Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Combo Midrange

EonAon · Post by **EonAon** » 3 years ago

Here is my variant for the thread. Still a semi work in progress.

Decklist

Approximate Total Cost:

Yeah I know I'm not making any friends at the table. Still more fun than a tax audit.

Ruiner · Post by **Ruiner** » 3 years ago

Regarding the above list:

I feel like Rampage of the Valkyries is not going to get enough triggers without a much bigger angel component in the deck. Grave Pact and/or Dictate of Erebos would be better overall if that kind of effect is something you are looking for since they trigger for creatures regardless of their type.

Cleaving Reaper doesn't seem like it will be doing much. It is a recurring creature but you don't seem to have enough angels to really recur it much. If you want another mid range flier that is also an angel I'd recommend trying Linvala, Keeper of Silence to mess with a variety of things, or maybe Exalted Angel for more life gaining. Or, just replace it with Phyrexian Reclamation so you can easily recur any creature.

Unspeakable Symbol seems awfully life intensive. Which could be fine in some decks but your aren't really running any life swap/adjustment shenanigans like Axis of Mortality, Magus of the Mirror, or Repay in Kind to really take advantage of it fully.

Walking Ballista seems kind of random. It combos with Heliod but you aren't running a ton of Tutor effects to reliably pull that off so I'd think it ends up being a bit lackluster a decent amount of the time.

I'd definitely recommend Blackblade Reforged in a Liesa deck. It makes her significantly bigger which means significantly more lifegain from her and you threaten a commander damage kill easier.

BlackbirdPlaysMTG · Post by **BlackbirdPlaysMTG** » 3 years ago

Thanks for all the replies, discussion and decklists! I was not able to react to everything in the past few days, but I will try to do so in the coming week.

EonAon wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Its more likely because its a kind of do nothing card. Sure the abilities can go off over and over but if the conditions aren't met you have a 4 drop your always reluctant to attack with since if it get removed somehow you kind of kick yourself about losing a card advantage engine. Its why Angelic Accord is just alright in this deck but Valkyrie Harbinger is better since it enables itself more. Admittedly harbinger is more vulnerable to removal but overall it just does more.

This is why I really get reluctant to play Felidar Sovereign in lifegain decks. Sure theoretically you can attack with him depending on board state, but getting him after on a life downturn never feels like you can use him to the full ability and win.

Yes, this was my line of thinking. I think that Keeper of the Accord is still worth it in big mana lists, but only after you have added a card like Smothering Tithe first. I also agree on the Felidar Sovereign. It is a good win condition, but only if your deck is build around staying above 40 consistently and if you can flash it in through cards like Scout's Warning and Vedalken Orrery at the end of your opponents turn.

BlackbirdPlaysMTG · Post by **BlackbirdPlaysMTG** » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I revamped the deck with several proxies toward something more of a high risk/high reward big mana variant. See for yourself: https://archidekt.com/decks/1005847#Lie ... Your_Wings Now I just need to playtest it. I'm definitely going to try out Axis of Mortality. Thinking about adding Beacon of Immortality, Platinum Angel, and Sower of Discord still. First I just need to playtest it and see if I even enjoy this version. I don't actually own a Tithe, so I'm replacing it with a less costly Gift of Estates. That'll probably work just fine for me. I actually have a couple of unused B or W fetches, so I may add them in too. Thanks for sharing ideas!!

Cool list! This definitely goes into one strategy deeper than the decklist earlier. Please let me know how this deck works out for you after you have playtested it.

Haman · Post by **Haman** » 3 years ago

I played kambal and proxied Liesa for awhile to test.. I can confirmed the hate for her is real... The ideal consderation for a liesa's 99 would be cards with lifegain attached to their effect...
eg removal - deathgrasp,
Ramp - pristine talisman

My kambal deck is voodoo theme, very similar to chocodude... life exchange and sower.
I ran axis of mortality too, but the card is either too slow or attract alot of attention..
I have not be able to make sower of discord work...though i like the idea of flashing it to punish ppl for attacking me

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 3 years ago

Hey Haman,

Could you post your decklist or a link to it? I'd love to get some more "voodoo" ideas for Liesa. I have only playtested it in 1 v 1 so far and that was myself vs myself; against a fast Ezuri, Renegade Leader elfball deck. So far, Liesa has won 2 games, lost one, and drew the fourth. The draw was leaning more towards an Ezuri win, but I had to cut the game short. I'm hoping to get a 3-player game or two in with friends this coming Friday. In the meantime, I'm going to playtest it 1 v 1 versus my Alela and Atla Palani decks.

I've been wondering how some of the more expensive CMC (wait!...MV...mana value) cards would play such as Axis of Mortality. So far it hasn't come up. I did a web search for other cards folks were playing in a more voodoo theme. Thanks for sharing your Sower of Discord experience. Do you have any experience with Fraying Omnipotence, Scytheclaw, Eternity Vessel, Invincible Hymn,, Reverse the Sands, or Dire Fleet Ravager?

EonAon · Post by **EonAon** » 3 years ago

Tree of Perdition Is another. But I would only play two of them and if your playing Angel of Destiny and any of the the others alongside Sorin Markov cap at three total including the mentioned cards. The reasoning is people get kinda twitchy when you start modifying or playing ring around the rosy with life totals. You can draw incredible table aggro once you go down that path. I would also NOT recommend Fraying Omnipotence since it hits the user as well and unless your group has alot of greedy card drawers your always going to get a backfoot to recovery than the others.

Ruiner wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Regarding the above list:

I feel like Rampage of the Valkyries is not going to get enough triggers without a much bigger angel component in the deck. Grave Pact and/or Dictate of Erebos would be better overall if that kind of effect is something you are looking for since they trigger for creatures regardless of their type.

Cleaving Reaper doesn't seem like it will be doing much. It is a recurring creature but you don't seem to have enough angels to really recur it much. If you want another mid range flier that is also an angel I'd recommend trying Linvala, Keeper of Silence to mess with a variety of things, or maybe Exalted Angel for more life gaining. Or, just replace it with Phyrexian Reclamation so you can easily recur any creature.

Unspeakable Symbol seems awfully life intensive. Which could be fine in some decks but your aren't really running any life swap/adjustment shenanigans like Axis of Mortality, Magus of the Mirror, or Repay in Kind to really take advantage of it fully.

Walking Ballista seems kind of random. It combos with Heliod but you aren't running a ton of Tutor effects to reliably pull that off so I'd think it ends up being a bit lackluster a decent amount of the time.

I'd definitely recommend Blackblade Reforged in a Liesa deck. It makes her significantly bigger which means significantly more lifegain from her and you threaten a commander damage kill easier.

I saw rampage as a "stop killing my commander" card. But yeah your correct that Pact and or dictate are overall better. I'm gonna miss the token it produces.

Cleaving Reaper is also supported by the rest of the deck. Casting the commander and the two token generators. Admittedly I might switch in Emeria's Call or add a few other angels to make it work better. Something to fiddle with/for.

Unspeakable is basically for general pump. Other than a handful of small effects this deck has so many lifegain enabled creatures or ways for the ones that dont have lifegain to gain such that using one enchantment for a perma 1+ seemed like a decent trade for 3 life. I actually generate more life on average than mana.

On ballista yeah again correct and maybe since I'm playing heliods hall and sun titan I should switch it out for Light of Promise. Both recurs it.

BlackbirdPlaysMTG · Post by **BlackbirdPlaysMTG** » 3 years ago

EonAon wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Here is my variant for the thread. Still a semi work in progress.

[...]

Yeah I know I'm not making any friends at the table. Still more fun than a tax audit.

Nice list. A bit more table-wide drain/ping, and I like the Witch and Vilis.

I think Rampage of the Valkyries is not necessarily better than Grave Pact/Dictate. You are not going wide anyway (and you cannot really activate it at will), so it is hard to gain value from an effect like that. Rampage is essentially a Serra Angel with an upside that works with your commander, the token it makes and some creatures in your list. If you look at it that way it becomes solid, but it would function better in lists that play more angels as an Karmic Justice type of effect. Walking Ballista could be worth as a game-ender if you have a few ways to tutor it. If you decide to go that route, I would want my Heliod to pull its weight though (be online and trigger reasonable amount of the time).

I mostly agree with the other points that Ruiner made. Blackblade Reforged was in an earlier version too, but it just does not really do anything on-theme. I guess I run Light of Promise in that slot, but I probably should be running Blackblade (also less vulnerable to removal). Blackblade is a good way to turn Liesa into a two-turn clock.

BlackbirdPlaysMTG · Post by **BlackbirdPlaysMTG** » 3 years ago

Haman wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I have not be able to make sower of discord work...though i like the idea of flashing it to punish ppl for attacking me

Sower of Discord draws a lot of removal I guess? Or do you find it lackluster?

Haman · Post by **Haman** » 3 years ago

to chocodude:
40 lands
14 ramp - 10 rocks+ solemn
14 card draw/tutor - 8 card drawer + 6 tutor
11 removal -8 mass + 3 single target
4 reanimation
4 life exchange
misc - speaker of the heavens, liesa, sower of discord, debt to the deathless, harsh justice, teysa, batwing brume, phyrexian processor, story circle, ephemerate, malakir rebirth, arcobatic maneuver.

this is a rough structure of my kambal deck... My plan a is to reach the mana to cast any of the life exchange cards.. so i ran many rocks...and lands.. All my card drawers draw at least 3 cards.
Plan b is sower of discord plan .. that is when i have alot of life ... and i am going to take all the damage but casting harsh justice or sower of discord as instant to make the attacker pay a hefty price.

to LaHistorica ,
Sower is okay, just that it takes alot of cards to make it work... instant sower of discord is is much better than one you cast in your own turn. Sometimes blink cards to change target player to link... or reanimation to bring back...

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 3 years ago

Haman, you definitely must've been running a super low creature count them with all those mass removal spells. We're they most symmetric or did you have some asymmetric wraths in there?

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 3 years ago

Pay no attention to that symmetric/asymmetric board wipe question. I'm not sure what I was thinking yesterday. It really shouldn't matter considering you're running very creatures anyway and you have the four reanimation spells.

Which four life exchange spells did you find to work the best for you? Currently, I'm running Tree of Perdition, Resolute Archangel, and Oketra's Last Mercy. And I'm guessing you don't even count the latter two as "life exchange".

EonAon · Post by **EonAon** » 3 years ago

Changelog Date

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-1 Orzhov Basilica
+1 Blind Obedience
+1 Agadeem, the Undercrypt
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Dictate of Erebos
+1 Emeria, Shattered Skyclave
-1 Cleaving Reaper
-1 Rampage of the Valkyries
+1 Exsanguinate
-1 Mortify
+1 Resplendent Angel

So as you see I changed this in my deck and altered my above post so I'm not spamming my decklist over and over in the thread. I really cant find a good reason to play Blackblade. Its not that it isn't relevant nor powerful on my commander. Its just that of the nine targets I have and two of which have conditional availability, I cant see playing it just for that small chance of those seven. With a seven equip on non legendary it become a really late game I wish card.

Some other cards I have been looking at are

Since I'm playing Heliods Hall I had a little brainfart in that since our commander is a removal magnet why not make them spend twice by using the umbras. It still needs testing and I fully concede that Feldar if not the best but since it can come back from sun titan onto titan itself, and then move itself over to another creatures (I.E. our commander) its worthy of consideration.

All that glitters is another thing that both heliods hall and titan can bring back and the amount of artifacts and enchants in my deck means that itself alongside Light of Promise means more hits that are bigger on Liesa or other creatures.

Basri seems like it be a decent workhorse in the deck since it would allow things like Kambal to attack and may allow more damage and lifegain on our bigger creatures. Being able to be brought back by titan is another plus.

Sheltering is just a combat trick and could prove useful to may of our creatures.

RogHimself · Post by **RogHimself** » 3 years ago

Deleted.

RogHimself · Post by **RogHimself** » 3 years ago

Deleted.

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 3 years ago

Your list is partway between mine and LaHistorica's. I like both of your lists and I may shift mine back a touch more your way. I've gone the route of 8 board wipes, adding some Liesa buff with Duelist's Heritage and Blackblade Reforged (I may add Light of Promise), and big life gain effects in the form of: Resolute Archangel, Oketra's Last Mercy, Revival // Revenge, Beacon of Immortality, Eternity Vessel. I ran Quietus Spike, which has been hit or miss but mostly made Liesa more of a target. If I add more flying creatures back in, I may try it again.

I'm running Tree of Perdition, which I managed to connect on in one of only two multiplayer games I've got in the last month to great effect. However, that move made me the bogey-man for game two. So, I suspect that Liesa will now be a primary/archenemy type target from now on. The hate is real. My list has been in constant flux as I'm trying to find the right balance of things. I may remove Resolute Archangel for smaller lifelink beater/deterrent like Nighthawk Scavenger. Eternity Vessel has been pretty good in 1 v 1, but I'm not sure it would survive a full round in multiplayer to give me any benefit, so that might get the axe instead. I'd like to add Wound Reflection back in. Crypt Ghast will probably come out since I've taken out the Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless.

If budget doesn't matter, I think Necropotence would be better than Phyrexian Arena, especially with Font of Agonies. If you had access to Mana Confluence. Ditto.

Oh yeah, I tried out Kaya's Wrath and just didn't like it as much as Fumigate since you only benefit from your own creatures dying.

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 3 years ago

Questions for the general Liesa thread: Which have you had more success with Wound Reflection or Painful Quandary? I'd like to run one, but not both. Which one has been a quicker target for removal?

EonAon · Post by **EonAon** » 3 years ago

Well both in my opinion

. To narrow it down it would be Quandry has the higher removal potential since its ether life or card for any spell cast. Whereas reflection means you or somebody else has to actually do something to the group to actually trigger instead of just casting cards. Also 5cc to 6cc means your always likely to play reflection after Liesa.

Ruiner · Post by **Ruiner** » 3 years ago

I'm a big fan of Wound Reflection.

While it is in play, it can be an incentive for enemies to attack each other since they know their damage is essentially doubled against anyone except for you.

Assuming you aren't missing land drops, Wound Reflection comes down the turn after you play Liesa, so the first turn she can swing she can take advantage of it.

In subsequent turns after it hits play, if you can drop something like Gray Merchant of Asphodel or play Exsanguinate it can be pretty sweet.

Painful Quandary is great too, but if I had to only include one or the other I'd leave it out. Quandary can also occasionally backfire by being a free discard outlet for some decks to take advantage of.

It really probably comes down to what kinds of decks you anticipate seeing most often as well.

RogHimself · Post by **RogHimself** » 3 years ago

Yeah I agree with EonAon that Wound Reflection is a nice mana-curve play. It also synergizes so much with other cards in the build.

Not too sure if I agree with it incentivizing enemies to attack each other though.. I think it's in the best interest of all enemies to get the player whose running Wound Reflection - it could go downhill for any of them real fast.

Ruiner · Post by **Ruiner** » 3 years ago

RogHimself wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Not too sure if I agree with it incentivizing enemies to attack each other though.. I think it's in the best interest of all enemies to get the player whose running Wound Reflection - it could go downhill for any of them real fast.

It depends on board states/decks your opponents have at the time and what enchantment removal they have available. In my experience, people do tend to remove Wound Reflection as soon as possible, but if they are lacking enchantment removal and they have the chance to do, for example, 15 damage to you or 30 to another player, this can shift their targets sometimes. It doesn't always work out that way, and killing you is a guaranteed way to remove Wound Reflection if your opponents can't just destroy it, but there are cases where opponents will take advantage of you having it in play.

RogHimself · Post by **RogHimself** » 3 years ago

Another day passed tweaking Liesa's 'buttons', and I feel like it's improving everyday. Would like to share my progress with you.

Liesa: Pain&Gain

Creatures (17)

1 Nullpriest of Oblivion

1 Selfless Spirit

1 Suture Priest

1 Vizkopa Guildmage

1 Athreos, God of Passage

1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation

1 Lurrus of the Dream-Den

1 Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose

1 Erebos, God of the Dead

1 Rhox Faithmender

1 Tree of Perdition

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth

Enchantments (11)

1 Bloodchief Ascension

1 Phyrexian Reclamation

1 Arguel's Blood Fast // Temple of Aclazotz

1 Greed

Artifacts (13)

1 Sol Ring

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

1 Tainted Sigil

1 Well of Lost Dreams

1 Norn's Annex

1 Bolas's Citadel

Instants (12)

1 Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Despark

1 Heliod's Intervention

1 Sejiri Shelter // Sejiri Glacier

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Generous Gift

1 Mortify

1 Riot Control

1 Congregate

1 Hatred

1 Beacon of Immortality

Sorceries (10)

1 Fumigate

1 Command the Dreadhorde

Planeswalkers (1)

1 Sorin Markov

Lands (35)

1 Brightclimb Pathway // Grimclimb Pathway

1 Fetid Heath

9 Plains

11 Swamp

1 War Room

Approximate Total Cost:

So... basically the deck is all about gaining large chunks of life, taking large parts of opponent's life total, or even better: a combination of both. Below I want to demonstrate some synergies and lines of play that the deck is capable of.

Big-pain section

Tree of Perdition - obviously takes a big chunk himself without doing much. Combined with Tainted Remedy we can use his ability a second time effectively by switching his high toughness back to this opponent - basically a 2-turn clock for anyone.
Tainted Remedy - Becomes a laser beam combined with Congregate, Heliod's Intervention and Beacon of Immortality (One-shot kill). Top-tier removal Swords to Plowshares becomes even better with Remedy online. Axis of Mortality can also somehow function as a laser by trading life-totals of two opponents.
Tainted Sigil / Children of Korlis - After gaining a huge chunk of life by triggering their abilities, we are able to finish opponents easily combined with either Sanguine Bond, Vizkopa Guildmage or Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose. Obviously the big life-gain spells mentioned above will work wonders here as well. Command the Dreadhorde grabbing a bunch of creatures, one of them being Children of Korlis is awesome since we can sac Korlis straight away and get all life back.
Axis of Mortality - Drop our life-total to 1 in our upkeep on instant speed with Hatred, Necropotence, Unspeakable Symbol (or K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth combined with Greed) and switch our 1 life with an opponent - GG. Place the counters of Unspeakable on one of our life gain creatures and we are set up for future turns as well.
Revival // Revenge and Wound Reflection drain 100% of a life total, no matter how high.
Sorin Markov - Ouch.

Synergy section

Tainted Sigil and Children of Korlis can get huge combined with Bolas's Citadel, Hatred, Unspeakable Symbol, Necropotence and Command the Dreadhorde. Trigging either of these will undo all life lost. Definition of Overpowered?
Bolas's Citadel - Finding one of our big life gain spells like Congregate, Beacon of Immortality, Riot Control or Revival // Revenge on top, means we can keep on giving gas.
Bolas's Citadel - Can manipulate the top-deck (remove lands) with Erebos, God of the Dead, Greed, Arguel's Blood Fast or Necropotence to keep going. Or use Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood or Read the Bones for that reason, since we will have enough mana when we are casting with life instead anyway.
Bloodchief Ascension - This card loves opponents taking 2 damage to get online: Norn's Annex Liesa, Shroud of Dusk, Nullpriest of Oblivion, Ankh of Mishra, Kambal, Consul of Allocation, Selfless Spirit and Sorin Markov can help with that. Once online one of our board wipes can get out of hand quickly. Especially with Tragic Arrogance because it target's non-creatures as well.
Wound Reflection / Rhox Faithmender - These two cards just take all the stuff mentioned over the top.
Lurrus of the Dream-Den - Combines perfectly with cards we want to trigger as many times as possible: Children of Korlis, Martyr of Sands, Selfless Spirit, Wayfarer's Bauble, or simply for returning a finisher like Vizkopa Guildmage. Phyrexian Reclamation serves as a form of redundancy, just like Revival // Revenge.
Deathgreeter / Blood Artist - Combined with one of our board wipes this can get us a big chunk of life (hello Fumigate)when facing a go-wide strategy. Suture Priest also punishes these strategies. Make our own creatures indestructible with Selfless Spirit and finish someone off with Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose.
Martyr of Sands - Many of our non-permanent spells are white: these tend to stay in hand longer, waiting for the right moment, so Martyr should get some value always. Or sac it right before I have to discard all goodness taken by Necropotence. Most of our permanents on the other hand are black - which serves Gray Merchant of Asphodel. The latter of which is a sweet Nullpriest of Oblivion re-animation target, after he left the field by a board wipe/chumpblock (5 mana Merchant into 6 mana Nullpriest - great follow-up, who needs Liesa anyway? ).

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 3 years ago

I really like where you're taking this Rog. I may incorporate of few of your ideas.

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 3 years ago

Rog, I noticed you removed Font of Agonies from the deck. Was it too slow? Also, Erebos, God of the Dead is in opposition to Tainted Remedy. I know the likelihood of drawing them both most games is low, but I'm throwing that out there.

Ruiner · Post by **Ruiner** » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Rog, I noticed you removed Font of Agonies from the deck. Was it too slow? Also, Erebos, God of the Dead is in opposition to Tainted Remedy. I know the likelihood of drawing them both most games is low, but I'm throwing that out there.

In my experience, it is totally worth running both Tainted Remedy and Erebos, God of the Dead as it increases your chances of drawing that sort of anti-lifegain effect, and you can always hold onto the redundant card in case the one you play is removed. Both work well with Axis of Mortality.

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