[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Coalition Flag

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
This and Vampiric are the only named "tutors" I don't own for black.
Do you have a Cruel Tutor? Every now and again, I see one and I'm like "maaaaybe", but then nah. Grim Tutor is a bridge too far for me.

If they ever judge foiled Grim Tutor, I'd pick it up. I did that when Imperial Seal was released, and have zero regrets.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I own this card. I've played it in everything XB, and I've never regretted it. Lately, I decided to flip it because it's not reserved and any reprint will crash it. I normally don't think about this stuff, but for the investment I made into it, that bothered me. Nowadays, I noticed I was skipping on Gamble and one other because I was playing Grim still and I'm like...why? Is it worth holding $220 of your collection hostage just to play this? Is this worth the price hike over other reasonable options?

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Turns out I haven't missed Grim at all. I don't regret the original purchase, but I don't need to keep playing it either. And I'm content that I flipped it.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

Sinis wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
This and Vampiric are the only named "tutors" I don't own for black.
Do you have a Cruel Tutor? Every now and again, I see one and I'm like "maaaaybe", but then nah. Grim Tutor is a bridge too far for me.

If they ever judge foiled Grim Tutor, I'd pick it up. I did that when Imperial Seal was released, and have zero regrets.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Friday, November 29th, 2019; Forsake the Worldly



I like it. Stronk roleplayer card. Good hand.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

It is a very good roleplayer, but without cycling and instant speed I think it would be unplayable. White just has so darn many good options here that even with the instant/cycling gravy on top it's going to be tough to justify its inclusion over some of the other artifact/enchantment answers in white unless the deck has a specific reason to want cycling or instant speed effects. I suppose it's biggest upside is that it is a permanent effect unlike some of the creature/enchantment based removal in white which can get removed themselves.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I mean, right, you wouldn't play this without cycling. I don't think any of the cards you mentioned are really better. Six mana and temp answers that can be reversed, 4 mana that needs to be sorcery to be better, and a narrow creature. I think the only one that could be sometimes better is disenchant from your list, but even that not always just because the utility of putting cycling on a disenchant effect is so dang good....

Imo, I think this is (clearly) worse than Nature's Claim, but roughly even with Mystic Melting/Slice in Twain.
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Post by Sinis » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
Friday, November 29th, 2019; Forsake the Worldly
I think I would probably only play this because of cycling (astral drift/slide). Otherwise, we're like, one mana away from True Love's Kiss, Crush Contraband, and Return to Dust.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

We're also on the same mana as Generous Gift. True, it may not exile, but it trumps it super hard in versatility.

I look at the card and I see something out of a precon or what I imagine 2011 EDH was like. Jamming all the flexible overcosted pieces that aren't really that good, but are still ran because of versatility. Guess this could be decent in a dedicated cycling deck, but I have zero experience with those.
 
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

I like this card a lot, but there are a few cards I would play over it. If you are in GW, you don't play this. BW won't play this. It is close in RW. UW is probably the best fit for this card. It is an instant, you can cycle at instant speed.... so it plays well with countermagic.

In white, I would only play Generous Gift over it, I think. I think 4 mana is too much for spot removal, even if they are 2 for 1 effects.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
I mean, right, you wouldn't play this without cycling. I don't think any of the cards you mentioned are really better. Six mana and temp answers that can be reversed, 4 mana that needs to be sorcery to be better, and a narrow creature. I think the only one that could be sometimes better is disenchant from your list, but even that not always just because the utility of putting cycling on a disenchant effect is so dang good....
Agreed on the cycling bit. The options I listed are just that: options, some situationally stronger than others depending on the context. I wasn't trying to say they are strictly better than FtW.

It really comes down to combinations of flexibility AND power. Yeah, Austere Commandis 6 mana, but it gets rid of numerous threats instead of just 1. Oblivion Ring and Cast Out can be reversed by opposing enchantment removal, true, but they can hit all nonland permanent types and will almost never be blanks in your hand or dead draws. Return to Dust is 4 mana, true, but it can hit artifacts too. It needs to be a sorcery not to be simply marginally better, but to be TWICE as good and become a 2 for 1, and it can still be used at instant speed if the circumstance warrants it. War Priest of Thune is narrow for sure, but I'd take it in Roon of the Hidden Realm or Brago, King Eternal over any of the others.

I realize that's a bit off topic, but I think it's so critical when deckbuilding to look at all available options and not just assume that the one staple card that's popular is an auto-include. (To be clear, I'm not accusing you of that @3drinks, I think you make valid points. I just wanted to emphasize the broader application of what I'm talking about.)
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Like how Dispatch is the best critter removal in artifact decks.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

I forgot about that one. Strictly better than Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile in the right deck!
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Forsake the Worldly is.... fine. I'd usually lean towards Council's Judgment / Act of Authority / Generous Gift at 3 mana, or Return to Dust / Crush Contraband if I wanted to go up to 4 mana. The option to cycle is... fine, but not exciting unless you're doing a dedicated cycling deck. Exiling is a significant upside, but I don't think I would be willing to pay the extra mana for just that over Disenchant.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

I'd play StP over dispatch in every deck, I don't care how many artifacts I'm running. Reliability vs giving my opponent a few life is not a tough call.

As far as the cotd, I think cycling can be overrated, but it does depend on the deck. Phelddagrif isn't that psyched about this card and cycling in general, because you don't generally want to cycle an answer since, at best, you'll probably draw another answer, and at worst a land (although if it's t3 and you need a land drop then I guess it's nice to have). For a deck that actually does, y'know, PROACTIVE things, I could see it being more versatile, but I still think I'd prooobably rather pay the extra mana for true love's kiss and get both effects, instead of needing to pick. But it's close. Probably depends how hard it is for you to leave up mana, etc.

Anyway I think a lot of these types of spells are close enough in power level that you won't experience any significant win% change in either direction by picking one over the other. Gift is the one outlier that stands above the rest.

The sorcery-speed versions of all of these effects are not comparable in any way, imo. Especially o-ring, o-ring just sucks, no one should be playing that card in 2019 unless they're absolutely balls-to-the-wall on enchantments or something. The other sorcery speed ones are ok but fill different roles, since they can't break combos or retaliate.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
The sorcery-speed versions of all of these effects are not comparable in any way, imo. Especially o-ring, o-ring just sucks, no one should be playing that card in 2019 unless they're absolutely balls-to-the-wall on enchantments or something. The other sorcery speed ones are ok but fill different roles, since they can't break combos or retaliate.
I just fundamentally dislike the attitude of "X is terrible and no one should play it" in such an open, sandboxy, and casual format (absolutely nothing personal intended, no one can truly get upset with a Pheldagriff player ;) ). Kind of against the spirit of the whole thing IMHO.

Yes, in a vacuum of course there is a "best" version of any given effect in a color. Generous Gift and Disenchant are better than Oblivion Ring in that vacuum. It's not even close. You could take it further by saying that the "strictly better vacuum" is a bigger deal in more competitive metas where incidental value from synergy matters less and stopping infinite combos / keeping mana curve low matters more.

However, and this has been my entire point, within the context of a living breathing deck in a casual, eternal format, synergy DOES matter. If this was the cEDH forum I wouldn't be arguing this point, but out here where there aren't as many Force of Wills and Gaea's Cradles floating about, budgets, card availability, synergy, casual playgroups, and far fewer T3-5 infinite combos are relevant factors. With that in mind, there are plenty of decks where I would prefer Oblivion Ring, Cast Out, Conclave Tribunal and Prison Realm in my removal suite over Forsake the Worldly, Disenchant, or Generous Gift. On the flip side, in a cycling themed deck you can sign me up for FtW and Cast Out every time.

I feel :crazy: standing my ground in a silly internet forum over something that matters as little as this, especially because I assume people think I look something like this while I type: :cussing: :mad: :fuming: (I promise I don't!) I just find myself perplexed when it seems like the general approach to the format is becoming more and more that it's "solved" when that's just not the case, especially when you are looking at budget and casual metas.

That's the last I'll chime in about this COTD. Thank you all for the discussion, I love the food for thought!
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

Could be a back up for Disenchant or the other way around lol
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
1 year ago
I just fundamentally dislike the attitude of "X is terrible and no one should play it" in such an open, sandboxy, and casual format (absolutely nothing personal intended, no one can truly get upset with a Pheldagriff player ;) ). Kind of against the spirit of the whole thing IMHO.

Yes, in a vacuum of course there is a "best" version of any given effect in a color. Generous Gift and Disenchant are better than Oblivion Ring in that vacuum. It's not even close. You could take it further by saying that the "strictly better vacuum" is a bigger deal in more competitive metas where incidental value from synergy matters less and stopping infinite combos / keeping mana curve low matters more.

However, and this has been my entire point, within the context of a living breathing deck in a casual, eternal format, synergy DOES matter. If this was the cEDH forum I wouldn't be arguing this point, but out here where there aren't as many Force of Wills and Gaea's Cradles floating about, budgets, card availability, synergy, casual playgroups, and far fewer T3-5 infinite combos are relevant factors. With that in mind, there are plenty of decks where I would prefer Oblivion Ring, Cast Out, Conclave Tribunal and Prison Realm in my removal suite over Forsake the Worldly, Disenchant, or Generous Gift. On the flip side, in a cycling themed deck you can sign me up for FtW and Cast Out every time.
I'm not the guy saying not to run imminent doom because it sucks - I mean, it does, but it's also cool and unique, and a worthy dream to dream. The cards mentioned here are useful and powerful but they're not terribly interesting. They're all just removal. I don't see any reason to pick one over another except by which one is better, personally - whether building competitively or silly jank.

I did point out that you can probably argue o-ring as viable if you're going heavy enchantment synergy, pretty explicitly, so idk why you ignored that bit. That said, "make a deck with a bunch of enchantments and enchantment synergy" is a pretty boring, well-trod dream imo, and I doubt I'll ever play o-ring again in my lifetime. But I get that not everyone agrees with me on that point.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
The sorcery-speed versions of all of these effects are not comparable in any way, imo. Especially o-ring, o-ring just sucks, no one should be playing that card in 2019 unless they're absolutely balls-to-the-wall on enchantments or something.
Sup, I have a deck that runs 30 enchantments. O-Ring is not one of them.

Removal needs to come function first, then a long stretch of nothing, then optional cuteness with whatever the deck's doing. Answering stuff is part of the same utility bucket as ramp, draw and tutoring, whatever you need from these is going to be pretty homogeneous if going for the "correct" build to function well. That's not to say there's no potential for strong deck-specific options in these categories, with Dispatch being the perfect example, but that thing still plays third fiddle to Swords/Path, even in the right deck for it.

That said, the 30 enchantment deck has some fun with its wipe choices to break symmetry.
 
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Saturday, November 30th, 2019; Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

I feel like I want to Obliterate with him out.
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Looking, and apparently Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero is the second-least-popular of the new C19 legends, beating only Tahngarth, First Mate. I haven't seen him in action yet, so can't really give any thoughts on how he is in practice. I do appreciate WotC exploring more Boros non-combat design space, but Gerrard seems like a bit of a miss.

In theory, there are some interesting things you can do with him. The simplest thing is to play him as a preemptive Boros Charm to protect from board wipes. You can build upon that with Obliterate or other mass destruction spells to make your own board wipes one-sided (or at least sufficiently asymmetric to win). Unfortunately, people tend to not enjoy getting all of their stuff blown up, so I would expect Gerrard decks to draw a disproportionate amount of hate as a result.

The other way I could see Gerrard being played is combo, making use of his ability to recur a bunch of permanents on demand. Exiling himself does make things a bit more complicated, but the recursion isn't dependent on the exile, which means you can grab him back with something like Twilight Shepherd. Just be sure to stack your triggers properly.

Anyone actually have experience playing with/against him?

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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

I think I would build Gerrard with a bunch of board wipes and etb artifacts and big beaters. If you include enough haste enablers you could Wrath of God pre-combat then attack with impunity, in theory. It's a fragile setup though, and probably not consistent enough to be great. I like him more in the 99.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

The only good Gerrard decks I've seen are "Eggs" shells. I myself was on the receiving end of that - and quite sad i was without my giant F6 button to auto pass priority through the loops.

Can't imagine there's anything better for this, nor that anything else can could reach anywhere near this archetype in power level.
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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
I feel like I want to Obliterate with him out.
Always a possibility. Or Akroma's Vengeance or Austere Command.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Sunday, November 1st, 2019; Destructive Force

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