Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Combo Midrange

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BlackbirdPlaysMTG
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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Combo Midrange


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Table of Contents



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A Short Introduction


Let Me introduce Myself!

Let me introduce myself briefly before I dive into everything Liesa! My name is Tim/BlackbirdPlaysMTG and I am a Dutch Magic: The Gathering player. I have been playing MTG off and on since Onslaught (2002). Like many people casual kitchen-table magic was the first thing I played. When I moved to a new city to attend university I made the decision to start playing Standard in the local LGS and I really enjoy it - I dip my toes into all kinds of decks and strategies depending on the format. Now that Pioneer is a thing I have a deck for that too (Azorius Spirits). It took me a few years, but the 2015 "Swell the Host" precon (helmed by Ezuri, Claw of Progress) was my first foray into the wonderful world of multiplayer magic. Initially, I was not sure whether EDH would be compatible with my competitive mindset and I was not used to build decks to be used in a multiplayer setting. Turns out EDH and me are quite compatible! It is a lot of fun to play with friends or drop into a pod to play with new people. Deckbuilding and upgrading existing decks is something I really enjoy too. Putting together a functioning list around a theme or commander is great fun. I feel most comfortable in EDH when it comes to green-based strategies - but I have been diversifying as of lately. I am always brewing up and testing out new stuff - you can find my experiments on my Archidekt page and some of my currently played decks in my forum signature.



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Commander Analysis/Alternate Commanders


Why Play Liesa, Shroud of Dusk?

What makes playing Liesa attractive to me is the fact that she is just a really solid and efficient creature. Add some cool art, an interesting name and the ever-popular Angel tag to it, and you have a legendary with a lot of EDH-potential. People seem to like her as an option - she was released in the November 2020 Commander Legends set and she is currently the 2nd-most popular Orzhov commander leading 9084 decklists on EDHREC at the time of editing.

She fills a gap in the Orzhov selection of feasible commanders: she is a great proactive beatstick that does not need much work! A five mana 5/5 flier with lifelink is a pretty good deal already. Add to that a potent tax-y ability, and your opponent's life points will start dropping pretty quickly. The deal becomes even sweeter because she evades commander tax at the expensive of some life points, which means that if she gets killed you can bring her back pretty easily. Paying her lifedrain tax yourself is not the end of the world as we can easily break parity on that. Liesa herself gains you a bunch of life back every time she connects and there are other ways in the deck to gain your life back.

Because Liesa is relatively open-ended you can build a deck with her in several different ways, which probably adds to her popularity. You could go for a midrange build were she functions as a threat and damage-dealer, but you can also build her as a punisher, lifegain, tribal or even voltron deck. You can also build an effective version of Liesa on a budget; I will provide one such decklist in the Budget section.



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Deck Philosophy


How Did I Arrive At This Specific Build Of Liesa?

Coming soon!



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Current Decklist


Decklist Sorted By Role & CMC

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:

Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Old Build
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Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Old Build

Commander

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Budget Decklist



Coming soon!

Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Budget (Sorted by Role & CMC)

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:




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Deck Strategy





Midgame: turn 4-6
Midgame
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Endgame: turn 7+
Endgame
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Card Choice Discussion (Update Needed)



Coming soon!


Creatures
Creatures
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  • Alms Collector - A filthy simic player wants to draw a bazillion cards? This guy got you covered. Can be flashed in or played on curve.
  • Angel of Finality - Can make the graveyard player cry and swing through the air.
  • Archon of Emeria - A new card from Commander Legends. New Thalia and Rule of Law combined, and an evasive body to top it off, Makes our opponents play fair white-style magic.
  • Aven Mindcensor - Great disruption in a meta with many fetches and tutors.
  • Baneslayer Angel - A five mana 5/5 with flying and lifelink. Great efficient threat that can swing alongside our commander.
  • Cartographer's Hawk - Quickly becoming a pet card of mine. It is like a recurrable but slow Rampant Growth.
  • Divinity of Pride - Generally, this will be a five mana 8/8 flying lifelink. Great addition to our suite of beaters.
  • Gonti, Lord of Luxury - For four mana you get to pick a card from your opponents deck. This is a type of card I really enjoy playing in EDH, as it adds an element of surprise and creates interesting situations. The 2/3 deathtouch body is good for keeping aggression at bay. Great midrange card.
  • Grave Titan - Grave Titan is an efficient beater that creates his own army. He comes together with a pair of zombies, and everytime he swings you get another pair. Liesa likes efficient beaters.
  • Kambal, Consul of Allocation - His ability is very similar to Liesa's, but only triggers on (your opponents) noncreature spells. It comes with lifegain as well. He can do quite a bit of damage by himself and when paired with Liesa damage adds up very quickly.
  • Keeper of the Accord - Another new card. This card allows white-based decks to keep up with green's ramping shenanigans. It also provides some chumpers every now and then. Be mindful that Keeper triggers on every opponents end step!
  • Kunoros, Hound of Athreos - A 3/3 menace vigilane lifelink with some stax-y abilities stapled on it. Great card.
  • Lyra Dawnbringer - Baneslayer Angel #2 that also buffs your commander by +1/+1. Great beater.
  • Mother of Runes - Mother of Runes can protect your commander or key creatures. Sure, Liesa can always be cast for five, but keeping her on the battlefield is even better.
  • Seraph of the Scales - A solid on curve beater. For four mana you can swing for four every turn. She also comes with potential vigilance/deathtouch, which can deter opponents from attacking you.
  • Serra Ascendant - A one mana 6/6 flying lifelink? Perfect fit for this deck... and cheesy.
  • Sun Titan - Good old Sun Titan is an efficient beater/blocker that can recur a lot of the creatures and permanents that this deck plays.
  • Verge Rangers - Verge Ranges helps us out by drawing lands of the top straight into play.
  • Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose - This card presents a lot of damage paired with our lifelink beaters. With his activated ability you can also give beaters like the pair of Titans lifelink to bring the pain.
  • Vizkopa Guildmage - Vizkopa Guildmage is similar to Vito, but damages every opponent. It will cost you three mana though. It can also provide creatures with lifelink. Great mana sink.
  • Weathered Wayfarer - Weathered Wayfarer can help find the utility lands and make sure we hit our land drops by drawing them out of the deck.


Sorceries
Sorceries
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  • Austere Command - A somewhat expensive wipe, but it is versatile and potentially asymetrical.
  • Demonic Tutor - Excellent tutor that does not really need an introduction. Pay and tutor anything to your hand.
  • Dismantling Wave - A great card early that can set your opponents back when you remove their precious mana rocks. Later on, you can target powerful engines or even pay eight and blow all artifacts and enchantments to bits.
  • Grim Tutor - Slightly less cost-efficient than Demonic Tutor, but still a really great tutor.
  • Night's Whisper - Sometimes all you need is a card that says pay two, draw two. Can easily be woven into your curve.
  • Read the Bones - Card advantage and selection for three mana. Just a very solid card.
  • Sevinne's Reclamation - We are running quite a few creatures and enchantments that cost three or less. I am not going deep when it comes to recursion in this list, but this is an efficient option that I could not pass on.
  • Toxic Deluge - Efficiently-costed boardwipe. Can also get rid of those annoying Ulamogs and Blightsteels that can potentially ruin your day.


Instants
Instants
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  • Akroma's Will - New card from Commander Legends. Seems like a flexible option that can protect your board or act as a finishing-type card. You do need to keep four mana open, so I am curious how it will perform.
  • Anguished Unmaking - Three mana exile anything. Seems good.
  • Despark - Low-costed removal that could potentially get rid of a lot off scary stuff. A bit meta dependent though.
  • Enlightened Tutor - Good white tutor. Can get you a sol ring early to get Liesa out there, or get something like Greed later in the game to refuel your hand.
  • Generous Gift - Three mana destroy anything is good. Giving your opponent a 3/3 elephant is not the end of the world.
  • Heliod's Intervention - Scaleable artifact and enchantment removal that is decently costed. The second mode combos with Vizkopa Guildmage and Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose.
  • Kaya's Guile - You will probably mainly use the first two modes, but it can also create a chump blocker in an instant. Getting rid of three creatures for three is really good, especially if one of them happens to be a commander.
  • Oblation - Oblation is a card I personally really like. It can get rid of something problematic without creating a death trigger or it could be used to draw some cards yourself in a pinch.
  • Swords to Plowshares - Solid removal. It does gain someone a bit of life back, but that should not matter in the grand scheme of things. I probably should run its cousin Path to Exile as well.
  • Teferi's Protection - This card is bonkers. Save your own team/permanents by cheesing yourself out of a wipe, cheat yourself out of losing to a game winning combo/swing, etc...


Enchantments
Enchantments
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  • Aura of Silence - Strong stax piece. Basically affects all your opponents since everyone plays artifacts (and enchantments). It can also function as removal and in response to it being removed you can still target something.
  • Authority of the Consuls - Slows down our opponents and the amount of blockers they have.
  • Blind Obedience - Like Authority, blocking becomes a bit harder for our opponents. It also slows down opponents who rely on artifact ramp and comes with a neat extort ability to get in a few points of extra damage.
  • Bloodchief Ascension - Cheap, mean card in Liesa. Online in no time.
  • Court of Ambition - I really like monarch cards. They invite players to be a bit more aggressive, which is a good thing for this deck. Court of Ambition is great because it comes with a strong damaging effect.
  • Court of Grace - The white court is probably a bit weaker in this deck than the black one, but it creates its own creatures to take back the crown again. Potentially making a 4/4 beater every turn is good.
  • Cradle of Vitality - This card his been in my collection for so long and I really liked the design. It plays nicely with all the lifelink beaters and the occassional lifegain effects in this deck.
  • Dawn of Hope - Paired with lifegain/lifelink you can pay and draw a card. Not great, not terrible. It also comes with the abilty to create a 1/1 lifelink token for which can then trigger its primary ability.
  • Greed[/card] - You pay up front, and then just for every card you draw! The lifeloss not as detrimental for this deck, since you often gain a bunch too. Try to make sure that you can draw some cards when you play this card. Paying four only to see it being removed feels bad.
  • Land Tax - A crown jewel in EDH suite of white. Get all the plains!
  • Light of Promise - Light of promise fulfills a role very similar to Cradle of Vitality. Grow a creature really quickly. It can also be recurred by Sun Titan and Sevinne's Reclamation, which is nice.
  • Painful Quandary - Dealing five damage to an opponent is just nasty, as is them discarding a card.
  • Phyrexian Arena - Just a solid and cheap source of card advantage. Pay three once and reap the benefits. It is a bit slow, but the cards will add up quickly. After two cards the deal is decent and it becomes really good after that.
  • Phyrexian Reclamation - Do NOT play this card on turn one without any targets. You want to use it to get at least one creature back to your hand when you play it.
  • Rule of Law - Many decks in my meta like to play multiple cards a turn and kinda disregard the combat phase. This deck has some mana sinks and likes to get in there for combat damage. Everyone suddenly pays fair, but you get to do just a little bit more.
  • Sunbond - A Light of Promise that costs more.


Artifacts
Artifacts
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Lands
Lands
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You don't need to include Basic lands or lands that tap for colors. But if you have specific utility lands that are important to your deck, we recommend your describe why you're running them!
  • Bojuka Bog - The only tapped land I play in this list. The effect is just really strong and really put some brakes on certain decks in my meta.
  • Shizo, Death's Storehouse - Great card that can give Liesa more evasion when she needs it. Does not enter tapped and gives access to black.
  • Vault of the Archangel - Vault can be used as a sink to gain some extra life, or defensively. Have some creatures and mana open as blockers, and nobody will send their big boys your way.
  • Volrath's Stronghold - Your efficient beaters can die, but Volrath's Stronghold makes sure that they will soon be bashing your opponents' faces in again.




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Credit & Thanks



Coming soon!



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Primer History



Dear Diary,

December 5th, 2020
Liesa, Shroud of Dusk was spoiled in the new Commander Legends set that was released on November 20th 2020. The amount of solitaire decks I have been playing in the past made me a bit worn-out on Magic. You keep playing the same combo lines over and over, especially if your meta is not all that interactive and you can just cast whatever. A good opportunity to change my approach to Magic! Liesa seems like a great commander for me. She gives me the opportunity to play black (which I have never played before) and white (which I like almost as much as green).

February 23rd, 2021
Well, I did it. I sold off almost my entire collection and the EDH decks that I still owned over the past two weeks. Wasn't sure if this was the right decision, but now it feels like it is. I have been goldfishing and playing Liesa over Cockatrice in the past few weeks and ordered the decklist that I am currently running. I even have enough cash left from the sales to buy new cards for testing. The first few packages came in today and I hope that I will have all the cards by the end of next week!

March 14th, 2024
I am currently cleaning up the Liesa thread and updating the decklist. I have been taking the deck into a different direction for a while now. I put the old decklist in a spoiler for the people curious what my starting point was, but the deck has evolved significantly.



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Changelog


Changelog 09/01/2021
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Made the first batch of changes to my initial list. I am also looking for spots for Resplendent Angel and Valkyrie Harbinger (Kaldheim). This deck should be quite flexible in terms of what kind of hate/threats you want to play depending on your meta.

The Changes:

- Dawn of Hope: Not efficient enough, Orzhov can do better in terms of card draw.
- Grave Titan: Titan is big and efficient, but Archangel of Thune is more on theme and probably stronger in this deck.
- Blackblade Reforged: I do not think that Liesa needs damage-increasing equipment on top of Light of Promise and Sunbond. The plan is dealing damage, but not necessarily voltronning with Liesa.
- Plains (2x): Removed some basics for quality lands.
- Swamp (x3): Removed some basics for quality lands.

+ Archangel of Thune: A strong threat that works well in tandem with Liesa/other lifelinkers and incidental lifegain. Thematical bonus points for Archangel being an angel.
+ Wound Reflection: Great finisher! Synergises with my commander, other beaters and cards like Bloodchief Ascension.
+ Lightning Greaves: Flexible piece of equipment that can give my commander, beaters or utility creatures haste, or let them get into the red zone for combat damage directly.
+ Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt: Can be played as a land that generates black (lifeloss is not that relevant) and can be used in the lategame to get some creatures back from the graveyard for another round.
+ Emeria's Call // Emeria, Shattered Skyclave: Can be played as a land that generates white (lifeloss is not that relevant) and can be used in the lategame to generate two evasive beaters.
+ City of Brass: Access to both black and white seems good.
+ Mana Confluence: See the above.
+ War Room: I do not want to play too many lands that cannot generate colours, but this can be fetched by Weathered Wayfarer and provide me with some extra draw later in the game.
Changelog 21/02/2021
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Made a few small tweaks to the current decklist and ordered it in paper!

The Changes:

- Alms Collector: Was not too relevant during the games I played. If you play in a meta with a lot of burst draw, this card is really good at shutting your opponents off.
- Grim Tutor: Just a little bit too inefficient. Took it out and added the leaner option Vampiric Tutor.
- Sunbond: Solid card during the games I played it, but I think playing a single copy in Light of Promise should be good enough.
- Swamp: Swapped a Swamp for a Plains.
- Teferi's Protection: Teferi's Protection is good, but I feel that I would rather play a free Flawless Maneuver. I also value the power of Akroma's Will more.
- Verge Rangers: Someone said it was basically 'bad draw' in my deck. Currently I do not have many ways to refresh the top of my deck, so the amount of lands that I will be able to play from the top is limited.

+ Angelic Field Marshal Basically a four mana 5/5 flier that gives the team vigilance to avoid counterattacks. Should be efficient enough as a beater.
+ Bloodgift Demon: A nice 5/3 flying beater with a Phyrexian Arena stapled onto it, let's give it a try.
+ Eradicator Valkyrie A lean 4/3 lifelink vigilance beater with a slow but powerful removal option stapled on it.
+ Flawless Maneuver: This card protects the most relevant card type of my deck (creatures) for free. Free things are always good right?
+ Plains: Swapped a Swamp for a plain.
+ Vampiric Tutor: Great instant tutor for a single black.
Changelog 18/12/2021
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I do not want to give up on Liesa after all. Made some small changes, but not sure what direction I want to take the deck in yet.

The Changes:

- Cartographer's Hawk: Cute little hawk made place for a two mana rock. Might find his way back in?
- Eradicator Valkyrie: Not too impactful I feel.
- Gonti, Lord of Luxury: Does not really contribute to the overal gameplan. Was included as filler.
- Keeper of the Accord: Does not really ramp towards many cards. I'd rather run a bunch of extra two-mana rocks.
- Kunoros, Hound of Athreos: Hmmm.... I have not played against many graveyard based strategies so far. The body is not too impactful. Out for now.
- Seraph of the Scales: Flavourful angel, but does not really contribute much.

+ Charcoal Diamond: Including some extra ramp to get to my top end quicker and more consistently.
+ Coldsteel Heart: Including some extra ramp to get to my top end quicker and more consistently.
+ Marble Diamond: Including some extra ramp to get to my top end quicker and more consistently.
+ Rune-Scarred Demon: Tutor and beatstick to top off the curve together with Vilis.
+ Swiftfoot Boots: Already included the Lightning Greaves. I think the Boots are worth including too.
+ Vilis, Broker of Blood: Synergises nicely with Liesa's ability. Come swith a hefty mana cost though. Let's test it out.
Changelog 14/03/2024
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The Changes:

This decklist has been altered dramatically and is now being taken into a different direction, so I decided to put up a new decklist. The main reason for this change of heart is that I wanted to make the deck more powerful, impactful and interactive. Old decklist/starting point can still be found below the main decklist for those who are curious what the first iteration looked like.


*****Credit for this Primer Template belongs to all members of the Primer Committee*****
Last edited by BlackbirdPlaysMTG 2 weeks ago, edited 100 times in total.

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

With all the lifelink in the deck, do you have room for an Archangel of Thune? Additionally, this could be a good deck for Indulging Patrician and Silversmote Ghoul.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
With all the lifelink in the deck, do you have room for an Archangel of Thune? Additionally, this could be a good deck for Indulging Patrician and Silversmote Ghoul.
Thank you for the suggestions! I think Archangel of Thune is neat addition to the top end of my deck. Archangel + my commander/another lifelinker means +2/+2 to my team every turn, which is a decent deal even if those are the only two creatures (+4/+4 in total).

I can see Indulging Patrician work in a very aggressive build of Liesa, but I am not sure if she is good enough in a slightly slower midrange build like mine. If Liesa or another lifelinker is on the battlefield, she presents 9 damage with her abilty every turn, which is quite neat. She sort of fits into the same category as Vizkopa Guildmage and Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose I feel. She has a slightly higher floor, but a lower ceiling.

I do not like Silversmote Ghoul, it is a really slow card and I think there a lot of better card draw options around.
Last edited by BlackbirdPlaysMTG 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by capitacommunist » 3 years ago

Nice deck, Liesa seems like a very fun commander!
I very much second Archangel of Thune - in my experience she overperforms even with few other lifelink creatures, whereas in your list you play quite a number. Also worth noting that she interacts very well with Baneslayer Angel / Lyra Dawnbringer, as they pump your team before the rest of the team deals damage due to first strike.
Resplendent Angel would work quite well here I think as a cheap angel that can put a lot of pressure in. Even if you may not be able to cast it on curve, Necropotence would be very strong in your list. Tymna the Weaver would also be a good way to draw cards as a lot of your creatures have evasion, and Tymna also has lifelink.
Imp's Mischief could also be quite fun, and the life loss should not be to significant/difficult to manage.
Rule of Law seems somewhat counterproductive as you also want people to cast spells (and pay life for it). Maybe Trinisphere would be a good alternative that slows down decks playing a lot of cheap spells (of which you don't have too many)?
True Conviction could also be a good finisher in your deck; especially when you have Archangel of Thune out!.
Dawn of Hope is another card I would cut; in black you have many more efficient ways to draw cards than a conditional draw for two mana, and as a mana sink 4 mana for one token is a very weak rate.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

capitacommunist wrote:
3 years ago
Nice deck, Liesa seems like a very fun commander!
I very much second Archangel of Thune - in my experience she overperforms even with few other lifelink creatures, whereas in your list you play quite a number. Also worth noting that she interacts very well with Baneslayer Angel / Lyra Dawnbringer, as they pump your team before the rest of the team deals damage due to first strike.
Resplendent Angel would work quite well here I think as a cheap angel that can put a lot of pressure in. Even if you may not be able to cast it on curve, Necropotence would be very strong in your list. Tymna the Weaver would also be a good way to draw cards as a lot of your creatures have evasion, and Tymna also has lifelink.
Imp's Mischief could also be quite fun, and the life loss should not be to significant/difficult to manage.
Rule of Law seems somewhat counterproductive as you also want people to cast spells (and pay life for it). Maybe Trinisphere would be a good alternative that slows down decks playing a lot of cheap spells (of which you don't have too many)?
True Conviction could also be a good finisher in your deck; especially when you have Archangel of Thune out!.
Dawn of Hope is another card I would cut; in black you have many more efficient ways to draw cards than a conditional draw for two mana, and as a mana sink 4 mana for one token is a very weak rate.
Thank you! I think Liesa is a great fit for my meta, we need something that speeds up the games a bit and gets combat damage back on the menu.

Great suggestions. Resplendent Angel is a neat addition to the deck. She provides some pressure on curve and synergises well with the commander and some of the other cards in the deck. She also comes with her own manasink, which a neat little bonus. Necropotence and Tymna are obviously great and efficient (staple) additions, and stronger than a card like Dawn of Hope. Imp's Mischief is a cool interaction piece, but also a bit narrow. True Conviction I am not sure about. I guess it is similar to a card like Wound Reflection. Wound Reflection will deal more damage during a game (also counts Liesa's ability for example), while True Conviction will gain you a bunch of extra life when you attack because of the lifelink/double strike.

I have actually had the same considerations when I was thinking about the inclusion of Rule of Law. It seems counterintuitive. The reason for me to include the card anyway is because I do not necessarily want my opponents to cast a lot of spells. In the best case scenario, I want to slow them down with Rule of Law/Archon of Emeria, while hitting them in the face with creatures. If Rule of Law/Archon of Emeria are not on the battlefield, Liesa at least lowers their life total a bit. I break parity on the cast limitation myself, because I include the action of hitting face (something most decks in my meta do not really do) and just want to play a 'fair' midrange game. Rule of Law is way more debilitating for the Chulane player for example.
Last edited by BlackbirdPlaysMTG 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

Small update here. Working on my Liesa primer-in-progress and made some changes to the decklist, which you can in the spoiler below (also still considering some of the suggestions from above like Tymna):
Changelog 09/01/2021
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Made the first batch of changes to my initial list. I am also looking for spots for Resplendent Angel and Valkyrie Harbinger (Kaldheim). This deck should be quite flexible in terms of what kind of hate/threats you want to play depending on your meta.

The Changes:

- Dawn of Hope: Not efficient enough, Orzhov can do better in terms of card draw.
- Grave Titan: Titan is big and efficient, but Archangel of Thune is more on theme and probably stronger in this deck.
- Blackblade Reforged: I do not think that Liesa needs damage-increasing equipment on top of Light of Promise and Sunbond. The plan is dealing damage, but not necessarily voltronning with Liesa.
- Plains (2x): Removed some basics for quality lands.
- Swamp (x3): Removed some basics for quality lands.

+ Archangel of Thune: A strong threat that works well in tandem with Liesa/other lifelinkers and incidental lifegain. Thematical bonus points for Archangel being an angel.
+ Wound Reflection: Great finisher! Synergises with my commander, other beaters and cards like Bloodchief Ascension.
+ Lightning Greaves: Flexible piece of equipment that can give my commander, beaters or utility creatures haste, or let them get into the red zone for combat damage directly.
+ Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt: Can be played as a land that generates black (lifeloss is not that relevant) and can be used in the lategame to get some creatures back from the graveyard for another round.
+ Emeria's Call // Emeria, Shattered Skyclave: Can be played as a land that generates white (lifeloss is not that relevant) and can be used in the lategame to generate two evasive beaters.
+ City of Brass: Access to both black and white seems good.
+ Mana Confluence: See the above.
+ War Room: I do not want to play too many lands that cannot generate colours, but this can be fetched by Weathered Wayfarer and provide me with some extra draw later in the game.
If you have any comments regarding my decklist or this topic, please do voice them!
Last edited by BlackbirdPlaysMTG 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

I also have a Liesa deck and a few cards you may want to consider are:

Shattered Angel - This can gain you a pretty significant amount of life while your opponents generally aren't going to bother with wasting resources to single target eliminate it.
Gray Merchant of Asphodel - Even with this not being a monoblack deck you are still generally getting some decent value out of this card.
Twilight Prophet - Totally fits the goals of the deck with everything that triggered ability does.
Erebos, God of the Dead - Shuts off enemy lifegain and is a decent source of card draw with the potential to be a beater as well.
Athreos, God of Passage - With all of the life drain punishing aspects of the deck, you can just pick on whoever has the lowest life total and have a decent chance of getting a creature back.
Nightshade Harvester - This is a very recent addition to my deck and I haven't actually had a chance to see it in action yet (haven't played since adding it) but I think in theory it might be okay or it might end up getting cut.
Ankh of Mishra - This affects you also, but with the lifegain in the deck you offset that pretty well and it really punishes enemies who are ramping.
Tainted Sigil - It's a one shot effect but based on other cards in the deck it can be a pretty big swing (especially with a card like Vito out).
Exsanguinate - More mass lifegain/lifelosss
Debt to the Deathless - More mass lifegain/lifeloss
Beacon of Immortality - Generally just a decent effect by itself (not amazing but doubling your lifetotal can buy you a heck of a lot of time). With Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose in play this is likely to kill someone, with Vizkopa Guildmage in play it potentially kills everyone (this is mana intensive but this deck is generally not rushing for a quick win anyway).
Tainted Remedy - If you decide to play Beacon on of Immortality, this combos great with it and if you generally see a smattering of opposing lifegain effects it is rather useful. It gives enemies playing black a bit of a fit since it shuts down a number of their big effects. I've always liked this card, it may not be for everyone and depends on what your general playgroup/meta runs..
Tithe - Just an overall decent card to help make sure you are hitting land drops in this color combo.
Dark Ritual - This is a matter of personal preference as it is a one shot ramp effect but powering out some of the enchantments/artifacts and even Liesa herself a bit earlier than expected can be a big deal. Not everyone is a fan of this sort of thing but I think it is worth it.
Merciless Eviction - This one is always worthy of considering in a B/W deck. I rarely regret drawing this and it has saved me a ton.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

Hey Ruiner,

Thanks for your comment! Do you have your own Liesa decklist online somewhere? I am curious how it looks. I think you are trying to go a little bit bigger/combo than me. Cards like Shattered Angel, Tainted Sigil, Tainted Remedy, Debt to the Deathless, Beacon of Immortality and Exsanguinate need more setup, and probably more mana to work. For how much do you cast cards like Debt to the Deathless and Exsanguinate, and find them 'good enough'?

I have been considering Dark Ritual and Tithe. I am a big fan of Tithe in mono white, but I think I do not really need to card in this deck. Dark Ritual is something I would like to include when I include some other fast mana options. It would make the deck a bit more aggressive/explosive. If I would have the money to spare it is definitely something I would consider. Ankh of Mishra is a good card if you want to go a bit deeper into punisher territory.

Erebos seems like a nice meta call, but I am usually the lifegain player :P. Athreos and Twilight Prophet are cards I would like to try out. Turning Athreos online so he can start swinging as well should not be too hard for the deck and Twilight Prophet seems like juicy. Average CMC is 2.00 if I count lands as well, so on average it will deal 6 damage a turn, heal me for 2, swing for 2 and draw me a card. With Sensei's Divining Top and Volrath's Stronghold I could even manipulate things a little and put a five drop on top 😎.

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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

My list currently is:
Liesa, Shroud of Dusk

Commander

Draw/Tutor Sorcery & Instants

Misc. Sorceries & Instants

Approximate Total Cost:

A few cards in there I have not actually tested yet as I have changed the deck up a bit since last I played it.
Underworld Dreams - I'm already punishing so much, hitting people for every card drawn seems like it should be decent and it helps with devotion for the two gods and Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Nightshade Harvester - This one may or may not work out but it seems decent to at least try a third land punisher.
Nullpriest of Oblivion - It's a cheap beater to hold equipment that has lifelink and can resurrect stuff in a pinch. It's actually been in the deck for some time but I never seem to draw it.
Light of Promise - Legitimately had just never seen this card before for whatever reason but it seems like a great addition to the deck.

Hall of Heliod's Generosity should probably be in this deck with all of the enchantments included in my list but I just haven't gotten around to adjusting the manabase to include it.

My deck isn't completely focused in a particular direction, trying to have multiple angles of attack and it generally seems to work out pretty well. It can kill with commander damage, chipping away with punisher effects and life drain with some creature beats, and a few combo kills present in the deck as well. I like not knowing exactly how I'm going to try to win every game before it begins with this deck. Even with the potential combo kills the components are all useful on their own so if they just happen to work out together that's cool but I'm not necessarily shooting for a combo kill (I'd have more tutors in the deck if that was my goal).

Axis of Mortality is probably a card people would overlook at a glance but it can have some great results. Alone it just keeps you at the highest life total or makes the oppoment who has the highest life become the lowest to get in good striking range, but if Tainted Remedy, Wound Reflection, or Erebos, God of the Dead are in play you can use it pretty offensively.

Exquisite Blood is probably notably missing, I just got sick of seeing that combo with Sanguine Bond when friends have played that combo over the years and have purposefully left it out of my deck.

This deck actually used to be another deck of mine that I've since adapted when Liesa was spoiled so the core of it has been played for a few years but I've leaned more into punisher aspects now with Liesa at the helm.

I don't generally try to get that big mana huge Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless off every game, sometimes just hitting everyone for 4 or 5 can make a big difference, even when not game ending it is a huge swing in life totals that helps me live longer.

I've got a decent amount of slightly higher mana cost cards in the deck but have enough slowing/delaying stax-ish cards like Rule of Law, Drannith Magistrate, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Authority of the Consuls, etc., combined with a decent removal suite that help me get into a longer game where I can afford to play those cards.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

Nice decklist, seems well-rounded to me. I think the biggest difference between our decklists/gameplan is that I am running more beaters to win through combat damage (Lyra, Baneslayer, etc.), whereas you are a bit deeper into punishing territory with cards like Underworld Dreams, Sanguine Bond, and run combo options/table drain (and heal). Giving you kudo's for running Beacon of Immortality, I play it in Atalya and it is awesome. I have considered running Hall of Heliod's Generosity as well, but since none of my enchantments are truly key I decided against it. I do not want to run too much colourless sources of mana. My creatures are way more important, so Volrath's Stronghold did make the cut. Nullpriest of Oblivon is actually a really cool card. I completely overlooked it I think. Lifelink, a form of evasion, can bring utility, stax or a beater... seems like a great fit. I wil pick one up since they are only 10 eurocents, see how it plays :).

I was running Sunbond in my mono-white lifegain list, but I did not know about Light of Promise. When I looked for similar effects I was surprised that I overlooked this card in M21. The great thing about it is that it can be recurred by Sun Titan and Sevinne's Reclamation (I sort of want to start running fetches for Sevinne's Reclamation, turn it into a ramp spell as well). I think Light of promise is great, creatures tend to grow really quick. On a lifelinker things get out of control really quickly, but sometimes I just throw it on a utility creature and turn it into a threat. Spread my stats.

Have to admit, Axis of Mortality confused me a bit initially, but after looking through your decklist more closely I realised that you could combine it with a number of cards in your deck to deal a good chunk of damage or put people in killing range by itself if someone has a low life total. Pretty spicy. And yeah... I feel the same way about Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond. I find them lame (but will probably change my mind later), but of course they are great additions to the deck if you want to go for them.

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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

I could definitely see swinging more into a creature beatdown angle as being viable. I tend to endlessly tinker with my decks so I may go more in that direction at some point.

Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Reclamation are hard for me avoid automatically including in nearly every deck I have with black. Even with just a moderate amount of creatures they end up being super useful.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

UPDATE

Made a few small changes in the current decklist and ordered it in paper!
Changelog 21/02/2021
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The Changes:

- Alms Collector: Was not too relevant during the games I played. If you play in a meta with a lot of burst draw, this card is really good at shutting your opponents off.
- Grim Tutor: Just a little bit too inefficient. Took it out and added the leaner option Vampiric Tutor.
- Sunbond: Solid card during the games I played it, but I think playing a single copy in Light of Promise should be good enough.
- Swamp: Swapped a Swamp for a Plains.
- Teferi's Protection: Teferi's Protection is good, but I feel that I would rather play a free Flawless Maneuver. I also value the power of Akroma's Will more.
- Verge Rangers: Someone said it was basically 'bad draw' in my deck. Currently I do not have many ways to refresh the top of my deck, so the amount of lands that I will be able to play from the top is limited.

+ Angelic Field Marshal Basically a four mana 5/5 flier that gives the team vigilance to avoid counterattacks. Should be efficient enough as a beater.
+ Bloodgift Demon: A nice 5/3 flying beater with a Phyrexian Arena stapled onto it, let's give it a try.
+ Eradicator Valkyrie A lean 4/3 lifelink vigilance beater with a slow but powerful removal option stapled on it.
+ Flawless Maneuver: This card protects the most relevant card type of my deck (creatures) for free. Free things are always good right?
+ Plains: Swapped a Swamp for a plain.
+ Vampiric Tutor: Great instant tutor for a single black.

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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

Seems like some pretty reasonable changes. Personally I've been a fan of Verge Rangers in various decks but I get that the card isn't for everyone.

Have you ever considered Command Beacon? Normally I don't put it in decks but I've had a few games where "commander life tax" has prevented me from recasting Liesa, Shroud of Dusk, so I'm giving it a shot. You run more lifegain than I do so maybe it'd be less useful.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

Ruiner wrote:
3 years ago
Seems like some pretty reasonable changes. Personally I've been a fan of Verge Rangers in various decks but I get that the card isn't for everyone.

Have you ever considered Command Beacon? Normally I don't put it in decks but I've had a few games where "commander life tax" has prevented me from recasting Liesa, Shroud of Dusk, so I'm giving it a shot. You run more lifegain than I do so maybe it'd be less useful.
I think Verge Rangers are pretty solid in lists that are able to manipulate the top through tutoring, fetching, sensei's divining top, etc. My current list runs a few tutors, but that is not enough to make Verge Rangers consistent enough I feel.

Personally do not want to run too many colourless sources, (currently running three and that is probably the maximum for me). Casting her again has never been a real issue for me... I often face decks that are not reliant on combat and if I face other aggressive decks I can generally outcompete them thanks to my lifelinkers. I do notice that Liesa draws quite a bit of hate, even to the point of irrationality. Is she often the prime target at your table?

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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

I've definitely noticed a bit of irrational targeting of Liesa. Even from decks that just play 1 or 2 cards a turn, not just the spell slingers looking to cast a bunch every turn. I've had a few games where the life tax hits 8 after a long grinding game, which can be tough (I once had to use Beacon of Immortality when I had a single digit life total just to be able to cast Liesa and not die). It isn't a problem every game of course.

My singles preorder for Kaldheim came in recently so I'm definitely going to be revising some things soon. Valkyrie Harbinger seems super worthwhile to try to fit in, and the extra lifelink source definitely won't hurt.

I totally get wanting to minimize the colorless lands.

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Post by EonAon » 3 years ago

Gisela, the Broken Blade Don't need the other creature for meld, just her. Since first strike, lifelink, and flying are pretty efficient on a 4cc creature. Kinda $ though.
Fumigate
Kaya's Wrath wraths that gain you life to fuel the beast

I'm personally tempted by Crypt Ghast just to get more off exsanguinate and debt with a touch of extra mana and a decent extort.
I also agree that the exquisite blood combo, while it works, is just too much cheese.

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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

I've been following this thread since the beginning. I dig your idea of heavy beaters with lifelink and a very mild stax subtheme. My deck is unfortunately very convoluted and unfocused at the moment as I'm having a hard time deciding which way I want to take it: lifegain, big mana, hatebears & stax, ughhh. I think it's analysis paralysis as I've printed up a bunch of proxies and have been playtesting A LOT against my other decks in a 1 v 1 fashion, for now. I tend to enjoy playing faster decks, so this is a break for me and perhaps that's why I'm struggling. What I didn't expect when playing 1 v 1 against faster decks was that Liesa has fared surprisingly well, but still seems a bit on the slow side for me. Right now the CMC (non-lands avg) is just below 3.0. Pretty much my nine other commander decks range between 2.00 and 2.85 (averaging 2.50). I really enjoy the idea of Rule of Law and Archon of Emeria to slow things down, but other than that I'm game. Have any ideas on focusing it? https://archidekt.com/decks/1005847#Lie ... our_Wings I'm currently running a weak version of lifegain and I feel like it's not enough. Additionally, I already run a non-Walking Ballista lifegain version of Heliod, Sun-Crowned and an aristocrats Ayara, First of Locthwain deck. So, I'm actually thinking I'll pass on a heavy lifegain theme and take out the soul sisters, etc. Do you think there's a potential build that uses pillowfort (Ghostly Prison, Windborn Muse, Norn's Annex) and heavy board wipes in the cards? I was thinking I could try to find more asymmetric board wipes...maybe. Or try to use some creatures that could withstand wipes. IDK!! Ugghhh...

I also wanted to ask about two specific cards. Light of Promise seems decent in this deck, but puts a huge two-for-one target on any creature it's attached to. What are your thoughts on replacing it with Duelist's Heritage? It may not grow any one specific creature obese, but it's more flexible as to which creature you choose, it's less targetable, and can also be used during your opponent's turns.

Cheers!!

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

Ruiner wrote:
3 years ago
I've definitely noticed a bit of irrational targeting of Liesa. Even from decks that just play 1 or 2 cards a turn, not just the spell slingers looking to cast a bunch every turn. I've had a few games where the life tax hits 8 after a long grinding game, which can be tough (I once had to use Beacon of Immortality when I had a single digit life total just to be able to cast Liesa and not die). It isn't a problem every game of course.

My singles preorder for Kaldheim came in recently so I'm definitely going to be revising some things soon. Valkyrie Harbinger seems super worthwhile to try to fit in, and the extra lifelink source definitely won't hurt.

I totally get wanting to minimize the colorless lands.
Guess people really do not like the idea of losing a few points of health. I played one game in which Liesa was basically keeping a Chulane deck in check, but my other two opponents were heavily considering to remove Liesa (I talked them out of it - they were basically casting one or two spells a turn and were not in killing range yet). You will not regret playing Harbinger, she is a house! Enables herself, and if you played Liesa the turn before you played Harbinger you get an angel right away. Great value and pressure.
EonAon wrote:
3 years ago
Gisela, the Broken Blade Don't need the other creature for meld, just her. Since first strike, lifelink, and flying are pretty efficient on a 4cc creature. Kinda $ though.
Fumigate
Kaya's Wrath wraths that gain you life to fuel the beast

I'm personally tempted by Crypt Ghast just to get more off exsanguinate and debt with a touch of extra mana and a decent extort.
I also agree that the exquisite blood combo, while it works, is just too much cheese.
Ooooh, Gisela would definitely be another strong beater that fits the mould of my deck. If you play a slightly top-end heavier angel tribal version I would definitely play her sister too. I feel Fumigate and Kaya's Wrath would not really do it for me. Gaining a few points of health does not do all that much (Kaya's Wrath only gains me health for my own blown up creatures, and I am not a deck that goes super-wide). I would rather play a Wrath of God or Damnation] if I want to play another board clear. A little bit easier to cast.

I quickly threw together and alternative build for ChocoDude that utilises Crypt Ghast. I think the card is pretty strong in the right build (and one that runs Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + some ways to get it. In my midrange build Ghast would probably be obsolete, it does not really ramp towards anything (for this reason I will take out the Keeper of the Accord - a strong card, but just not all that impressive in the list I am playing).

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
I've been following this thread since the beginning. I dig your idea of heavy beaters with lifelink and a very mild stax subtheme. My deck is unfortunately very convoluted and unfocused at the moment as I'm having a hard time deciding which way I want to take it: lifegain, big mana, hatebears & stax, ughhh. I think it's analysis paralysis as I've printed up a bunch of proxies and have been playtesting A LOT against my other decks in a 1 v 1 fashion, for now. I tend to enjoy playing faster decks, so this is a break for me and perhaps that's why I'm struggling. What I didn't expect when playing 1 v 1 against faster decks was that Liesa has fared surprisingly well, but still seems a bit on the slow side for me. Right now the CMC (non-lands avg) is just below 3.0. Pretty much my nine other commander decks range between 2.00 and 2.85 (averaging 2.50). I really enjoy the idea of Rule of Law and Archon of Emeria to slow things down, but other than that I'm game. Have any ideas on focusing it? https://archidekt.com/decks/1005847#Lie ... our_Wings I'm currently running a weak version of lifegain and I feel like it's not enough. Additionally, I already run a non-Walking Ballista lifegain version of Heliod, Sun-Crowned and an aristocrats Ayara, First of Locthwain deck. So, I'm actually thinking I'll pass on a heavy lifegain theme and take out the soul sisters, etc. Do you think there's a potential build that uses pillowfort (Ghostly Prison, Windborn Muse, Norn's Annex) and heavy board wipes in the cards? I was thinking I could try to find more asymmetric board wipes...maybe. Or try to use some creatures that could withstand wipes. IDK!! Ugghhh...

I also wanted to ask about two specific cards. Light of Promise seems decent in this deck, but puts a huge two-for-one target on any creature it's attached to. What are your thoughts on replacing it with Duelist's Heritage? It may not grow any one specific creature obese, but it's more flexible as to which creature you choose, it's less targetable, and can also be used during your opponent's turns.

Cheers!!
Thank you for following, I am glad people appreciate this thread! I think your version tries to do too much at once. It has big mana finishers, some lifegain effects that do not really have a payoff (if you play cards like the Soul Sisters, I would put in cards like Crested Sunmare and some aggressive drain options in cards like Indulging Patrician. Some cards like Revenge of Ravens are cute, but they do not really stop your opponents from attacking you and I feel the drain is too weak... unless you play versus opponents that go wide and attack but do not alpha strike? Don't worry, many paths are viable for Liesa. Just give everything a try and see what you like and how focused you want your strategy to be. Try playing the deck online in pods if you want to see how it lines up against other decks (I mainly use Cockatrice + Discord for that purpose).

Light of Promise is high risk/high reward. I was running Sunbond as well and I am still running Cradle of Vitality. If you have two lifelinkers on the battlefield creatures grow extremely fast. I have to see how often I am able to connect with Light of Promise, and how much damage I can deal with it. If it performs well, it will stay in. If no, out it goes. At the moment I am not sure though. Duelist's Heritage is a strong card, especially if your opponents are aggressive towards each other so you can get more value out of it. I can see it perform well, but I am not sure how it compares to Light of Promise damage-wise.
Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Alternative (Sorted by Role & CMC)

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:

Yeah, I think a more defensive version definitely has potential. I brewed a decklist utilising some pillowfort cards, more removal + disruption, and a bit more ramp options and big mana finishers. It keep the drain options with Kambal and Sower of Discord (I should add this card to my Midrange build!!!) and Archfiend of Despair for heavy damage. Both demons pair well with the drain finishers too. Note that this is a very rough draft.

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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

Thank you for responding! Yes, please keep this thread up. I appreciate the work you've put into it and I figured I'd chime in too so more folks would hopefully add to the thread as well. Yes, you nailed it as far as my theme being too loose and scattered. I really need to settle on one main theme and accept the limitations that will come with it against certain archetypes. I figure once I settle on a main theme and get a few actual games in then I'll be able to chime in more about this commander and various cards.

I've never heard of Cockatrice before. Do you have to buy online cards to play it? I've avoided playing online as I'd rather possess something (pieces of paper with text and artwork on them) than buy digital "cards"? Also, I haven't used Discord before. I guess I should check that out too. I HAVE used SpellTable to play paper magic online with one friend that lives 1000 miles away here in the US, but it's kind of janky.

As for the lifegain theme, I'm pretty much running all the cards I'd need in Liesa in my Heliod deck already including Crested Sunmare and I don't really want to buy more copies of those cards or break up Heliod for them. And I totally get why you recommended the Sunmare. It's GREAT!! I really like Archangel of Thune too and actually have two copies of it that's why it's in Liesa, but if I don't go the lifegain route maybe I should take it out.

I like some aspects of the deck you brewed up. I think I'll incorporate a few in and go that way. I use Tragic Arrogance in my Heliod deck already to decent effect. Hadn't thought about Single Combat, but that looks good. I have a copy of that too. I also like Dismantling Wave. Thanks for the ideas!! I may not play quite as many finishers as they're all super high CMC, so I can lower my overall CMC closer to 3.00.

What are your thoughts on Knight of the White Orchid vs Keeper of the Accord vs Cartographer's Hawk? I feel like the Keeper is a bit slow and I have a Knight coming to me soon. The Cartographer's Hawk is slower than the Knight, but is repeatable.

I probably will add in some recursion like Sun Titan and Sevinne's Reclamation, but not Volrath's Stronghold as I can't afford that anymore. Prices are ridiculous these days!!

I like the idea of using Tainted Sigil especially after an Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless, so I'll keep that in. And Sower of Discord is really a nice option with those two drainers. Great idea!! What do you think about Resolute Archangel? It could work really well with Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose and Sanguine Bond. I do not own nor plan to use Exquisite Blood for that combo however. Children of Korlis and Dire Fleet Ravager could work here too. Hmmm...maybe this is the start of my theme? These are all mostly higher CMC cards though. Hmmm.....

Either way, I've got new ideas to think about and to try. I need just a few higher CMC finishers and more lower to the ground cards for protection and disruption.

Thanks sooo much for the ideas!! Cheers!!

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Post by EonAon » 3 years ago

I would concede the point on Kayas wrath since as you said it only counts your own creatures. Fumigate I would argue since it counts your opponents creatures and if anyone in your playgroup plays token strategies or go wide decks you will gain way more life from it.

On Gisela, I really wouldn't run both, one for a technical reason and the other from a utility standpoint. While Angel tribal could be a thing having both on the field at end step actually demands you meld them since its a must not a may so any +1 or other things manipulated on are lost. The utility standpoint is that Gisela is much more utility in this deck over Bruna. Bruna can and will bring back a angel creature and or a human to your battlefield and there are plenty of them in this deck true. But Gisela is basically a turn quicker version of our commander lifelink angel (sans tax ability) that this deck can always use for the life payments and just stabilizing in general. Brisela, Voice of Nightmares while a decent tax effect overall will not stop the bigger plays like that of any of the 4cc+ wraths that exist nor some of the other odder removal players on a tighter budget occasionally use. If you are truly going to remove Keeper of the Accord, Gisela is the sub I would try first.

Dualist Heritage can be used on your opponents creatures so long as they meet the conditions. Using it on opposing commanders against opposing players who are being even more obnoxious then Liesa is at that moment, seems like a fine use of resources. Admittedly this probably depends more on your playgroup composition and politics. :)

Another card you may like if you have not seen it is Drannith Magistrate it wont effect you and if you play it after a nuke somehow no more opposing commanders or certain yard shenanigan's.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
I've never heard of Cockatrice before. Do you have to buy online cards to play it? I've avoided playing online as I'd rather possess something (pieces of paper with text and artwork on them) than buy digital "cards"? Also, I haven't used Discord before. I guess I should check that out too. I HAVE used SpellTable to play paper magic online with one friend that lives 1000 miles away here in the US, but it's kind of janky.
Nah, Cockatrice is completely free. You download the client and then you can use it to connect to servers and play with friends/strangers/through pods set up in Discord. The program supports most of the stuff that you can do in a paper game of magic, but you have to do everything manually (although great shortcuts exist). It takes a little getting used to and it looks a bit clunky, but after a while you get used to it. You should give it a try, if you do not like it you can always deinstall it.
I like some aspects of the deck you brewed up. I think I'll incorporate a few in and go that way. I use Tragic Arrogance in my Heliod deck already to decent effect. Hadn't thought about Single Combat, but that looks good. I have a copy of that too. I also like Dismantling Wave. Thanks for the ideas!! I may not play quite as many finishers as they're all super high CMC, so I can lower my overall CMC closer to 3.00.
Suprisingly enough, the big mana finisher deck has a CMC of 3.26 overall, which is pretty reasonable (the midrange build basically sits at 3.00). Sometimes CMC is not super relevant, you do not really want to chain spells in most Orzhov decks anyway. Instead, you want to make sure you have relevant plays available to you every turn.
What are your thoughts on Knight of the White Orchid vs Keeper of the Accord vs Cartographer's Hawk? I feel like the Keeper is a bit slow and I have a Knight coming to me soon. The Cartographer's Hawk is slower than the Knight, but is repeatable.
Yeah, I am going to remove Keeper of the Accord from my midrange version. In there it does not really ramp towards anything and I can't really take advantage of tokens that the Keeper creates. In the other decklist Keeper is a lot better, since you want to build towards big mana for your wincons. That's why I included Smothering Tithe as well. I am actually not sure whether Cartographer's Hawk is better or worse than Knight of the White Orchid. I think what makes Hawk attractive to me is that it is easier to cast. I'll try them both out in the list and see which one Iike more. Perhaps I should even just play another rock, since I cannot blink or recurse Knight for extra value.
I like the idea of using Tainted Sigil especially after an Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless, so I'll keep that in. And Sower of Discord is really a nice option with those two drainers. Great idea!! What do you think about Resolute Archangel? It could work really well with Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose and Sanguine Bond. I do not own nor plan to use Exquisite Blood for that combo however. Children of Korlis and Dire Fleet Ravager could work here too. Hmmm...maybe this is the start of my theme? These are all mostly higher CMC cards though. Hmmm.....
That's a cool direction to take! If you scroll up a bit, Ruiner has a neat decklist with some interesting card choices (see Axis of Mortality).
Either way, I've got new ideas to think about and to try. I need just a few higher CMC finishers and more lower to the ground cards for protection and disruption. Thanks sooo much for the ideas!! Cheers!!
Happy brewing!

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Ruiner
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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

Cartographer's Hawk seems incredibly slow and clunky. You have to play it, wait a turn and then hope it can connect. Then you have to replay it to get further use.

Keeper of the Accord is twice the mana cost of the Hawk, but doesn't require nearly as many hoops to jump through and the tokens you get can always be good fodder for opponents' Grave Pact effects or just chump blocking. Keeper can potentially get you two lands in one turn cycle, which is far quicker than the Hawk. To get two lands from the Hawk you have to still pay 4 mana and it takes 3 or 4 turns to pull off unless you can give it haste.

If Keeper feels too expensive, and you need some mana production elements, I'd personally just add another mana rock over the Hawk.

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

I revamped the deck with several proxies toward something more of a high risk/high reward big mana variant. See for yourself: https://archidekt.com/decks/1005847#Lie ... Your_Wings Now I just need to playtest it. I'm definitely going to try out Axis of Mortality. Thinking about adding Beacon of Immortality, Platinum Angel, and Sower of Discord still. First I just need to playtest it and see if I even enjoy this version. I don't actually own a Tithe, so I'm replacing it with a less costly Gift of Estates. That'll probably work just fine for me. I actually have a couple of unused B or W fetches, so I may add them in too. Thanks for sharing ideas!!

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EonAon
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Post by EonAon » 3 years ago

Ruiner wrote:
3 years ago
Cartographer's Hawk seems incredibly slow and clunky. You have to play it, wait a turn and then hope it can connect. Then you have to replay it to get further use.

Keeper of the Accord is twice the mana cost of the Hawk, but doesn't require nearly as many hoops to jump through and the tokens you get can always be good fodder for opponents' Grave Pact effects or just chump blocking. Keeper can potentially get you two lands in one turn cycle, which is far quicker than the Hawk. To get two lands from the Hawk you have to still pay 4 mana and it takes 3 or 4 turns to pull off unless you can give it haste.

If Keeper feels too expensive, and you need some mana production elements, I'd personally just add another mana rock over the Hawk.
Its more likely because its a kind of do nothing card. Sure the abilities can go off over and over but if the conditions aren't met you have a 4 drop your always reluctant to attack with since if it get removed somehow you kind of kick yourself about losing a card advantage engine. Its why Angelic Accord is just alright in this deck but Valkyrie Harbinger is better since it enables itself more. Admittedly harbinger is more vulnerable to removal but overall it just does more.

This is why I really get reluctant to play Felidar Sovereign in lifegain decks. Sure theoretically you can attack with him depending on board state, but getting him after on a life downturn never feels like you can use him to the full ability and win.

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