[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Leonin Shikari

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 10 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
10 months ago
On topic: this is like Psychic Possession except worse because it's symmetrical and capped at 1.
-symmetrical isn't always bad.
-this costs half as much mana.
-it doesn't skip your draw step.

I definitely wouldn't say it's worse. Psychic possession doesn't even do anything in a vacuum, if you're running it it's because you intend to force an opponent to draw extra cards. Tenuous truce doesn't demand any buildaround, it's just free* value at a low price.
Also they get to call the shots on when to end the bargain, which is dependent entirely on the M.O. of the chosen player and the politics of the given game. Me personally, I'm going to extort way more than a card per turn out of any player that sticks this to me if they want it to stick around. Either you assist me in killing everyone else in glorious creature combat or I'm sending it all at you for wasting my time with Peace Talks in a %$#% zero sum game. Please choose.
The power of the card is highly dependent on context. If you're archenemy and a juicy attack target, ofc it's going to be worthless. You have to be able to read what's happening at the table and how people operate. But the potential upside is there. It's a 2 mana Phyrexian Arena that prevents an opponent from attacking you as a ceiling, that's a pretty high ceiling tbh.

The easiest way to play it would be, when you're not archenemy, to play it on whoever is in the worst shape and/or not really capable of making good attacks. That's generally easy money as far as the draw. The higher ceiling, bigger risk, play would be to put it on the aggro player who is running out of steam and really needs the draw. Now you're not just getting the card, you're also pushing the attacks elsewhere so long as you can avoid being too obvious of an attack target.

Commander may be a zero sum game, but it's also a multiplayer game. This card isn't "wasting time", it's an offer to mutually benefit by screwing over the other two players.
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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 10 months ago

I'll bite.
DirkGently wrote:
10 months ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
10 months ago
On topic: this is like Psychic Possession except worse because it's symmetrical and capped at 1.
-symmetrical isn't always bad.
-this costs half as much mana.
-it doesn't skip your draw step.

I definitely wouldn't say it's worse. Psychic possession even doesn't do anything in a vacuum, if you're running it it's because you intend to force an opponent to draw extra cards. Tenuous truce doesn't demand any buildaround, it's just free* value at a low price.
It's hardly free if you never catch a card off it. The fail state of TT is straight nothing for two mana. Psychic possession's fail state is nothing too, but the ceiling is DYI Trade Secrets. That's worth 2 more mana in my book. TT being white does muddle the math a bit, but I think white has better CA than this thing by now.
Also they get to call the shots on when to end the bargain, which is dependent entirely on the M.O. of the chosen player and the politics of the given game. Me personally, I'm going to extort way more than a card per turn out of any player that sticks this to me if they want it to stick around. Either you assist me in killing everyone else in glorious creature combat or I'm sending it all at you for wasting my time with Peace Talks in a %$#% zero sum game. Please choose.
The power of the card is highly dependent on context. If you're archenemy and a juicy attack target, ofc it's going to be worthless. You have to be able to read what's happening at the table and how people operate. But the potential upside is there. It's a 2 mana Phyrexian Arena that prevents an opponent from attacking you as a ceiling, that's a pretty high ceiling tbh.

The easiest way to play it would be, when you're not archenemy, to play it on whoever is in the worst shape and/or not really capable of making good attacks. That's generally easy money as far as the draw. The higher ceiling, bigger risk, play would be to put it on the aggro player who is running out of steam and really needs the draw. Now you're not just getting the card, you're also pushing the attacks elsewhere so long as you can avoid being too obvious of an attack target.

Commander may be a zero sum game, but it's also a multiplayer game. This card isn't "wasting time", it's an offer to mutually benefit by screwing over the other two players.
Eh, if someone plays TT they're probably better equipped to break parity on it than me. Context is key though as we've agreed, so I think we have to analyze the potential scenarios:

1. I am the aggro deck and a fellow aggro deck sticks me with TT. Our strategies are more or less in line already, so I probably accept the two-horse race and we beat down the other 2 players.

2. I am the aggro deck and a control deck sticks me with TT. Even if I'm running low on gas, I still probably attack them because the odds that they draw a wipe or something and ranch me are not an acceptable gamble. Giving them CA just allows them to better outscale my threats whereas my average card quality is much lower. I would rather just force them to spend two mana and discard a card.

3. I am the control deck and an aggro deck offers me TT. You fool!

4. I am the control deck and a control deck sticks me with TT. Okay, I will wait until you have fewer cards (say, saving the table from a combo with all your countermagic?) then break the truce and eat you alive.

Scenario 2 is what I would consider most likely for me personally, given my inclinations and the meta I play in. That all being said, I've never seen this card before this RCotD, so I can only say what I'd probably do.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 10 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
10 months ago
It's hardly free if you never catch a card off it. The fail state of TT is straight nothing for two mana. Psychic possession's fail state is nothing too, but the ceiling is DYI Trade Secrets. That's worth 2 more mana in my book. TT being white does muddle the math a bit, but I think white has better CA than this thing by now.
That's why I put an asterisk next to "free". Though if you get zero cards off it, it's either because you've done a terrible job of evaluating the game state, or someone's messing with you.

I think all your scenarios are way too estranged from the context of what's actually happening in the game. Commander games aren't defined purely by the archetypes involved. In standard or whatever, if an aggro deck playing vs control runs out of gas to a board wipe it will likely be game over, sure, but decks aren't so focused and games aren't so linear in commander. I've had plenty of games playing aggro decks where I got stopped early on, but found a window to recover and clutch the win later. There are aggro decks with tons of draw, control decks that run out of gas, etc.

But even if we're considering the games in the limited context you've outlined, in scenario 2 I think I'd typically take the TT and use those free resources to hedge myself against a future wipe. And ofc keep an eye towards the other player, and try to make a good decision about when I should break the truce, either because they're becoming too threatening, because I've got an alternative source of sufficient CA, or because I think I can get a big enough alpha strike to be worth the tradeoff. The only time I'd break the truce immediately is if I think it's already a 2-horse race against them.

...but, if that's the case, that person would be a fool to put TT on you in the first place. You're choosing to view TT only through the lens of the person it's being played on, instead of the person playing it. They've got 3 opponents to choose from, and only one of them needs to be a good target. Even if you think each player is a bad target most of the time, that's totally fine for the person playing it. 3 usually-bad targets probably averages out to one good target, which is all it takes.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 10 months ago

@DirkGently I can only evaluate the card from the perspective of someone who is stuck with TT, rather than doing the sticking. I would never play this horrid thing. You might, but you're an EDH masochist imo.

Also, yeah, that's admittedly a pretty shallow context to evaluate it, but I'm writing this all on a phone that was cutting edge 7 years ago. Cut me some slack, the price of nuance is my thumbs.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 10 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
10 months ago
@DirkGently I can only evaluate the card from the perspective of someone who is stuck with TT, rather than doing the sticking. I would never play this horrid thing. You might, but you're an EDH masochist imo.
But surely we can agree that the value of a card is how good it is for the person running it, not how good it is for the person it's being played against? There are many cards I would never run, but that doesn't prevent me from evaluating the card within the context of someone else's deck.

I have run it once, in my Gluntch, the Bestower deck. I think it's fine. I mean it's not amazing or anything. It's a 2 mana phyrexian arena with conditions, that's just okay. Theoretically it could be better if you could really convince the target you didn't need to be attacked, but my reputation probably precedes me too much for the card to do too much heavy lifting in that regard.
Also, yeah, that's admittedly a pretty shallow context to evaluate it, but I'm writing this all on a phone that was cutting edge 7 years ago. Cut me some slack, the price of nuance is my thumbs.
I don't think it takes more words, just a reframing of the context. I think the question "who's ahead right now" is a lot more relevant than "what archetypes are being played". And I think viewing it only from the context of the person having TT played upon them doesn't really make sense.
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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

I have had really good luck with Tenuous Truce in my very casual decks. It's a fun card that has a high ceiling in longer games where people are playing decks more likely to flounder.

Lulu, Loyal Hollyphant's criminal empire depends on political draw cards from white pretty heavily and this one and Secret Rendezvous have been very good...against other very casual decks.

Something I love about these types of cards and in general wizards continuing to print lots of unoptimized but wildly divergent crap is that there're a lot of fun ways to assemble trash decks. :P Not every card needs to be for "optimized" commander decks (7s each and every one!)

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Post by 3drinks » 10 months ago

Thursday, June 1st, 2023; Fiery Emancipation


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Post by 3drinks » 10 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
10 months ago
3drinks wrote:
10 months ago
Igzex wrote:
10 months ago
Still bitter about her upstaging my boy Scion of Darkness.
I'm bitter they downshifted this to uncommon. Wow. I remember using the alt cast to bring it out from Onslaught...
Dude, just look how they massacred our boy Spiritmonger. That is a tragedy on another level.
Don't get me started on my beloved Spiritmonger|apc . :\

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Post by void_nothing » 10 months ago

Fiery Emancipation turns a 7-power commander into a one-hit kill.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 10 months ago

You know, I kind of expected this card to be all over the place but I have yet to actually see it in a game. I did put a copy in a list recently but it feels like a card I often end up not keeping in to play with.
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Post by materpillar » 10 months ago

3drinks wrote:
10 months ago
Thursday, June 1st, 2023; Fiery Emancipation

Gishath, Sun's Avatar smash!

Nice 40 life buffer you've got there, shame if something were to happen to it.

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Post by Dunharrow » 10 months ago

Very strong card. Think it should have been 7 mana. Good curve topper, but has to be right deck. Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is better most times.
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Post by Serenade » 10 months ago

Needs a reprint big time. This card is solely for casual play, right? No need for casual stuff to be so expensive.
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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

I run this and City on Fire as fun ofs in my Xenagos, God of Revels deck.

Doming someone for 42 with Old Gnawbone is hilarious. I like how doubling my power and then tripling the damage is *6 instead of *4. Parentheses are awesome.

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Post by toctheyounger » 10 months ago

Obviously a finisher, but I do feel like City on Fire is a strict upgrade. In the decks that want this 6 is a lot to cast this, and it probably means taking a turn off to do it. That said, once its down, you are a god of fire and destruction and none shall survive your ire.
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Post by RedCheese » 10 months ago

I wanted this card, but its price is qutie expensive. City on Fire is thankefully a solid replacement

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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

I bought a Japanese one for like $10 and put a post it note inside. The modern edh staples are so cheap in Japanese and Chinese.

I just bought a Japanese anointed procession for $15. Post it note effort is so little.

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Post by Igzex » 10 months ago

Easily my second favorite Astral Dragon target (Next to Timesifter of course)

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Post by DirkGently » 10 months ago

It's a pretty insane effect, but I can't be too upset with a card that rewards dealing moderate amounts of damage. Definitely wouldn't want to play this in a 3c deck with a ton of basics, to link it back to that other topic.
toctheyounger wrote:
10 months ago
Obviously a finisher, but I do feel like City on Fire is a strict upgrade.
My Kaervek the Merciless deck disagrees.

Might run both though, we'll see.
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Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Post by toctheyounger » 10 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
10 months ago
My Kaervek the Merciless deck disagrees.
I have to ask why? I can't see any tangible difference from one to the other that would put Fiery ahead. I am pretty tired though so I could be missing something.
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Post by DirkGently » 10 months ago

@toctheyounger well kaervek is basically the only creature in the deck so convoke is borderline irrelevant. So it's just an 8 mana version of the same thing.
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PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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PrimevalCommander
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 9 months ago

pokken wrote:
10 months ago
I just bought a Japanese anointed procession for $15.
I did the same thing :grin:

I don't really like the design of "Tripplers". Wizards seems obsessed with doubling everything right now, so this is the natural progression of power creeping those cards, but scaling it that far is a bit crazy.

My mono red deck wouldn't mind having Fiery Emancipation, but I can settle with City on Fire and it probably be better due to convoke. Maybe after the reprint I can get both, but 6 mana is high for that deck.

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 9 months ago

Friday, June 2nd, 2023; Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker



:x

Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 9 months ago

pokken wrote:
10 months ago
I bought a Japanese one for like $10 and put a post it note inside. The modern edh staples are so cheap in Japanese and Chinese.

I just bought a Japanese anointed procession for $15. Post it note effort is so little.
This, 5ED Sylvan and 6ED Worldly weren't so bad in japanese.

Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 9 months ago

Man Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker - what a flashback. that's the kinda trash we used to build back in the day :P

He's almost unplayable now. People play removal.

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