Miraculous Kaalia (Seeker of Zeniths)

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

MysticCrusader wrote:
2 years ago
You seem pretty stubborn about Volrath's Dungeon. What data show's us that it is not a viable option?!

I am just giving my input based upon playing a lot of Feather and knowing what makes that work.
Because it's a hand disruption effect in a multiplayer format? You don't have enough resources to hit everybody.
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Post by Cyberium » 2 years ago

MysticCrusader wrote:
2 years ago
You seem pretty stubborn about Volrath's Dungeon. What data show's us that it is not a viable option?!
He has a point about its power in a game involving 3+ players.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
2 years ago
MysticCrusader wrote:
2 years ago
You seem pretty stubborn about Volrath's Dungeon. What data show's us that it is not a viable option?!
He has a point about its power in a game involving 3+ players.
In 1v1, that could be quite potent indeed. But in 1v1 when you're up against Edric, no amount of disruption matters when they draw 3+/turn. God 1v1 commander is so %$#%$#% lol.
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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 2 years ago

So the idea I've had for a while for KZS is actually ADD token spam. I have a theory-brew list, which is probably bad, probably a little unfocused. /shrug
Kaalia Tokens!
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Zenith of Destruction

Her Clerics (2)


Mana (38)


38 Stuff
Approximate Total Cost:

Haven't sorted out the mana base yet. Slight CMC matters theme. Kaalia hits the 21 appropriate creatures, plus Crip Swap and Nameless Inversion. I need Top in here, I'm sure.

Angel Tokens - Serra and Resplendent Angel are the producers. Respy can boost itself to create the tokens, which is probably the last resort. Baneslayer and Lyra can spawn tokens by default, Lyra's and/or Serra's buffs boost most of the other angels to be able to make angel tokens.

Demon Tokens - The weakest token production. Looking over it again, perhaps Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath should be added. He creates tokens as well and even fuels life gain for Angel tokens. Priest of the Blood Rite blinking and/or reanimation is the main producer. Catastrophes is a sac outlet, Dark Schemes, hopefully Valkas Scourge, and Thunder Dragon wipe Priest away.

Dragon Tokens - A fun twist here. Rapacious creates the Treasure tokens for Ramp, and Lathliss creates the actual dragon tokens. Scourge burns away targets and Thundermaw clears the skies, Warkite reanimates some of the key creatures, and Thunder D wipes the ground.

All that being said, I have no idea if this is viable or if this is just jank that requires too many interactions to be good. Probably I'm just bad at the game :) lol. Kind of a fun thought experiment though.
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

I think that's actually a great take, although I have some thoughts;

If you're using the tribal removals, you really ought to add Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. Unlimited castings and hey, it's still a 3/3 you can pull out and red zone with. Entomb can help you put it where it belongs...

I don't think you have enough targets for Swift Warkite, though I appreciate seeing it. I bet Cauldron Dance is superior.

For the cycling spells, I kinda dig Deem Worthy. Expunge is pretty decent too.
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Post by Sanity_Eclipse » 2 years ago

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago
I think that's actually a great take, although I have some thoughts;

If you're using the tribal removals, you really ought to add Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. Unlimited castings and hey, it's still a 3/3 you can pull out and red zone with. Entomb can help you put it where it belongs...

I don't think you have enough targets for Swift Warkite, though I appreciate seeing it. I bet Cauldron Dance is superior.

For the cycling spells, I kinda dig Deem Worthy. Expunge is pretty decent too.
I'm a bit surprised at that, thank you. I thought it was gonna be absolute poo XD lol.

True. Haakon and Entomb should come in here. Gonna have a mini list of changes to make, starting with them.

Fair point on Warkite. I'd like to keep 7 of each A/D/D for aesthetic reasons. My first two replacement options for Warkite would be Demanding Dragon and Glorybringer|PAKH. Maybe Backdraft Hellkite, but probably not. Demanding seems a bit backbreaking with repeated blink-sliding, and Glory boy adds some more creature removal.

I should look through the cycling spells and their actual effects, see what I might need more of. Deem and Expunge are duly noted for this section.

Definite Adds / Considerations:
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
Entomb
Cauldron Dance
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath - I think he should really come in here. Life gain for Angel tokens, more Demon token production. Just not sure what'll come out.

Swaps:
Swift Warkite - Put in Demanding Dragon or Glorybringer
Maybe I could drop a land for something?

Considerations upon Review:
Deem Worthy
Expunge

Thank you as always for the input :)
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

I really dont like Ob Nix. You cant find him with your trigger and he's not very impressive for the cost. His + ability is about as useful as ticking a fart. I'd just run Abyssal Persecutor or Spawn of Mayhem really. Virtually anything else. Defiler of Souls seems to especially comes to mind.

Demanding Dragon is never going to work like you think it will. No. Stop. Don't. Whatever you're thinking, it's not going to happen (though it's a sweet 20 life card). I kinda dig Thunderbreak Regent.

I like Sunblast Angel a lot more than Resplendent Angel (whom isn't that impressive anyway) here, Just make sure you dont full tap when you try to proc it.

You've also got Mirror Entity, Taurean Mauler, & Cairn Wanderer which can be any type you happen to need.

Scroll of Fate is super saucy with astral slide. It'll replicate the interaction between slide and exalted angel, but for any creature in hand.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

Magister of Worth might be a decent alternative to Sunblast Angel.

Sunblast has always bothered me a bit for not hitting those value or toolbox creatures that never attack such as Oracle of Mul Daya or anything with vigilance. You can pretty much consider Magister to be a Wrath of God that skips herself. I wouldn't say she is strictly better but worth consideration. And every once and a while you get something like a Living Death effect.
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
2 years ago
Magister of Worth might be a decent alternative to Sunblast Angel.

Sunblast has always bothered me a bit for not hitting those value or toolbox creatures that never attack such as Oracle of Mul Daya or anything with vigilance. You can pretty much consider Magister to be a Wrath of God that skips herself. I wouldn't say she is strictly better but worth consideration. And every once and a while you get something like a Living Death effect.
I just don't know how unreliable this is. Like Browbeat cards, you will always get the effect you desire least when you leave it up to opponents. It would be a lot different if this was one of those council's dilemma effects...but it's not.
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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

It appears that people still consider Kaalia #2 should be played as #1, despite their differences in function.


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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

That's ridiculous. They're making false equivalencies because it "sounds like it fits" without actually actually brewing or thinking it through. And then this echo chamber gets perpetuated by others that don't bother brewing "because some guy says..."
Last edited by 3drinks 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by benjameenbear » 1 year ago

Clearly they aren't consulting the personal liaison to Kaalia. Silly people...

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

benjameenbear wrote:
1 year ago
Clearly they aren't consulting the personal liaison to Kaalia. Silly people...
Like, I'm not saying I'm the end all be all or anything, ofc not. But you've seen it too, a thousand spoilers and people say "this seems good in X" despite not playtesting an inch. It's asinine. You can't possibly know that without actual examination and research.
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Post by ThePillowman » 1 year ago

These lists look great!

Between Slide and Miracles, is Slide more budget-friendly? I'd love to build one of these but am working with fairly limited resources. Understood that Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top are auto-includes, I'll have to save up for them, but if there's other reasonable budget options you could call out i'd really appreciate it!

Also - can someone explain the infinite mana of Worldgorger Dragon? I've seen it mentioned a few times in this discussion and don't quite get it.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

ThePillowman wrote:
1 year ago
These lists look great!

Between Slide and Miracles, is Slide more budget-friendly? I'd love to build one of these but am working with fairly limited resources. Understood that Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top are auto-includes, I'll have to save up for them, but if there's other reasonable budget options you could call out i'd really appreciate it!

Also - can someone explain the infinite mana of Worldgorger Dragon? I've seen it mentioned a few times in this discussion and don't quite get it.
WGD exiles your board including animate dead, which kills the dragon and brings everything back. Including your lands and animate dead. Between every iteration of the loop you tap your lands to float the mana, thus creating the arbitrarily large amount of mana you need to input in some X effect. Like Cut // Ribbons for example, or an abnormally large Torment of Hailfire.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 1 year ago

Yo, cycling is getting ton of support in these next two sets! What do you think? Unpredictable Cyclone really piques my interest. Might be a good alternative to Sneak Attack for your build, idk....
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
1 year ago
Yo, cycling is getting ton of support in these next two sets! What do you think? Unpredictable Cyclone really piques my interest. Might be a good alternative to Sneak Attack for your build, idk....
Whoa. That's.......well, imagine cycling something into a free cast decree of annihilation.

I sold out of about 85% of my collection (turns out having nice painted cardboard means a lot less to you when you look at $16k sitting in the driveway) so I'm only on my white border deck and Kari Zev right now. But I'll be back to this deck I think, either in paper or digitally. - after I pay off my car. I did quite enjoy cycling Kaalia, and there is a lot of terrific cycling stuff in Ikoria.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

So there's a bunch of cycling support now. We're gonna need to do a big rewrite, but not now as I'm paying off a car. Should be back to this by q2 2021 by my estimation.

Thanks for your support.
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Post by NoirCroix » 1 year ago

Hey 3Drinks. I'm an avid Kaalia player and have been following your blog for a little while.

I recently came across a combo that I think is a little to costly, and maybe a little clunky, for Kaalia 1.0. I do think it works a little better in Kaalia 2.0. Basically it's Butcher of the Horde, Karmic Guide, and Terror of the Peaks. It seems a little more consistent in this Kaalia since she has the potential to find all 3 combo pieces on one activation.

Just for posterity the combo requires both Terror and Butcher on the battlefield. You cast Karmic Guide, have it enter, triggering both Karmic and Terror. Have Terror's ability resolve first dealing damage to an opponent, then while Karmic's etb trigger is on the stack, you sac it to Butcher. Karmic's etb then resolves targeting the Karmic that is now in the yard. Return it to the field and then rinse and repeat.

As I said, I know it's a little slow and clunky, but all pieces are pretty relavent in Kaalia 2.0. What are your thoughts on it?

Thanks for your time.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

NoirCroix wrote:
1 year ago
Hey 3Drinks. I'm an avid Kaalia player and have been following your blog for a little while.

I recently came across a combo that I think is a little to costly, and maybe a little clunky, for Kaalia 1.0. I do think it works a little better in Kaalia 2.0. Basically it's Butcher of the Horde, Karmic Guide, and Terror of the Peaks. It seems a little more consistent in this Kaalia since she has the potential to find all 3 combo pieces on one activation.

Just for posterity the combo requires both Terror and Butcher on the battlefield. You cast Karmic Guide, have it enter, triggering both Karmic and Terror. Have Terror's ability resolve first dealing damage to an opponent, then while Karmic's etb trigger is on the stack, you sac it to Butcher. Karmic's etb then resolves targeting the Karmic that is now in the yard. Return it to the field and then rinse and repeat.

As I said, I know it's a little slow and clunky, but all pieces are pretty relavent in Kaalia 2.0. What are your thoughts on it?

Thanks for your time.
This doesn't work because targets are declared as soon as the ability is put onto the stack. And, even if it did, for what you're doing you're better off doing a Worldgorger line with Terror of the Peaks/Bogardan Hellkite instead as it's more efficient and takes fewer slots to pull off.

I appreciate the fervour and zest for trying something new, but, unfortunately it just doesn't work.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 1 year ago

I do think Terror of the Peaks deserves some discussion. I feel that it's an auto-include in my Zenith Seeker build. Ordering one right now in fact!

Overall, my build has been doing pretty well and is a consistent threat at the table. It does struggle sometimes with card advantage and I am trying to find more ways to get that explosive card draw. When I can get Knollspine Dragon working, that's amazing, but failing that, I struggle to find the draw power I need.

I am considering something like Kothophed, Soul Hoarder.

I've really been liking Ruinous Ultimatum for this deck and is an absolute bomb every time I cast it. Similar in power level to Cyclonic Rift IMO, although there are more ways to get around it (indestructibility for example).
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Ofc, Terror checks every box with what we're trying to do here, ofc it belongs in the deck. And Karmic Guide does as well, because (at least I am) an astral slide deck, so this is right in our wheelhouse.

I'm at a point of new card fatigue, and I haven't even deciphered all the new cycling toys from c20 while also still in the middle of my Magic no-buy. When I've paid off this car note (I'm aggressively paying it down as we speak), I'll be back to this deck, and I'll merge this into my Primer to make one big Kaalia hub!
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

So i had a brainstorm the other day. First, once I decide on a direction and a sound ideal with all the sweet new cycling cards, I'll be moving this mini-primer to the Kaalia primer to act as one massive hub for all things Kaalia, since that's just my gimmick anyway. Ha.

Next is, similar to how I have my pre-modern Trynn & Silvar, I think I wanna take zenith seeker the other way and run only cards that have the Origins facelift only. Idk why, I've been on such a tremendous kick recently about making all my cards match. Of note I'd lose Mortuary from this list, but I think we can make do with some clever ingenuity.

Most importantly, the direction I had an epiphany for, is to take what we're doing here anyway, and turn it into an Approach of the Second Sun deck. I think we can do this easily since Kaalia's ability here clears the top six every time we trigger it, and Approach very specifically is the seventh card in. I love it, and this is going to be my focus over the next few weeks.
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