[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Samwise the Stouthearted

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TheGildedGoose
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
The point is that cards are either effective or they're not.
What metrics do you use for card analysis?

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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
The point is that cards are either effective or they're not.
What metrics do you use for card analysis?
I don't have hard metrics. is more based on experience and what i have played. I can agreed with Graveyard Titan been overrated(even tough i like the card) sicne there are strong options on the vaccum. But saying that Grave and Inferno are unplayable in a msotly casual format very harsh. They still do their jobs quite well as big beaters than can take over the board. They can even have synergies in different types of decks like Grave for sac/token decks or Inferno for burn style of decks.

I just disagreed with the notion that they are unplayable since i believe that they are very playable in our format.

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Post by Igzex » 1 year ago

The sheer number of things the card designers unlearned when making this card boggles my mind. She encourages a strategy that the common Magic the Gathering player does not enjoy at all and has an EDHREC page that makes Nekusar, the Mindrazer yawn. On top of all that, she's not even good in cutthroat metas. She costs a lot to cast, the resources the player is attacking are easily replaced by what's in the opponent's command zones alone, and the things you're gonna steal are going to be small archetype specific things with plenty of redundancy left in the opponent's deck. Her only place in commander is to genuinely grief slower less efficient pods.

It is amazing to think that this is an actual card that people got paychecks to design and not something submitted to MTGCardsmith by an edgy young man.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Igzex wrote:
1 year ago
The sheer number of things the card designers unlearned when making this card boggles my mind. She encourages a strategy that the common Magic the Gathering player does not enjoy at all and has an EDHREC page that makes Nekusar, the Mindrazer yawn. On top of all that, she's not even good in cutthroat metas. She costs a lot to cast, the resources the player is attacking are easily replaced by what's in the opponent's command zones alone, and the things you're gonna steal are going to be small archetype specific things with plenty of redundancy left in the opponent's deck. Her only place in commander is to genuinely grief slower less efficient pods.

It is amazing to think that this is an actual card that people got paychecks to design and not something submitted to MTGCardsmith by an edgy young man.
While I agree with you for the most part, I think you forgot that this card appears fun to build around. It was insanely popular in Brawl for a long time. But also people would refuse to play against it.
Like Nekusar, it's a design that appeals to deckbuilders a lot, but is terribly unfun to play against.
I can understand why they made it, and it is an elegant design for a MDFC, but it is actively horrible for commander.

I think it speaks to the quality of the average commander player that this card is not super popular. It isn't fun, so people don't really play it.

I do wish it could be fixed.... limiting it to stealing one thing per turn would be a big help.
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Post by NZB2323 » 1 year ago

I run Tergrid, God of Fright // Tergrid's Lantern in Neheb, the Worthy. I think when she's in the 99 and not the commander she's not so broken and horrible to play against.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
I don't have hard metrics. is more based on experience and what i have played. I can agreed with Graveyard Titan been overrated(even tough i like the card) sicne there are strong options on the vaccum. But saying that Grave and Inferno are unplayable in a msotly casual format very harsh. They still do their jobs quite well as big beaters than can take over the board. They can even have synergies in different types of decks like Grave for sac/token decks or Inferno for burn style of decks.

I just disagreed with the notion that they are unplayable since i believe that they are very playable in our format.
My metrics are very simple.

a) Is what this card does good in EDH? If yes,
b) Is this card good at what it does? If yes,
c) Does this card have any unique advantages over other options?

The titans are BDBs; big, dumb beaters. Their purpose is to enter the red zone and reduce life totals, one chunk at a time. They're only okay at this. The better ones have relevant combat traits but the others are a little lacking. Unfortunately, BDBs don't fare well in most EDH games that I play. I don't have to explain the effect inflated life totals and multiple opponents have on the efficacy of BDBs. In my estimation, the weaker titans fail to pass the first question. It's the absurd power of the ETBs/attack triggers of Primeval and Sun that so far elevate them above the other titans.

The problem with using the "casual format" argument for defending a card is that it can literally be applied to any card. If Chimney Imp is arguably playable in Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker. Does that make it a good card? I can acknowledge that "playable" is a little vague there, and that I should've probably said efficient or something like that to convey my meaning, but I stand by the original intent of the argument.

Oh, this thread is about Tergrid, God of Fright now?

Tergrid is quite obviously potent if she can do her thing, but the hot or cold nature of the deck where you either blow everyone out or get blown out seems pretty boring. She's too aggressive for a casual game of EDH and too ineffective in cEDH. One of two poster children for this problem, along with Brago, King Eternal.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@TheGildedGoose Honestly I'm with @RedCheese on this - the titans have, respectively, 133K (W), 33K (B), 23K (R), and 5K (U) inclusions on EDHrec. So at least for the mardu ones, they're definitely getting played, especially sun titan. Even 23K isn't "it's only good in one deck" numbers (and as someone who's played Shirei, chimney imp isn't good enough there either).

Are they perfectly optimal? Well, how do you even count that? Are they getting played in cEDH decks? Probably not, but who cares. Few of us play cEDH, and for good reason - because we'd like to play suboptimal strategies like beating people to death with grave titan.

I do think things can get fuzzy over what's playable when you're looking at something like, say, Watchwolf. Despite the fact that it's played in a whopping 87% of Jasmine Boreal of the Seven decks, and having obvious synergy with her. I think it's still such a terrible card that they'd be stronger if they ran something else. Same for all the bear tribal decks with Ayula, Queen Among Bears running vanilla 2/2 for 2s (if only there was a shorthand for that sort of thing...). People run bad cards because they fit the theme or whatever, and plenty of other non-optimization-related reasons. But I don't think the titans are anywhere close to that level. Are they optimal om a vacuum, no. Are they still pretty good, yes. Should you play them in cEDH, no. Will they be just fine at a 75% table in a deck that's suited to them, yes. I think that makes them clearly playable within normal EDH.

I also really don't think the existence of better cards (Does this card have any unique advantages over other options?) is a good metric. It's a 100 card singleton format. Redundancy is valuable. Does the existence of Mana Drain mean Counterspell is a bad card? obviously not. For a deck that only has a couple slots for 6-drop value-generating beaters, maybe the titans don't make the cut. For a deck that has a dozen or more slots, though, there's a pretty good chance that they do. I don't think there are many direct obvious upgrades to them anyway. Within a specific enough context they could be the best choice.

Agree on your analysis of Tergrid. Another commander I played against a few times recently (in a precon fight) that is similarly hot/cold - Kyler, Sigardian Emissary. If he lives for like 2 turns, he'll give the board +10/+10 and the game is over. If he dies, the deck is hot trash that does nothing. So fun...
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
@TheGildedGoose Honestly I'm with @RedCheese on this - the titans have, respectively, 133K (W), 33K (B), 23K (R), and 5K (U) inclusions on EDHrec. So at least for the mardu ones, they're definitely getting played, especially sun titan. Even 23K isn't "it's only good in one deck" numbers (and as someone who's played Shirei, chimney imp isn't good enough there either).
Popularity doesn't always reflect viability. Lifegain is the third most popular archetype on EDHrec and it's, generally, not very good.
Are they perfectly optimal? Well, how do you even count that? Are they getting played in cEDH decks? Probably not, but who cares. Few of us play cEDH, and for good reason - because we'd like to play suboptimal strategies like beating people to death with grave titan.
There's no accounting for taste. If you want to play with suboptimal cards, that's fine, but knowing they're suboptimal is an important part of the card analysis process. For example, in the grand scheme of EDH, I acknowledge that mono-black control is a suboptimal strategy, even outside of cEDH. I still play it because I love it, though.
But I don't think the titans are anywhere close to that level. Are they optimal om a vacuum, no. Are they still pretty good, yes. Should you play them in cEDH, no. Will they be just fine at a 75% table in a deck that's suited to them, yes. I think that makes them clearly playable within normal EDH.
What decks are suited to them?
I also really don't think the existence of better cards (Does this card have any unique advantages over other options?) is a good metric. It's a 100 card singleton format. Redundancy is valuable. Does the existence of Mana Drain mean Counterspell is a bad card? obviously not. For a deck that only has a couple slots for 6-drop value-generating beaters, maybe the titans don't make the cut. For a deck that has a dozen or more slots, though, there's a pretty good chance that they do. I don't think there are many direct obvious upgrades to them anyway. Within a specific enough context they could be the best choice.
To be clear, a and b are requirements to me for a card to be "playable" outside of thematic or aesthetic reasons. C is what elevates a card from either good to great or great to format all-star. In this case, Counterspell is good and Mana Drain is great. Obviously, you're almost certainly going to play both, but in cEDH Counterspell proper doesn't really see play. Just as an example. Another example is Grim Tutor versus Demonic Tutor. I think Grimmy is good, but the gulf between it and Demonic is vast.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Saturday, November 12th, 2022; Runic Armasaur



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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

I'm kinda cold on punisher-esque CA engines that rely on your opponents to do something. Sometimes they're backbreaking, other times people will bend over backwards just to keep you from drawing. At best, they're great psuedo stax but at worst they draw more attention than cards.

At this point, I'd rather just cast a Rishkar's Expertise or Fact or Fiction or whatever and just be done with it.
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Post by materpillar » 1 year ago

Honorary Gishath, Sun's Avatar mention.

It's ok? Sometimes I cast it. Sometimes it draws a card or two? I can see this as an extremely potent metagame choice but I wouldn't just yolo throw it into a deck.

It's got a big butt early game to deflect random chip damage attacks. So that's nice.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

I was always disappointed with it in my various Doran, the Siege Tower builds. Conditional draw for a comparatively uncommon game action isn't very good.

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

I've been testing out Runic Armasaur in my Animar deck for a while, but I still have absolutely no idea if it's good or not. @_@ That deck is willing to run pretty much any creature-based card draw it can get its hands on, so there are quite a few bad Mulldrifters in it. There are some games where Runic Armasaur draws a bunch of cards, and others where an opponent throws a removal spell at it and I get no value. My mental model is that there are enough random fetchlands and activated abilities in the format for it to usually draw 2-3 cards over the course of the game, which is good enough for me to justify its inclusion, but can be lacking if you compare it to something like Sylvan Library or Beast Whisperer.

Still, not bad for a 3-drop creature - there aren't many capable of drawing multiple cards (or at least not without getting into combat), so it's a reasonable option if you're looking for some creature-based card draw.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Popularity doesn't always reflect viability. Lifegain is the third most popular archetype on EDHrec and it's, generally, not very good.
How EDHrec breaks down archetypes is kind of arbitrary, so being the third most popular doesn't really mean that much imo.

But when you say "suboptimal" in what context are you talking about? If EDH was a tournament format that got played like standard, anything not played in a high-tier cEDH deck could reasonably be called "suboptimal", but practically no one actually plays EDH that way. I think most of the playerbase has drawn a rough line of acceptable power level somewhere around "the 75% meta", and most commander games take place within that range. Can lifegain compete within that power level band? Absolutely. Can titans be decent cards within that power level band? Absolutely.

If we're not talking about the typical power level commander games are played at, then what context are we using?
What decks are suited to them?
Well, shooting from the hip, Maelstrom Wanderer is pretty good with them (though it doesn't intersect the best ones). Looking at EDHrec, Saffi Eriksdotter runs sun titan the most (makes sense, it's a combo with her). Duke Ulder Ravengard makes a lot of sense for the big myriad value. Quintorius, Field Historian gets a 3/2 whenever you recur something. As far as inferno, Aegar, the Freezing Flame makes a ton of sense. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is a nice fit too. Feldon of the Third Path...mostly mono-red commanders by the look of it, because with more colors there's usually better options, but with decks that want a fairly high density of largish bombs (especially reasonably-castable bombs, i.e. not eldrazi) and/or care about etbs and attack triggers and haste, they still fill a decent role. Inferno titan is among the less popular and he's still got over a dozen commander that are playing him 1/3 of the time or more, so clearly there's still a demand.
To be clear, a and b are requirements to me for a card to be "playable" outside of thematic or aesthetic reasons. C is what elevates a card from either good to great or great to format all-star. In this case, Counterspell is good and Mana Drain is great. Obviously, you're almost certainly going to play both, but in cEDH Counterspell proper doesn't really see play. Just as an example. Another example is Grim Tutor versus Demonic Tutor. I think Grimmy is good, but the gulf between it and Demonic is vast.
I don't even think A and B are good metrics either. Is what Serra Ascendant does good in EDH (i.e. attacking with evasion and lifelink?) Well, despite what some other forum members might say, I think we can both agree that a creature that just has a few keywords and attacks is, typically, not effective in commander. But serra ascendant breaks the pattern because it's so stupidly efficient at what it does, even though the thing it does broadly sucks.

Personally the metric I use for deciding inclusion in my commander collection is a one-step process:

1) Is this card potentially best-in-slot for any reasonable build of any commander?

If so, I buy that bad boy.

But that's how I differentiate between cards that see a lot of play despite being objectively bad, like Cancel, and cards that see less play but have a clear role, like Second Sunrise.

(and to clarify, "best in slot" doesn't mean I don't have counterspell just because mana drain exists - if I want 10 counterspells for a build, mana drain might take the first slot, but counterspell might be the best in slot for the 8th counterspell slot or whatever, once the other better counterspells have already been filled in).

("Reasonable build" means that I don't care about homarid tribal Morophon, the Boundless because I don't think it's a sensible deck. Same thing for theme decks like chair tribal or whatever.)
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Sunday, November 13th, 2022; Angelic Renewal


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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

I like the mechanical duality between this card and Grave Peril.

Edit: wrong card
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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

isn't that a combo card with Sun Titan?

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Post by NZB2323 » 1 year ago

I played this card in Ghen, Arcanum Weaver. It curves nice with Ghen, it protects him, and I can use it to cheat in cards like Captive Audience and Overwhelming Splendor.
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rg Morophon, the infinite Kavu Eowyn, human tribal Legolas, voltron control Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Ug Edric pauper

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

RedCheese wrote:
1 year ago
isn't that a combo card with Sun Titan?
Also Renegade Rallier
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

Outside the combo with Sun Titan (and similar cards), I'd be pretty hesitant to run Angelic Renewal over a reactive card like Brought Back, Teferi's Protection, or Sejiri Shelter // Sejiri Glacier. I think one of the main strengths of protective cards is the hidden information aspect. If your opponents know about your card, they can play around it, which means you're less likely to get full value from it. I suppose that you can get some value from using it as a rattlesnake to point your opponents' removal elsewhere, but the line between 'points removal elsewhere' and 'waits to use removal until they can power through the protection' is a thin one.

...of course, I generally follow the policy of 'let my stuff die and reanimate it later', so I'm probably not the target audience for this card in the first place. If I really care about protecting my stuff, I'll run Lightning Greaves instead.

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Post by Ruiner » 1 year ago

Definitely a big fan of this card. Synergy with Sun Titan is pretty well known, and it isn't a bad Hall of Heliod's Generosity target either.

I like just throwing it out into play so my opponents know they need two destroy effects if they want to bother removing anything of mine with non-exile effects, it lets me hold my mana open for other reactive stuff. Sometimes just telling people they have to deal with an obstacle can have a decent effect (as opposed to keeping your responses hidden).


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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I love angelic renewal. It was one of my first cool finds for enchantress decks. It's super nice that you can front load protection for your commander.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Monday, November 14th, 2022; Harvester of Souls|tsr


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Post by Outcryqq » 1 year ago

I missed Enduring Renewal day! "Back in my day", I loved combo'ing it with Aluren with creatures that care about dying. I run it in my Atog tribal deck to pump Atogatog infinitely, and I used it in a terrible legacy deck with those two and any altar for infinite mana.

Regarding today's card, Harvester of Souls, I like it! It's probably a bit power crept these days, but the card is optional unlike some other cards that might deck you from a big board wipe, and it's got relevant power/toughness and a relevant keyword. Solid source of card draw.

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