Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 1 year ago

Thanks Gents! I wouldn't have thought of the partners with Tormod or Sedris for that matter. Of the five you all suggested, I really like Thrasios & Tormod, Sidisi, and The Scarab God best. I can see the merits of them all, especially the Sultai commanders for the ramp. I previously had a copy of The Scarab God, but it's gone now...in someone else's collection.

Anybody else have any thoughts? I'm also really miss Empty the Laboratory, which could be quite juicy with a token-producing commander and other higher CMC zombies. I got some great flips/swaps with it for the short while I played it in Varina.

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pzbw7z
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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Gamazson wrote:
1 year ago
A higher curve means more reanimation. Run Tormod, the Desecrator & Kraum, Ludevic's Opus for some payoff. Start some Gravespawn Sovereign + Intruder Alarm shenanigans.
I've actually got a list for those two. Mind you, I don't have a copy of Kraum yet. :)

It's not a higher-curve list, though. At least, it's much lower than my Varina list which is quite high.

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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

ChocoDude wrote:
1 year ago
Thanks Gents! I wouldn't have thought of the partners with Tormod or Sedris for that matter. Of the five you all suggested, I really like Thrasios & Tormod, Sidisi, and The Scarab God best. I can see the merits of them all, especially the Sultai commanders for the ramp. I previously had a copy of The Scarab God, but it's gone now...in someone else's collection.

Anybody else have any thoughts? I'm also really miss Empty the Laboratory, which could be quite juicy with a token-producing commander and other higher CMC zombies. I got some great flips/swaps with it for the short while I played it in Varina.
All I can say is that Tormod is insanely fun to play *in* my deck - as a commander he would be pretty great. I would pair him with kraum for the flavor personally but thrasios is much stronger.

A friend of mine just assembled a Tormod, the Desecrator / Ghost of Ramirez DePietro deck that does a lot of really interesting things and is packed with a ton of synergies.

Gisa and Geralf was my favorite all time zombie commander for the flavor so I will give them a shout out as well. I made a deck themed entirely around zombies and zombie art and made sure to include innistrad wherever possible for added thematic enjoyment. It is not the most powerful, but probably the most flavorful zombie commander ever printed that one could ask for.

See cards like Compelling Deterrence

Edit - Bonus if you use a Run Away Together lol (see eldraine art). Took me forever to find this card lol
Last edited by plaganegra 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
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My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Gamazson wrote:
1 year ago
A higher curve means more reanimation. Run Tormod, the Desecrator & Kraum, Ludevic's Opus for some payoff. Start some Gravespawn Sovereign + Intruder Alarm shenanigans.

Edit: Ooops missed pokken's post.
Tormod and Kraum is legit for sure too. Really I think for me anything else I did zombie wise would be tormod and something. He's just so strong.

Tormod and Silas would be siiick dimir zombies since Silas lets you replay altars from the bin...and make a zombie. Very efficient.

Edit: man empty the lab would be sick as heck with tormod. You could even run very few zombies and just have them be total units like mikaeus and stuff that combos with him only lol.
Last edited by pokken 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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RedCheese
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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

Can still go for the Big Zombies reanimator for Varinna

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Post by ChocoDude » 1 year ago

Tormod and Silas would be siiick dimir zombies since Silas lets you replay altars from the bin...and make a zombie. Very efficient.

Edit: man empty the lab would be sick as heck with tormod. You could even run very few zombies and just have them be total units like mikaeus and stuff that combos with him only lol.
Yeah you could use Lotus Petal, Mishra's Bauble, Soul-Guide Lantern, and other sacrificial artifacts and bring them back with Silas and get a token from Tormod IF they're both on the board.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah actually Tormod Kraum would be gross. I keep forgetting Tormod has partner.
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Post by Gamazson » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Tormod and Kraum is legit for sure too. Really I think for me anything else I did zombie wise would be tormod and something. He's just so strong.

Tormod and Silas would be siiick dimir zombies since Silas lets you replay altars from the bin...and make a zombie. Very efficient.

Edit: man empty the lab would be sick as heck with tormod. You could even run very few zombies and just have them be total units like mikaeus and stuff that combos with him only lol.
Oooooooo........ My neurons are firing.

Maybe build a deck with a bunch of 1 cmc eggs. Stuff like Chromatic Sphere and Darkwater Egg. There is a combo there with Salvaging Station and a sac outlet.

No. I have to stop thinking about that. Artifact combo decks always burn me.

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Post by Falkenbach » 1 year ago

RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
Can still go for the Big Zombies reanimator for Varinna
Yeah I still run some big flavor zombies in my list :) I rather play mikaeus, grimgrin or Rot Hulk than a 1 drop zombie that enters tapped haha but thats my personal opinion.
If I run a 1 drop or even a 2 drop it better have some great upside.
Cards like Empty the Laboratory are just great if you run more of the higher manacost zombies. And they also make the deck more different to play, what for me the reason is that i keep my Varina still interesting after 3-4 years ;)

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Post by Rframpt » 1 year ago

Falkenbach wrote:
1 year ago
RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
Can still go for the Big Zombies reanimator for Varinna
Yeah I still run some big flavor zombies in my list :) I rather play mikaeus, grimgrin or Rot Hulk than a 1 drop zombie that enters tapped haha but thats my personal opinion.
If I run a 1 drop or even a 2 drop it better have some great upside.
Cards like Empty the Laboratory are just great if you run more of the higher manacost zombies. And they also make the deck more different to play, what for me the reason is that i keep my Varina still interesting after 3-4 years ;)
yeah I also prefer running some higher costed zombies as well as Elesh Norn in my list for the reanimation possiblities. Though I am also very interested in going on the more grinding plays with Tormod and many of the zombies that can bring themselves back from the graveyard

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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

I use the big boi zombies also in my list. Mantaining a balance of curve of course. Not interested in going hyper competitive with it like adding Phyrexian Altar to it.

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Post by ChocoDude » 1 year ago

Hey All,

Don't get me wrong. I actually enjoy playing the lower curve Varina more. It's operates more smoothly and faster, which is good for my meta. I've had a higher win-rate with it too. My higher curve variant was usually a turn too late in terms of potential wins. I was just thinking it might be nice to play a different zombie commander that I could deploy my higher cmc zombie cards and still be effective in my quick meta. Note: this is NOT a cEDH meta, just a higher power one.

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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

@ChocoDude I love all the zombies myself. I just want as many zombies as quickly as possible (like a horde) so it really pushes me to a lean and mean style of deck.
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by ChocoDude » 1 year ago

I should've said, "It would ALSO be nice to play a SECOND zombie commander…". I understand the reason for a lean and mean swarm and I also think Varina lends to that style more to take advantage of her attack triggers earlier and more frequently.

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Post by Ardeyn » 1 year ago

Wow, this thread moves so fast, it's hard to keep up with two children consuming quite a bit of spare time.

Thanks for being curious about my list, guys. It's kind of a mess currently. The old one was just too sluggish some time and not focused enough. I still think I'm trying too many things with it at once, going for Faith's Reward/Second Sunrise shenanigans including land loops, discard synergies, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge with as many (zombie) knights as possible and Lich's Mastery to top it all off.
It's probably not enough creatures/zombies yet to run smoothly, not enough sac outlets and also some more "real" draw might be nice. I'm totally open to suggestions and up for some brainstorming regarding the build - going for the white instant recursion.
Varina

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:

The Supreme Verdict has always seemed necessary against Krenko, Mob Boss and similar decks, where 6 mana for a whipe is sometimes just too much mana (though I do like Winds of Abandon).
---
Regarding the on-board protection: the nice thing about it is, that you don't need to keep mana open for it. But I definitely understand where you're coming from.
---
Grixis Zombies with Kraum, Ludevic's Opus and Tormod, the Desecrator would probably be my alternative to this. That sounds intriguing.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

If you're on second sunrise I can't recommend cosmic intervention and brought back enough.

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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

Ardeyn wrote:
1 year ago
Wow, this thread moves so fast, it's hard to keep up with two children consuming quite a bit of spare time.

Thanks for being curious about my list, guys. It's kind of a mess currently. The old one was just too sluggish some time and not focused enough. I still think I'm trying too many things with it at once, going for Faith's Reward/Second Sunrise shenanigans including land loops, discard synergies, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge with as many (zombie) knights as possible and Lich's Mastery to top it all off.
It's probably not enough creatures/zombies yet to run smoothly, not enough sac outlets and also some more "real" draw might be nice. I'm totally open to suggestions and up for some brainstorming regarding the build - going for the white instant recursion.
Hey I was always very curious about the white cards that return things. How have you liked it so far?

If you are looking for some more sac outlets I would definitely grab a copy of ashnod's altar and altar of dementia that were just reprinted and you can also add nantuko husk and phyrexian ghoul - these cards would probably amplify your strategy quite a bit!

I love containment construct, but in your deck how often do you get to use it? I had it in my deck for a while and it was a nice non-zombie source of card advantage as long as I had a bunch of other lower-cmc zombies to support it. I definitely think you want to increase your zombie count slightly.

What is on your maybeboard that you currently have access to?
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Ardeyn wrote:
1 year ago
Wow, this thread moves so fast, it's hard to keep up with two children consuming quite a bit of spare time.

Thanks for being curious about my list, guys. It's kind of a mess currently. The old one was just too sluggish some time and not focused enough. I still think I'm trying too many things with it at once, going for Faith's Reward/Second Sunrise shenanigans including land loops, discard synergies, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge with as many (zombie) knights as possible and Lich's Mastery to top it all off.
It's probably not enough creatures/zombies yet to run smoothly, not enough sac outlets and also some more "real" draw might be nice. I'm totally open to suggestions and up for some brainstorming regarding the build - going for the white instant recursion.
Relatable, I only have the one kid and he still runs rings around me.

This deck is doing some neat stuff man, I like it. There's a neat little synergy there between your Sunrise package, Zuran Orb and Lich's Mastery. That's kinda gross and I love it. Oh and Curse of the Restless Dead is pretty busted in that little synergy web too. Very cool, I'm glad someone found a way to break that card!

It's hard to tell what your budget is here with some of your inclusions but it seems like Academy Rector might just be worth breaking your tribe for. You've got a few more costly enchantments that it'd probably be nice to be able to cheat in from time to time.

As far as 'real' draw goes, how would something like Read the Runes work out for you? It's massively budget but it doubles as a Zuran effect if you're in need, and/or triggers your Miser/Feast of Sanity too. As well, it can get rid of problem permanents for you, the one that's come up in this thread before is Kindred Discovery - great while you're wanting the draw, terrible if you're trying to win, you just deck yourself instead. At any rate its probably better than Careful Consideration here in my opinion, just for having versatility and doing other things you already want to do.

I dunno about the rest of the thread readers but if you're into it I'd be keen to help fine tune the list and really make it hum. We could probably put our heads together and make it pretty nasty if you're into the feedback and let us know what you're specifically wanting to aim at.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

My favorite little easter egg I didn't notice is the Zuran Orb / Mystic Sanctuary / Second Sunrise loops. That's pretty gross :) You can easily go infinite with that if you have a thing that draws you a card on ETB/LTB too.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

That's disgusting and I love it. Honestly, I think this deck could really be degenerate as hell. I'd love to help tweak it.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
That's disgusting and I love it. Honestly, I think this deck could really be degenerate as hell. I'd love to help tweak it.
One thing to watch out for there is you have to leave 3 islands on the battlefield! interesting ruling :)
Mystic Sanctuary rulings:

2019-10-04: As these lands are entering the battlefield, they check for lands that are already on the battlefield. They won't see lands that are entering the battlefield at the same time (due to Scapeshift, for example).

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RedCheese
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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

Is the Haakon package worth it? Thinknig of trying it out

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
Is the Haakon package worth it? Thinknig of trying it out
It needs a little support; Buried Alive is necessary. The package is pointless without Phyrexian Altar, but that's no downside. Tutors or draw are also helpful.

I find it useful; having a card that wants to be ditched usually makes the decision making easy. Double B helps when Gray Merchant of Asphodel lands, but of course, the primary value is an extra combo win-con. especially one that can come out of nowhere with enough mana or with Rooftop Storm in play.

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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
Is the Haakon package worth it? Thinknig of trying it out
It needs a little support; Buried Alive is necessary. The package is pointless without Phyrexian Altar, but that's no downside. Tutors or draw are also helpful.

I find it useful; having a card that wants to be ditched usually makes the decision making easy. Double B helps when Gray Merchant of Asphodel lands, but of course, the primary value is an extra combo win-con. especially one that can come out of nowhere with enough mana or with Rooftop Storm in play.
In a vacuum it depends on what your deck wants to do and how you play. If you want to win with zombies the short answer is yes - combo redundancy with a ton of upside is very good. If your deck doesn't care about combos it is still a very flavorful and fun zombie-guy that can give your deck some added resiliency and board wipe protection.

Adding the changelings and packing in as many zombie knights as possible really ramps up the power level of Haakon as well.

Many people probably skip him because they dont want to focus on combo or would rather a different zombie in the slot that serves a different purpose.

All in all I think he is a solid inclusion in any zombie deck that can easily discard him. Varina is one of those decks.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 1 year ago

So every once in a while I just look at every single zombie creature ever printed and just scan through that list and read them all to look for missed opportunities. Deck's change, playstyle changes, and my thinking about individual cards changes a lot too.

I came across Selhoff Entomber - a card I don't think I even knew existed until I stumbled upon it. At first glance this seems very playable in a list with a high creature count that likes to pack the yard and churn through the top of the deck. Like mine lol. Might give this a shot, figured I would share! Probably still doesn't make the cut looking at what would have to come out.

Also, Rotten Reunion might have a place now since it triggers Poxwalkers.
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Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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