Abyss would stock the graveyard and perhaps find a win-con - it really never fails in Prosper although I did bungle it once :laughing: - but I haven't tested with it in Varina. Without rituals or crazy ramp, there's not much chance of casting anything else after burning seven on a sorcery. Still, filling the graveyard alone might be worthwhile.

One thing for sure that should go back is Epiphany at the Drownyard, I think. I just don't want to cut anything! I certainly don't want to cut creatures; I feel I'm a little low now. I don't want to cut interaction or reanimation spells. I previously cut two rocks, I'm thinking that may have been a mistake. I'm just not sure.

I probably should cut Rooftop Storm and maybe Tombstone Stairwell - gasp!, I know, I'm not going to, yet - but R.S. is such a bomb and Stairwell should be one too. So far, the only good result with Stairwell I've had still didn't pull out a win. I had Corpse Knight and Vengeful Dead and Phyrexian Altar in play. I got it all together and it just wasn't enough! Bummer.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah I have tested Peer and it's never felt good. Its a great card in the right place but this is not that place. I've tried goldfishing a bit with Ad Naus in the list but haven't really seen it come up enough to try out for solid analysis. And for what its worth my current total mana value is 157, which will probably drop a little further when I've got time to make some planned changes. That said I think even if your curve supports Ad Naus you're still going to run into the 'I don't run dockside' issue, where we don't have quite the reliable mana to main phase it or add it on to existing play lines - you'll be taking a turn off from spells to cast it a lot of the time. Some of the burst lands could help but they're not perfect.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Dark Ritual is actively worse than Diregraf Ghoul a sizable percentage of the time.

@pzbw7z Try to get that 1 drop count up to 10 and see what it does to your consistency. I see a 1 cmc zombie in my opener almost every hand and if not a Ponder that sets up a 2-3 curve out. :)

The other build for Varina I could see being effective is trying to sweep the board before casting her. This build might benefit from a few mana rocks or something. But ultimately I think this approach is worse because you have to wait a turn to take advantage.

The approach of guaranteeing loot 2 gain 2 when varina hits and then steamrolling from there is I am convinced the best way to build Varina for moderate power high consistency "75%" play :)

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Thanks for the replies folks.
I shall have to ponder - yeah, pun intended - things.

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Does anyone have any regard for Folk Hero? Only triggering once a turn is a bummer, but what can one expect from a two-MV enchantment? If Varina could take it in the zone, I think I'd be on it.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Does anyone have any regard for Folk Hero? Only triggering once a turn is a bummer, but what can one expect from a two-MV enchantment? If Varina could take it in the zone, I think I'd be on it.
I think its fine in the right place but that place isn't here. Ideally you want a tribe that has flash so you can reliably trigger it outside of your turn. So, like, fairies maybe. For us I think its a pretty tough proposition to include for draw. There are a lot of better options.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

For me like...a no zombie slot needs to be Kindred Discovery or
Land Tax level. Or a removal spell.

I do have a small query somewhat related.

I have been considering ways to deal with enemy aggro lately. I got absolutely roasted by an arcades wall deck full of fliers and counterspells. To be fair the player basically full on targeted me and then lost both times but I have seen the same issue otherwise.

I'm thinking about maybe adding Wonder as an honorary zombie possibly along with a Entomb package. Have people had good luck there?

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