Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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Ardeyn
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Post by Ardeyn » 1 year ago

Thank you for the kind responses. I would absolutely appreciate any feedback and you guys helping with fine tuning the list. :)

I don't have any budget limits, really. I won't go out and buy a Bazaar of Baghdad or anything in that price category. But having played almost constantly since Invasion, I have plenty of high end cards already. Also, I'm fortunate enough that every once in while I can afford to splurge a bit if I really want a card.
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
Hey I was always very curious about the white cards that return things. How have you liked it so far?

If you are looking for some more sac outlets I would definitely grab a copy of ashnod's altar and altar of dementia that were just reprinted and you can also add nantuko husk and phyrexian ghoul - these cards would probably amplify your strategy quite a bit!

I love containment construct, but in your deck how often do you get to use it? I had it in my deck for a while and it was a nice non-zombie source of card advantage as long as I had a bunch of other lower-cmc zombies to support it. I definitely think you want to increase your zombie count slightly.

What is on your maybeboard that you currently have access to?
I really like the white instant return cards and what they bring to the deck; they are good proactively, looping creatures and/or lands. Also sometimes they provide some nice insurance; though keeping up four mana for Faith's Reward isn't easy. Unfortunately Cosmic Intervention and Brought Back don't allow for the same kinds of crazy, as one is delayed till end of turn and the other just gets two permanents.

The other altars are definitely on my radar. I just haven't included them (yet) for lack of space, though I do have them. The other two zombie sac outlets I hadn't considered.
I guess, the question is as always: What do you cut?

The Containment Construct usually lets me play a land and sometimes also a zombie that was discarded. It provides some nice value but it certainly is no MVP.
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
[...]

This deck is doing some neat stuff man, I like it. There's a neat little synergy there between your Sunrise package, Zuran Orb and Lich's Mastery. That's kinda gross and I love it. Oh and Curse of the Restless Dead is pretty busted in that little synergy web too. Very cool, I'm glad someone found a way to break that card!

It's hard to tell what your budget is here with some of your inclusions but it seems like Academy Rector might just be worth breaking your tribe for. You've got a few more costly enchantments that it'd probably be nice to be able to cheat in from time to time.

As far as 'real' draw goes, how would something like Read the Runes work out for you? It's massively budget but it doubles as a Zuran effect if you're in need, and/or triggers your Miser/Feast of Sanity too. As well, it can get rid of problem permanents for you, the one that's come up in this thread before is Kindred Discovery - great while you're wanting the draw, terrible if you're trying to win, you just deck yourself instead. At any rate its probably better than Careful Consideration here in my opinion, just for having versatility and doing other things you already want to do.

I dunno about the rest of the thread readers but if you're into it I'd be keen to help fine tune the list and really make it hum. We could probably put our heads together and make it pretty nasty if you're into the feedback and let us know what you're specifically wanting to aim at.
Thanks for the compliment; and also for pointing out Read the Runes, which is some nice flexibility and an easy swap with Careful Consideration.
I guess, Academy Rector should really be in the deack, especially if we can up the number of sac outlets.

All the little interwoven synergies were what drove me to this build of the deck - and the flavor of using the Lich Queen with Lich's Mastery. ;)
The main question is, if it can support all these moving and interlocking pieces of
1. Second Sunrise Loops
2. Discard Synergies
3. Haakon as a value and combo piece
4. Lich's Mastery
I think this would be my priority. Though I'm open to anything.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
My favorite little easter egg I didn't notice is the Zuran Orb / Mystic Sanctuary / Second Sunrise loops. That's pretty gross :) You can easily go infinite with that if you have a thing that draws you a card on ETB/LTB too.
That's one reason why Silent Clearing is in the deck. Though it probably needs more ways to draw off this loop.
The ruling you uncovered about needing three islands to stay in play is really a speed bump. I probably should move my revised duals to this deck to increase the island count without reducing the number of black and white sources. Is there a way to get lands into play faster than one per turn in esper? I really like Planar Birth for this for its synergy with Varina's discard here.
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
That's disgusting and I love it. Honestly, I think this deck could really be degenerate as hell. I'd love to help tweak it.
:evil: Thanks! :grin:
I'd love your input.

So the maybeboard is now: What could be cut for these and are they worthwhile?

Changes locked in for now:
+ Read the Runes // - Careful Consideration

I'm really looking forward to discussing this further.

Ardeyn
"A single spark of passion can change a man forever."

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Because cosmic intervention can do two trigger sets per cast it's usually good enough :) it's reaaaaaaal good with fetchlands.

And it beats a lot of grave hate.

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Because cosmic intervention can do two trigger sets per cast it's usually good enough :) it's reaaaaaaal good with fetchlands.

And it beats a lot of grave hate.
How Cosmic Intervention allow us to do two sets of triggers per cast ? Am I missing something 🤨 ?

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Reya wrote:
1 year ago
How Cosmic Intervention allow us to do two sets of triggers per cast ? Am I missing something 🤨 ?
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic
Cast Cosmic Intervention main phase
sac all your guys, replacement with CI
end step: they return
sac them again, replacement with CI
next end player's endstep they come back again

I've garyed more than one table out that way.



additional things that are super nice about CI is you do not have to commit to it. You cast it, and if it resolves you can go off. If it gets countered, you can hold pat. With second sunrise/faith's reward, you gotta sac everything first and then go to war over it, so you must have counter backup.

The sequencing of foretell allowing you to keep up mana for both countermagic *and* a foretold CI but not losing the mana if you don't cast it, is super nice--think of it as a piggy bank :) Way more mana efficient than Faith's Reward from a sequencing perspective.

The interaction of fetchlands making it at least as good as Explosive Vegetation most of the time (and often much better) is truly ridiculous.

The combo with Living Death is also pretty great, if you don't yet have a sac outlet; cast Cosmic Intervention then Living Death and you get all your sac'd dudes back at the end step, then if you got a sac outlet you chain the entire team again :P

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Snipped for length


In my opinion your best synergies are Sunrise soap, Lich and Haakon. To be fair thought that last I haven't run long enough to tell you how viable it is in your shell. It seems decent with the right support, but it seems like it needs an efficient way to entomb it and supporting cards, and hood ways to loop for a payoff. Over time law of averages says that we will probably see more zombie knights over time though so it will probably become more reliable.

I think our best bet initially is to expand your zombie suite with some good efficient additions and drop your curve by saying goodbye to the cavaliers and the construct, maybe the changeling spells too. I don't think you necessarily need to lower your curve but we could get some cool stuff in there anyway and still achieve that most likely.

The discard thing my concern is these don't get caught by your recursion. Theres some great stuff there with the Miser and such but I don't know if you're limiting the value you can get from your loops by leaning into discard. Thats just my initial impression though, I could be wrong.

What do the rest of you guys think about overarching synergies? To me it feels like we could probably keep most of it but maybe not all 4 subthemes. Admittedly I am a sucker for Lich vibes, and if you can land it it can be pretty insane. But its high risk, high reward so I could understand dropping it.

I also wonder if its worth running a few more ways to find Sunrise and variants. I think the more zombies you get in the list the less you need but if you had a spare Mystical Tutor it probably wouldn't go astray.

As far as getting extra land into play the list is scant for Esper. Walking Atlas will do it, Archaeomancer's Map can but it won't get you ahead, and then there's Terrain Generator. Other than that were out of luck.
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Reya wrote:
1 year ago
How Cosmic Intervention allow us to do two sets of triggers per cast ? Am I missing something 🤨 ?
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic
Cast Cosmic Intervention main phase
sac all your guys, replacement with CI
end step: they return
sac them again, replacement with CI
next end player's endstep they come back again

I've garyed more than one table out that way.
Holy crapoly

It took much mental gymnastics and thought to understand what this means exactly. At first I was scratching my head so much I almost lost all my hair.

This is absolutely disgusting. Adding Cosmic Intervention to my deck immediately.

Please note though no "death" triggers will trigger at all since cards are exiled as a replacement. All ETBs work though (like Gary).

Absolutely nuts. That is why I love this thread so much. Constantly learning new things in here!!

@pokken what are your thoughts on otherworldly gaze? Out of all the cards I was looking at this one seems to hold a lot of water. See 6 cards for 3 mana at instant speed with flashback and can trigger poxwalkers EOT. Since the cards go into the GY and not back into the library the fact that this spell does not "replace itself" like a ponder should be fully mitigated in this deck with the emphasis on filling the GY. Also considering the flashback and dig 6 vs the normal 3. This feels like a slam dunk from all angles...
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Reya wrote:
1 year ago
How Cosmic Intervention allow us to do two sets of triggers per cast ? Am I missing something 🤨 ?
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic
Cast Cosmic Intervention main phase
sac all your guys, replacement with CI
end step: they return
sac them again, replacement with CI
next end player's endstep they come back again

I've garyed more than one table out that way.
Holy crapoly

It took much mental gymnastics and thought to understand what this means exactly. At first I was scratching my head so much I almost lost all my hair.

This is absolutely disgusting. Adding Cosmic Intervention to my deck immediately.

Please note though no "death" triggers will trigger at all since cards are exiled as a replacement. All ETBs work though (like Gary).

Absolutely nuts. That is why I love this thread so much. Constantly learning new things in here!!

@pokken what are your thoughts on otherworldly gaze? Out of all the cards I was looking at this one seems to hold a lot of water. See 6 cards for 3 mana at instant speed with flashback and can trigger poxwalkers EOT. Since the cards go into the GY and not back into the library the fact that this spell does not "replace itself" like a ponder should be fully mitigated in this deck with the emphasis on filling the GY. Also considering the flashback and dig 6 vs the normal 3. This feels like a slam dunk from all angles...
Yeah Intervention by rights seems like a strict upgrade to Patriarch's Bidding if it works as pokken describes. It also means we can, like, super ramp with fetches over the course of a turn.
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago


Cast Cosmic Intervention main phase
sac all your guys, replacement with CI
end step: they return
sac them again, replacement with CI
next end player's endstep they come back again

I've garyed more than one table out that way.
Holy crapoly

It took much mental gymnastics and thought to understand what this means exactly. At first I was scratching my head so much I almost lost all my hair.

This is absolutely disgusting. Adding Cosmic Intervention to my deck immediately.

Please note though no "death" triggers will trigger at all since cards are exiled as a replacement. All ETBs work though (like Gary).

Absolutely nuts. That is why I love this thread so much. Constantly learning new things in here!!

@pokken what are your thoughts on otherworldly gaze? Out of all the cards I was looking at this one seems to hold a lot of water. See 6 cards for 3 mana at instant speed with flashback and can trigger poxwalkers EOT. Since the cards go into the GY and not back into the library the fact that this spell does not "replace itself" like a ponder should be fully mitigated in this deck with the emphasis on filling the GY. Also considering the flashback and dig 6 vs the normal 3. This feels like a slam dunk from all angles...
Yeah Intervention by rights seems like a strict upgrade to Patriarch's Bidding if it works as pokken describes. It also means we can, like, super ramp with fetches over the course of a turn.
I think both cards function in really different ways so I am not sure I would compare them directly like that. Although I get your point where Cosmic intervention can win you the game in the same way but feels much more busted while doing it. You just need to have a filthy ETB on the table instead of in the GY for it to work and it notably doesn't loop the same way bidding would with repository skaab because of the timing restriction EOT. Surprisingly though, I think it does still loop though just strangely over each turn multiple times (with an active altar)? rofl this is insanity it is breaking my brain!

The synergy with fetching twice off your fetches is the same kind of thing I was thinking when I added the card directly into my deck in place of dread return which feels so much more powerful in that slot. But again, different uses. What an embarrassment of riches.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

I think maybe I was thinking in terms of asymmetric vs symmetric effects, costing less and being instant speed. They're not directly comparable, I know, I just think of Bidding as likely the weakest reanimation spell in the build now.

That said Unmaking and Void Rend are a bit pricey for me too for single target, and I probably don't need both. I'm sure there's space somewhere lol.
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Post by Rframpt » 1 year ago

Do remember that with Cosmic Intervention if you foretell it you have to wait till another turn to cast it for its foretell cost. Foretell specifically says cast it on a later turn, so you can't cast it immediately.

With the addition of poxwalker we could go and look back og foretell cards. As if you cast them for their foretell cost can bring poxwalker back from the graveyard

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Rframpt wrote:
1 year ago
Do remember that with Cosmic Intervention if you foretell it you have to wait till another turn to cast it for its foretell cost. Foretell specifically says cast it on a later turn, so you can't cast it immediately.

With the addition of poxwalker we could go and look back og foretell cards. As if you cast them for their foretell cost can bring poxwalker back from the graveyard
Mystic Reflection is neat. There's Haunting Voyage too but honeslty i think its pretty overcosted personally.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

@plaganegra i think otherworldly gaze seems reasonable. Good way to hit your land drops. Flashback plays nice with tormod and pox.

It sure does crank away at the yard.

Also re:cosmic

I am positive it works the way noted. It is a shame about death triggers but thankfully our best drain effects are etb. Vengeful dead is by far the worst.

The looping with repository skaab is usually close enough. I've landed that a couple times and it never takes more than a turn cycle.

The main downside to CI is unlike bidding it doesn't work on stuff that isn't already on board. But the upside of being way cheaper and ramping makes it correct to me.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Rframpt wrote:
1 year ago
Do remember that with Cosmic Intervention if you foretell it you have to wait till another turn to cast it for its foretell cost. Foretell specifically says cast it on a later turn, so you can't cast it immediately.

With the addition of poxwalker we could go and look back og foretell cards. As if you cast them for their foretell cost can bring poxwalker back from the graveyard
Mystic Reflection is neat. There's Haunting Voyage too but honeslty i think its pretty overcosted personally.
Rise of the dread marn has re-entered the conversation!
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Ardeyn » 1 year ago

You definitely have me convinced of Cosmic Intervention now. I didn't realize you could bring things back twice in a turn. Overall the interactions are sweet.
Also, the synergy of the Sunrise cards with fetchlands do provide some ramp and a means to get more lands into play than one per turn. So one more effect like this wil be awesome.
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Snipped for length


In my opinion your best synergies are Sunrise soap, Lich and Haakon. To be fair thought that last I haven't run long enough to tell you how viable it is in your shell. It seems decent with the right support, but it seems like it needs an efficient way to entomb it and supporting cards, and hood ways to loop for a payoff. Over time law of averages says that we will probably see more zombie knights over time though so it will probably become more reliable.

I think our best bet initially is to expand your zombie suite with some good efficient additions and drop your curve by saying goodbye to the cavaliers and the construct, maybe the changeling spells too. I don't think you necessarily need to lower your curve but we could get some cool stuff in there anyway and still achieve that most likely.

The discard thing my concern is these don't get caught by your recursion. Theres some great stuff there with the Miser and such but I don't know if you're limiting the value you can get from your loops by leaning into discard. Thats just my initial impression though, I could be wrong.

What do the rest of you guys think about overarching synergies? To me it feels like we could probably keep most of it but maybe not all 4 subthemes. Admittedly I am a sucker for Lich vibes, and if you can land it it can be pretty insane. But its high risk, high reward so I could understand dropping it.

I also wonder if its worth running a few more ways to find Sunrise and variants. I think the more zombies you get in the list the less you need but if you had a spare Mystical Tutor it probably wouldn't go astray.

As far as getting extra land into play the list is scant for Esper. Walking Atlas will do it, Archaeomancer's Map can but it won't get you ahead, and then there's Terrain Generator. Other than that were out of luck.
Actually, the discard synergies mainly try to maximize what Varina herself does with but a few payoffs such as Bone Miser, Feast of Sanity, Archfiend of Ifnir and Dying to Serve. Though one could include Master of Death, Containment Construct, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Planar Birth and the reanimation cards in this category as well.
Feast, Lich's Mastery and a free discard outlet such as Putrid Imp will draw your library and deal damage equal to the number of cards in your library divided as you choose to any targets - for whatever it's worth.

Which zombies would be the best I'm missing currently?
I guess I totally forgot about Gray Merchant of Asphodel, which should absolutely be in the deck regarding the potentiel with Sunrises and Living Death.

I think I'll cut Rooftop Storm and Ghostly Pilferer for Intervention and Gary.

Mystical Tutor is already in the list. But I was thinking of adding Diabolic Intent. Has anyone tested it in their build?

---

On a more general note regarding the discussion of Foretell cards: is it worth to go deep(er) on these just for the one card Poxwalkers?
I'd understand adding more Flashback cards - especially something such as Otherworldly Gaze for its potential to fill the graveyard - as they are inherently nice with Varina's discard on top of the Poxwalkers. But maybe I'm too fixated on the discard anyways. And probably underestimate the Walkers.

Ardeyn
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I think Diabolic Intent should likely be in, esp. given Varina's ability to fuel it. I'm stopping at my current tutor count for a bit :P

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

Ardeyn wrote:
1 year ago
On a more general note regarding the discussion of Foretell cards: is it worth to go deep(er) on these just for the one card Poxwalkers?
I'd understand adding more Flashback cards - especially something such as Otherworldly Gaze for its potential to fill the graveyard - as they are inherently nice with Varina's discard on top of the Poxwalkers. But maybe I'm too fixated on the discard anyways. And probably underestimate the Walkers.
I think no unless they tick multiple boxes. The only two I am considering to add to my deck are cosmic intervention and rise of the dread marn. Poxwalkers likely has enough support with just gravecrawler, haakon, stromgald scourge stuff, and Varina herself to warrent inclusion if you like free zombies or combo loops. Mystic Reflection is a cool card that can fit, but I don't have the space for it even a little. It doesn't do anything I need very well although it is a very viable inclusion if you like the unique effect.

That being said I think packing in cards that are multi-synergistic whenever possible with minimal cost is my preferred way to EDH. It makes the deck more unique and focused giving the way it plays more style. It also happens to be more powerful if done properly I think.

I used to play rise of the dread marn a while ago in Varina and it was actually extremely good since once you foretell it the cost is only B - making it super duper easy to flood the board with zombies. Now that my deck has several more ways to kill and bring back it's own creatures it is so much better now than when I used it in the past. It can create it's own army regardless of anyone else wiping the board. Also, this is a super cheap way to "refuel" your board/hand after a wipe since you can just cast Varina and swing with your giant zombie army on your very next combat step. To me it was a no-brainer to put it back into my list after realizing the added upside of triggering poxwalkers (which is just a silver lining here).

Otherworldly Gaze, the more and more I think about it, is just amazing. It can dig you 6 deep, you don't have to shuffle anything away at all as it fills your GY, you can fix multiple draws, it can be discarded now and used later, AND lastly it also happens to trigger poxwalkers. So much value stapled to this overlooked spell it is crazy.

I guess my very hot take is that in Varina, Otherworldly Gaze is often much better than Ponder, Brainstorm, and even, dare I say, Sensei's Divining Top because it actually accelerates the gameplan more AND fixes your hand at the same time with replay-ability and synergistic upsides.

Edit - Also, Re: tutors
I am intentionally not running any of the generic tutors or the super powerful alternatives. I want my deck to just play out.
If I were running Tutors I would add them in this order: Diabolic Intent is something you should pick up soon if you don't have a copy imho. Fits super well in Varina and is more thematic and palatable than demonic and vampiric if you care about such things
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

No way. Ponder and brainstorm hit your land right now not next turn :) diff between missing a land drop and not is huge.

Top and preordain I think are arguably worse than gaze.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

That is a valid point but the situations where that would screw you are if you draw this specific card instead of your 3-4th land which would be super duper improbable. Most of the time you just mitigate that by casting the spell ahead of needing the land. Math I think favors Gaze here in most situations when the GY matters and you want to see as many cards as possible. I'd like to double down on the hot take! Lol
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago

Cast Cosmic Intervention main phase
sac all your guys, replacement with CI
end step: they return
sac them again, replacement with CI
next end player's endstep they come back again

I've garyed more than one table out that way.
Oh I never thought about using that card this way. I will include it in my list from now ! I removed Anguished Unmaking and replaced it by Cosmic Intervention :grin:

3 mana for a spot removal is too much in my list.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
That is a valid point but the situations where that would screw you are if you draw this specific card instead of your 3-4th land which would be super duper improbable. Most of the time you just mitigate that by casting the spell ahead of needing the land. Math I think favors Gaze here in most situations when the GY matters and you want to see as many cards as possible. I'd like to double down on the hot take! Lol
Ponder/Brainstorm also get you the best card in your top 3 right now which can be game winning - it's hard to overstate how powerful these effects are in a well constructed deck. Keeping 2 landers with ponder is correct, keeping 2 landers with Otherworldly Gaze is iffy.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
That is a valid point but the situations where that would screw you are if you draw this specific card instead of your 3-4th land which would be super duper improbable. Most of the time you just mitigate that by casting the spell ahead of needing the land. Math I think favors Gaze here in most situations when the GY matters and you want to see as many cards as possible. I'd like to double down on the hot take! Lol
Ponder/Brainstorm also get you the best card in your top 3 right now which can be game winning - it's hard to overstate how powerful these effects are in a well constructed deck. Keeping 2 landers with ponder is correct, keeping 2 landers with Otherworldly Gaze is iffy.
I can see how ponder might be stronger there, but it's not much different if you want to hit lands and you cast that spell on T1-2. If anything you could argue that otherworldly gaze is even stronger because if you cast it on T1 to try and hit a land, you can flashback the card again on T2 to try to hit another land. See my point? In the average deck you will hit one land every 3 cards. Gaze seems to solve the problem in your example better actually because it has much higher propability of hitting more than one land and the non-land cards can sent to the GY if you don't want them where with ponder and brainstorm you have to take them all or leave it to luck on a blind draw in the absence of a fetch.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Ardeyn wrote:
1 year ago
Which zombies would be the best I'm missing currently?
I guess I totally forgot about Gray Merchant of Asphodel, which should absolutely be in the deck regarding the potentiel with Sunrises and Living Death.
I really like Champion of the Perished. It gets huge very quickly. Shambling Ghast is pretty nice utility, and then there's Changeling Outcast and Universal Automaton that are token knights. Stitcher's Supplier is very strong, Binding Mummy is great board control, Shepherd of Rot is great as a rattlesnake in a weird way, Plague Belcher is nice, and Wilhelt the Rotcleaver is very good too. There's probably some I've missed, but these are great places to start.

I haven't tested Intent, but I have 3 waiting at my LGS, so one of them will get in here probably.
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago
I think no unless they tick multiple boxes.
I fully agree. I don't think the mechanic is strong enough to warrant otherwise iffy includes. I could see Dread Marn, but I also don't know where I'd fit it in lol.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago


I can see how ponder might be stronger there, but it's not much different if you want to hit lands and you cast that spell on T1-2. If anything you could argue that otherworldly gaze is even stronger because if you cast it on T1 to try and hit a land, you can flashback the card again on T2 to try to hit another land. See my point? In the average deck you will hit one land every 3 cards. Gaze seems to solve the problem in your example better actually because it has much higher propability of hitting more than one land and the non-land cards can sent to the GY if you don't want them where with ponder and brainstorm you have to take them all or leave it to luck on a blind draw in the absence of a fetch.
We have other 1 and 2 drops in our deck we would like to cast.

Ponder allows you to play 1, 2,ponder on 3 if you miss the land on 3 and then a 2 drop. This line of play can end with a solid board into Varina.

If you have to play gaze on 1 and then you whiff you are forced to play gaze again on 2, which is fairly awkward.

Because you can't wait until 3 to cast gaze (it must be done on 2 at the latest) the sequencing is much worse.

I think I could get behind gaze being the best third cantrip though i am not sure.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
plaganegra wrote:
1 year ago


I can see how ponder might be stronger there, but it's not much different if you want to hit lands and you cast that spell on T1-2. If anything you could argue that otherworldly gaze is even stronger because if you cast it on T1 to try and hit a land, you can flashback the card again on T2 to try to hit another land. See my point? In the average deck you will hit one land every 3 cards. Gaze seems to solve the problem in your example better actually because it has much higher propability of hitting more than one land and the non-land cards can sent to the GY if you don't want them where with ponder and brainstorm you have to take them all or leave it to luck on a blind draw in the absence of a fetch.
We have other 1 and 2 drops in our deck we would like to cast.

Ponder allows you to play 1, 2,ponder on 3 if you miss the land on 3 and then a 2 drop. This line of play can end with a solid board into Varina.

If you have to play gaze on 1 and then you whiff you are forced to play gaze again on 2, which is fairly awkward.

Because you can't wait until 3 to cast gaze (it must be done on 2 at the latest) the sequencing is much worse.

I think I could get behind gaze being the best third cantrip though i am not sure.
Loving this thought experiment, although sequencing is so so much harder to evaluate because it depends on more variables than can really be accounted for. I was curious so I did a calculation of the number of possible 7 card combinations from a 99 card deck and 14,887,031,544 different hand combinations as possible outcomes (where order and sequence doesn't mater).

I would be willing to agree that Otherworldly gaze is at least third to ponder and brainstorm, but might be better. Let's do more evaluating.

I think, for evaluation, we should consider three main goals based on the conversation on cantrips so far and in the order I am perceiving their importance. The rank of importance is skewed towards early game performance more than late game performance.
  • 1 - Finding lands to prevent missing a drop
  • 2 - Overall card selection
  • 3 - Card advantage
Finding lands to prevent missing a drop is easily the #1 priority if you find yourself in that situation. In general this increases the number of keepable hands while having the benefit of running fewer mana sources than you might otherwise. The cantrips we are talking about all have different strengths. I know we all know what these cards do but I think it might be helpful to break this down in such a way.

Ponder
  • 1 - See up to 4 cards. you have 4 chances to see a land this turn (the three on top now + the 1 you could draw if you decide to shuffle)
  • 2 - you get to either re-order 3 cards or reshuffle and take a blind draw. If you choose to re-order because you see a land you need then you are stuck with the other 2 cards even if you do not want them absent an unused fetch land.
  • 3 - Replaces itself with one card draw.
Brainstorm
  • 1 - See 3 cards. You have 3 chances to see a land on this turn
  • 2 - You get to re-sculpt your hand by putting any 2 cards back on top of your deck. If you don't want those cards, you are stuck with them absent a fetch land.
  • 3 - Replaces itself with a card draw
Otherworldly Gaze
  • 1 - See up to 8 cards. You have up to 4 chances to see a land on your next draw (if you mill three non-lands), and 4 more chances to see a land on the following draw.
  • 2 - You get to choose any combination of cards you want to keep for the next 3 draws or cards you want to put directly into your GY. Then you have the option to do that again. You have full control of all 3 cards in any combination.
  • 3 - Replaces itself by adding up to 6 cards to your GY instead of your hand.
I think all three of these are extremely powerful cards in the right deck. And a few very critical contextual factors will determine the order:
How many fetches do you run?
How much do you treat your GY as a second hand?

If you are maxxed out on fetch lands, I think Brainstorm is the winner arguably. Although it sees fewer cards than the other options by itself, it has the insane magical-unicorn power of swapping out cards from your hand to the top of your library. With a fetch you essentially have a vastly superior ponder except you also got to swap out your 1-2 worst cards in your hand (depending on when you crack the fetch).

If you are not maxxed out on fetches and don't run a ton of GY action, I think Ponder is clearly the best of the three. It sees up to 4 cards and does not rely on a fetch to do so. Sadly if you don't want 2/3 cards on top, you have a tough choice to make on wether or not you shuffle and go for the mystery draw.

If you prioritize your GY pile (and/or do not run many fetches) I see Otherworldly Gaze as your best choice overall in Varina specifically. It is the only one that cares about the GY at all - and it does so in a big and obvious way. It also happens to allow you to dig through the most cards out of any of these spells with seeing up to a whopping 8 cards for three mana over two casts. It is also the only card here with independent value from the GY if it is cycled with Varina.

What do you all think of this evaluation? If for nothing else, it made me feel more confident with the two cantrips I am running in my deck right now which are brainstorm and otherworldly gaze. I run the max number of fetches and care a lot about my GY and seeing the most cards possible over the course of a game. Right now I feel Brainstorm > Gaze > Ponder in my particular deck. I might find myself with all three.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
If you have to play gaze on 1 and then you whiff you are forced to play gaze again on 2, which is fairly awkward.
If you cast Ponder T3 to look for the 3rd land, you basically saw up to 1 more card over three turns than you would have with Gaze since Ponder cantrips and gaze mills. That is definitely accurate. However if you find the land you need in the top 3 cards you have limited choice over what to do with the other 2 cards. That is subtle, but it is a factor.

If you cast Brainstorm T3 or before, you see possibly fewer cards than a T1 or T2 Gaze cast only once which is interesting.

Ponder and Brainstorm do not give you the option to see up to 8 cards by the T3 draw, but Gaze does, and it even allows you to hand-pick 2 of those cards to draw and bin up to 4 of them (since if you decide to keep any of the 3 cards you are not seeing the mystery card as soon) - making many different kinds of hands more keepable because of the sheer digging power.
Last edited by plaganegra 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Reya
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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

I just want to add that Brainstorm is only a pure card quality card. It does not net you +1 card draw. You just do à -3 / +3 in total. But it's the best card quality card ever printed. It's just a slam dunk if you play a lot of fetches and stuff like Land Tax.

Some player even compare it to Ancestral Recall when you combine it with fetches.

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